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Angry Wedding Photog (long)

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Andrew said:
Surely we can come to that agreement?
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Surely. The complaint was about the photographer 1) being rude and 2) without reason.

You, and most of the people in this thread, sound like they'd have handled the situation much differently - if there even was a situation. Nobody would have had anything to complain about.
 
Well you have no contract with her - there was no agreement between you and no consideration - so there is no way you were violating her contract, unless there were terms and conitions on the wedding invitation which Ts&Cs you were deemed to have accepted by attending.

Next time, tell her to take a hike.

Duncan
dbpix said:
"your violating my contract by taking photos so please stop"
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Ed Halley said:
Why limit the photography consumer with meager
choices from one "official" photographer?
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No kidding! I had two photographers :)

Honestly I told the other people to stay out of their way and said I didn't want a lot of flashes doing off during the ceremony since I had two videographers as well.

I had a someone send me injet prints from their P&S camera in the mail. I think they probably thought that they were amazing, but the shots were really bad to mediocre. Another friend wanted to email me even more pictures from his camera. I already had over 700 pictures covering everything I cared about and 60 Gb of video footage.
 
yes but according to the same contract the photographer most likely has the exclusive. (Without that I wouldn't accept the assignment). so, we're back to the starting point. Maybe you better choose a (professional) photographer that will shoot with all the guests, but that will include technical difficulties affecting the results (bad lighting, people lookink at many different directions and so on) : in a word, in order to get good quality pictures you have no other choices than let the professional photographer performing under the best conditions possible. not letting the guests bother him/her :)

Do that and the album will come out good, don't do that and the album will come out not good.
 
If you are not the hired pro, lugging a large camera to a wedding is,to say the least, ostentatious. You come to weddings to witness the event, not to show off your toys. You brought it to get better shots? That's what the pro was hired to do. You want personal shots? Use a P&S, they're smaller and don't draw attention to you. And you don't look like some self absorbed techie playing with their gizmos.

To the professional photographer, an event like a wedding is their bread and butter. That's how they keep their family fed. It's professional courtesy not to horn in on their arena.

I chose software development for a profession, so I can afford nice photographic gear without having to depend on it for income. That doesn't mean that I should show disregard for people who do depend upon photography for income. This is true not just of photography, but of any profession - the first mark of a professional is courtesy towards the working person.
 
If you are in the photography industry, would you mind if I followed you to work, took your set up shots, and then gave them to your client for free?? How long do you think you would be in business then?

Keith
Knox / streetkid said:
I am not a wedding photographer but IMV she obviously doubts her
own ability and afraid you may upstage her by delivering some
wonderful photos for free. I do agree with what some have said
regarding making it clear that they are the official photographer
so people are aware and listen to them for the obvious shots. I
have seen some lousy 'pay' wedding shots, next to some wonderful
free shots taken by a friend with a camera. I would think if the
photographer is confident and has nothing to be uptight about . . .
they should care less.
--
Knox
http://www.pbase.com/streetkid
http://www.arcadiarocks.com
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--
Do, or do not. There is not try!
 
Beautiful put!

Keith
marcel siegle said:
marcel siegle said:
assume this would have happened in an other profession. Lets say
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you are a lawyer and your about to cross examine a witness, and
someone from the audience gets up and starts to cross examine the
witness, that would be unacceptable, right? Or lets say you are
doing a commercial shoot and the art director brought his own
camera and starts shooting, that would be very distracting and
counter productive, right? So why it is so hard to understand not
to interfere with a photographer during a wedding?
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I like the way you think. I couldn't have said it better. I went from pro photography to software development for (a) better income to support my family and to buy photo toys and (b) more regular working hours (what a joke that was!).

I hate to hear horror stories like this because nice honest wedding photographers suffer collatoral damage. Amateurs, please remember that the pro is there to do a job, not discuss equipment with you. I sympathize with your interest, but believe it or not, lots of pros don't want to talk shop. They want to do their job, then go home and spend time with their famalies. You get to the point that unless it's going to help put food on the table, you're reallyn not interested. Lynrd Skynrd captured it well with "Don't Ask Me 'Bout My Business".

