Fake photos?

  • Thread starter Thread starter David Martin
  • Start date Start date
Enjoy your breakfast, Luke!

.

.

.

Ready yet?

OK!

First: You keep on making statements without backing them up.
(Yah, the money thing)

Second: Hitler was defeated by mindless American pilots who didn't know their job, flying the B17 (a flawed airplane design) against the Luftwaffe (a terrible killing machine).

They destroyed the V2 and other weapons manufacturing facilities, oil refineries and the Luftwaffe itself, against all odds.
(little brains, all heart)
 
Yeah, I see wht you mean.
I can't believe anyone would be so irresponsible as to fake them -
publishing them in their graphic detail is dodgy enough in the
present climate,
Did it never occur to you that these photo's could have been made by Iraq ppl, as negative propaganda? To my it would be a sitting duck.
although of course they should have been
publicised if true, but possibly not in their gory detail.
Come on.. pictures of torn apart bodies are printed every day, I think those are much worse.

Frederique
 
So President Bush and Donald Romsfedt have got it totally wrong?
They are apologising to the world for something that never happened?
Not sure which planet you normally inhabit, but it sure isn't this
one.
What do you think? How do you think the world would react if Bush says "their staged!".. Nobody would believe it, and it would not show any respect for those ppl if they WEREN'T staged. There's just too much risc. If they ARE staged, it's a piece of clever propaganda from Iraq, because now the US has to eat dust, there's no way they can run away from this.

Frederique
 
Enjoy your breakfast, Luke!

.

.

.

Ready yet?

OK!

First: You keep on making statements without backing them up.
(Yah, the money thing)

Second: Hitler was defeated by mindless American pilots who didn't
know their job, flying the B17 (a flawed airplane design) against
the Luftwaffe (a terrible killing machine).
They destroyed the V2 and other weapons manufacturing facilities,
oil refineries and the Luftwaffe itself, against all odds.
(little brains, all heart)
.....................................................................................

Not one for a big breakfast!!!

The Americans helped(Themselves) during WW2. Some good soldiers and Pilots. But they where sent by the $$$$$ and no other reason. Its a shame they seem to shoot only UK soldiers these days....... Also maybe your History lessons in the US are not 100% correct...Like all the lies told to you during the first Iraqi war.All that Patriot stuff was just lies.. The US has the imagination of a Hippy on Acid when it comes to telling lies.

We here in the UK get told lies as well....But you guys get far more than you deserve.
--
Sorry I shot you...
 
Not one for a big breakfast!!!

The Americans helped(Themselves) during WW2. Some good soldiers and
Pilots. But they where sent by the $$$$$ and no other reason. Its a
shame they seem to shoot only UK soldiers these days....... Also
maybe your History lessons in the US are not 100% correct...Like
all the lies told to you during the first Iraqi war.All that
Patriot stuff was just lies.. The US has the imagination of a
Hippy on Acid when it comes to telling lies.

We here in the UK get told lies as well....But you guys get far
more than you deserve.
--
Sorry I shot you...
There you go again (sounds like Reagan, huh?)... with the money "thing" (and no proof).

At least you feel compassionate, in the end, to say that we don't deserve to be lied to.
(how many virgins will the "martyrs" get?)

In the US, we have all the news sources one can ever want.

I watch Fox, hear ABC, BBC, Radio France Internationale (My French is decent), NPR and sometimes BAI (don't ask:).
We know about the Patriot failures and potential.
 
Laurentiu,

I being an American, would love to believe that we "won" the war in Europe, but, in fact, and as in WWI, we were late to the game and provided the material support and the resources to finish the job. Give credit to the British Commonwealth for conducting the early campaigns that stalled the German Western Front and African Campaign.

I would as well credit especially the Soviet Union for turning the Eastern Front into a disaster for the Germans, without which resources would have assuredly been funneled to the Western Front.