Also, the only group with bigger egos than some pros are some amateurs.

The bigger gift you can give the bride is to leave all your photo gear at home and just help them celebrate the event.

Doug
Amateur-Pro-Amateur Again
TrapperJohn said:
If you are not the hired pro, lugging a large camera to a wedding
is,to say the least, ostentatious. You come to weddings to witness
the event, not to show off your toys. You brought it to get better
shots? That's what the pro was hired to do. You want personal
shots? Use a P&S, they're smaller and don't draw attention to you.
And you don't look like some self absorbed techie playing with
their gizmos.

To the professional photographer, an event like a wedding is their
bread and butter. That's how they keep their family fed. It's
professional courtesy not to horn in on their arena.

I chose software development for a profession, so I can afford nice
photographic gear without having to depend on it for income. That
doesn't mean that I should show disregard for people who do depend
upon photography for income. This is true not just of photography,
but of any profession - the first mark of a professional is
courtesy towards the working person.
Click to expand...
 
LOL,

but I couldn't do that because I used to shoot 1Ds with a cheap tamron 28-105 (more or less at the same level of the quantaray...) at weddings and instead of a nice omnibouce I use my hand (because I'm white).. and that not just because I'm cheap (which is alltogheter true), but because I keep losing'em -my hand I can't forget to bring it- so I can't compete about gadgets and shiny accessories. I know that :)
 
Doug MacMillan said:
I like the way you think. I couldn't have said it better. I went
from pro photography to software development for (a) better income
to support my family and to buy photo toys and (b) more regular
working hours (what a joke that was!).

I hate to hear horror stories like this because nice honest wedding
photographers suffer collatoral damage. Amateurs, please remember
that the pro is there to do a job, not discuss equipment with you.
I sympathize with your interest, but believe it or not, lots of
pros don't want to talk shop. They want to do their job, then go
home and spend time with their famalies. You get to the point that
unless it's going to help put food on the table, you're reallyn not
interested. Lynrd Skynrd captured it well with "Don't Ask Me 'Bout
My Business".

Also, the only group with bigger egos than some pros are some
amateurs.
The bigger gift you can give the bride is to leave all your photo
gear at home and just help them celebrate the event.

Doug
Amateur-Pro-Amateur Again
Click to expand...
Take note all you amateurs,whenever theres any event in the world where PRO's are working LEAVE YOUR CAMERA AT HOME.blimey!!
 
TrapperJohn said:
If you are not the hired pro, lugging a large camera to a wedding
is,to say the least, ostentatious. You come to weddings to witness
the event, not to show off your toys. You brought it to get better
shots? That's what the pro was hired to do. You want personal
shots? Use a P&S, they're smaller and don't draw attention to you.
And you don't look like some self absorbed techie playing with
their gizmos.
Click to expand...
He was standing off to the side and not using a flash. I don't see how flashing away with a P&S would be less of a distraction. Was he waving the price tag around? I have to wonder how she would have reacted if he was using, say, a Leica M7--a small, very quiet, unobtrusive, but expensive camera. If in fact he wasn't being a distraction and the pro was getting better shots she shouldn't have felt threatened by his presence. In any case, even if she was right, it sounds like she dealt with it in a rude and unprofessional way.

I'd agree with what you say if in fact he had been distracting the guests--there's no excuse for that--but, since she seemed to be more concerned with the price of the gear than anything else, it sounds more like a case of someone without much faith in their own skills.

--
Mark
http://www.scheuern.com/photoblog/
 
carl english said:
Take note all you amateurs,whenever theres any event in the world
where PRO's are working LEAVE YOUR CAMERA AT HOME.blimey!!
Click to expand...
If the bride and groom didn't ask you to bring your camera, than leave it at home.

The problem is that people want to show off. People want to play with their cameras. That's fine but if you were asked to attend a wedding then attend the wedding, don't work it! If you feel the need to work someone else's gig, ask yourself why.

I have shot wedding videos for a number of people. Each time it was a gift to someone I knew. The quality of the DVD's has gotten many people to refer me work that I have turned down. Unfortunately, I probably do a better job than most of the professionals around here. I really felt bad recently turning down someone and then finding out how they were going to have it done by someone who really doesn't have a clue. But it is not my responsibility to do this for everyone in my area even if they want to pay me.

By the same token. I will not show up at a wedding with my video camera, tripod, wireless lav etc... just to show it off and to show up the videographer there.

I love photography and videography, but they are a passion to be used when appreciated, asked for and for my personal pleasure.

A wedding is a special event. At my wedding I asked people not to use flashes during the ceremony. I had two photographers, and two videographers. I didn't want uncle henry's video tape or pictures and I knew the pros would do a great job, which they did.
 
Mark Scheuern said:
He was standing off to the side and not using a flash. I don't see
how flashing away with a P&S would be less of a distraction. Was he
waving the price tag around? I have to wonder how she would have
reacted if he was using, say, a Leica M7--a small, very quiet,
unobtrusive, but expensive camera. If in fact he wasn't being a
distraction and the pro was getting better shots she shouldn't have
felt threatened by his presence. In any case, even if she was
right, it sounds like she dealt with it in a rude and
unprofessional way.
Click to expand...
Well I could certainly imagine the mirror slap bothering somebody. But I suspect if something like that interrupts your concentration, you may be happier in a studio rather than doing weddings.
Mark Scheuern said:
I'd agree with what you say if in fact he had been distracting the
guests--there's no excuse for that--but, since she seemed to be
more concerned with the price of the gear than anything else, it
sounds more like a case of someone without much faith in their own
skills.
Click to expand...
Yep.
 
waterskier said:
If the bride and groom didn't ask you to bring your camera, than
leave it at home.

The problem is that people want to show off. People want to play
with their cameras. That's fine but if you were asked to attend a
wedding then attend the wedding, don't work it! If you feel the
need to work someone else's gig, ask yourself why.
Click to expand...
People want memories, and furthermore they want their memories, not those that are dictated by somebody else.

Sure, professional photographers are there to document the day for the B&G and yes, potentially sell prints for those who want them... but IMO "if you weren't asked to bring your camera, leave it at home" is a step too far.

I'd guess, that of people that own cameras, 90% use them to take snapshots for their own enjoyment.

Next thing you'll be saying is that anybody that has a camera phone must leave it outside.... we wouldn't want somebody sending an MMS and upsetting the pro.
 
There are three separate issues being discussed here.

Issue One:

The photographer is physically hindered from doing his/her job by a guest. Obviously if someone is hired to do a job, it's in the interest of both the employer and the employee to get that job done quickly and optimally.

When I go to a business site to do, say, a series of portraits of executives, the first thing I do is find out who is the "800 pound gorilla" in the office--who is the person who actually runs things, who has the authority to close off areas, direct traffic (including directing the executives), et cetera. That might be the office manager, the executive assistant, or the executive secretary. If I need to move people or objects, I'll ask that person in charge. If I have to get more time scheduled from an executive, or perhaps use a different venue, I will ask that person in charge. If someone is in my way, I'll ask the person in charge to deal with the situation.

I will NOT get involved with unpleasantness with any of the people who work in that office--it's the job of the person in charge of the office to do that so that I can do what I was hired to do. At a wedding, there is bound to be someone serving the same role--hopefully not the bride, who has other issues to attend to besides watching Aunt Diane (Arbus) or Uncle Elliot (Erwitt). I'd suggest the bride's mother, but I'll bet the person you'd want is an older female on the bride's side of the family.

The photographer is ALWAYS wrong to offend a guest. Period. It's not his place. Ever. It's bad enough in an office situation ("How'd I know that old codger eating his lunch on the conference table was the company president?"). It's a minefield in a social situation. Giving Aunt Diane so much as an angry glare may cause familial complications for years. Sure, some guest need to be offended, but if a guest needs offending, get the resident 800-pound gorilla to do the offending.

Issue Two:

The photographer is emotionally insecure. He doesn't want anyone at the party with a bigger camera than he has. That's primarily a personal problem for which the photographer should see a therapist. If the photographer has a contract for "exclusive" rights to do the photography, the other party probably thinks, "I won't HIRE another photographer." She's probably not thinking "Uncle Elliot can't bring his camera."

Nor should she--it's not your wedding, it's a party for her and her family and guests. If she wants Uncle Elliot to have a good time at her party, and if taking snapshots is Uncle Elliot's way of having a good time, then the hired photographer is out of place to insist that Uncle Elliot be disappointed. It's simply not the photographer's party--the couple isn't getting married just for him to have something to photograph. This has nothing to do with Issue One.

Nor does it have to do with Issue Three, "losing sales." The contract should stipulate payment sufficient to cover the photographer's requirements (Let's put it this way: When I contract to do some executive portraits, I'm not depending on selling wallets of the execs to the office staff). There should be no sales lost by relatives taking whatever they want.

The professional photographer is selling a guaranteed package, the customer is buying insurance. Let's go with the insurance analogy: I have insurance on my equipment; I also have a bit of money in the bank to make up for small losses myself. The fact that I will make up for a small loss myself does not "lose sales" for the insurance company--I am still willing to pay to be sure I'm protected from the major calamities. That's what the professional is selling the customer in all cases, whether a professional carpenter, plumber, electrician, or photographer: The guarantee that it will be done right.

That's what the contract is really covering up front. That's what the big bucks are for.

--
RDKirk

'I know you're smarter than I am. But I think you're making up some of those words.' Rocky Rooster from 'Chicken Run'
 
Keith D. Brooks said:
If you are in the photography industry, would you mind if I
followed you to work, took your set up shots, and then gave them to
your client for free?? How long do you think you would be in
business then?
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Pretty long if you could make money just by shooting the wedding and did not have to rely on sales after for financial stability. That's the way things are headed.

--
---> Kendall
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home
Spring Shoot - http://www.pbase.com/kgelner/sigmaseason1
 
nunyobiznus said:
I do rely on my sales for income. ....and if someone else is
shooting over my shoulder.....to give away their pictures ...or to
sell them to the people hireing me, I am not going to be their
"welcome" mat! I will assert myself...and they don't have to like
it! Would they like it if I walked into their work and performed
their job for free....which would cut into their paycheck....or
commissions??

I think not!
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If you can do my job so well that your spare-time work matches the best of my professional output, and you can do enough of this free work to make a dent in my assignments, maybe you deserve my job.

IMHO, if the pro can't produce better results than the guests the pro doesn't deserve extra sales. As everyone says, it takes a lot more than a camera to be a wedding pro.

If you find that people are "stealing" your poses (Try to make that copyright case work in court, rofl) go out of your way to let them. Use radio-controlled flashes (always a good idea anyways) and let them provide their own light. It'll probably go a way toward making your shots look better. "I snapped the same exact pic the photographer did any mine looks bad!? He must know what he's doing!"

If you can't find a way to make money in today's camera-filled world you'll only make room for more flexible photographers.
 
As I have stated on many ocassions in forums,I am a Pro Photog I do lots of weddings and commercial work,I have been in the profession for over 40yrs and will probably retire next year.With hand on heart I tell you that I have always encourage all guests with cameras at wedding be they P&S or SLR's to stand by me take shots if they wish.I also tell them that if anyone stands in front of me when I'm working then their equipment will be confiscated and throwm in the trash can.This seems to work for me everybody is happy,as it should be.I get loads of reprints regardless of the number of guests with camera's

I believe the Photographers job is to help create a pleasant atmosphere where the smiles on finished product are genuine and not forced because they felt the Photog was a pain in the butt.
Carl
 
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