Mostly, I would credit the poor military performance and skills of Hitler himself, without which, all of us might be living in a completely different world.

tom
 
Hatred ? Ignorance ? Tunnel vision ? What are you guys "on" this site for anyway? Want to spread even more hate ? You want the day to come when people from all over the world can't chat in a forum like this about a common interest like photograpy? Keep acting like " wankers " & it will one day happen. Our respective leaders & self interest groups will hasten it without us helping them out. Get back to what you love doing ( photography I presume ) or soon your kids will need to swap a 35mm camera & tripod for a 7.62mm bore & backpack full of spam.

JayB
 
Laurentiu,

I would not argue that America's early material support and later combat resources didn't tip the balance. In fact, that was my point. But, one would still have to argue that without the efforts of the other parties early on, (what if England had been invaded?), America's efforts might have been to late to stem the tide.

I am btw, a very big admirer of Marshall. Were that a man of his intellect was with us today.

tom
I say we won the war (or at least tilted the balance greatly).
Robert Capa was there: http://search.eb.com/normandy/

And not only that,.. but the Marshall plan helped rebuild Europe.
(money thing:)
http://www.usaid.gov/multimedia/video/marshall/links.html
 
I didn't feel that the war in Iraq was ever justified and have heard interesting evidence that suggests that Saddam could have been taken out of power through peaceful, political/diplomatic means.

I also read an interesting article last year that said the Japanese were ready to surrender before the bomb was dropped but the US went ahead because they had to justify the huge resources they had devoted to its development and also wanted to demonstrate their power by using it. And even if you can accept that the first bomb was a means to "stopping the war" there is no justification for the second - the first was more than enough.

What I find interesting in this, is the US attitude to foreign affairs... they seem much more intent on displaying their power than their compassion. A couple of the ridiculous postings here about Islam and Muslim are laughable - just like Christians there are extremists amongst the Islamic community, but there are also liberals. They are not the enemy; and whilst Saddam was a dangerous dictator I don't believe he posed a threat in the West (where are the WMD?) - the whole "war on terror" is a contrivance... we're going to have a lot more to worry about than terrorists in the not too distant future if we don't do anything about the environment, as I believe a recent Pentagon report demonstrates.

I think the US would have done much better to spend the billions $$$ they've spent on war on aid to 3rd world countries. If it showed its compassion the extremist elements would find it much harder to get the support they need to commit their atrocities... Just as poverty in Germany after WWI allowed Hitler to gain the support he needed, poverty in the 3rd world is letting extremists exploit the desperate and needy - and the US are doing all the right things to make themselves enemy #1... and sadly dragging the UK along with them.

As for the pictures this post was originally about - it's now looking like they may well have been staged as a means to bring attention to abuses that have really been taking place... which sadly comes as no surprise to me.

And to those who have suggested that torture is an acceptable means of getting information out of people I'd suggest that you are simply condoning the enemy's use of torture. It astonishes me that people find it so easy to say that something is acceptable from our 'morally superior' perspective (we're on the side of right and doing this for a just cause) yet can't comprehend that the 'enemy' are thinking exactly the same thing. If we are truly going to demonstrate our alleged moral superiority then we must never use such despicable tactics...
 
Tom, The way I see it is that the British were under German siege (6000 V2s were built and many more would've been launched on England, had the Americans not destroyed the launching pads and factories, twice), the Russians were getting killed and were running out of ammo (lost 20 million people, some to friendly fire) and the French capitulated.

I see your point but I kindah like mine better.

I don't insist though and will accept "greatly tilted the balance", but... for money only?
Never!

(well, for gain of some sort, maybe. I work for pay in a capitalist system; I'm not against profit at all... cost:)
 
I didn't feel that the war in Iraq was ever justified and have
heard interesting evidence that suggests that Saddam could have
been taken out of power through peaceful, political/diplomatic
means.
I have read compelling evidence that France, Germany, Russia, China, Libya, Syria and the... UN were enforcing Saddam's rule.
I also read an interesting article last year that said the Japanese
were ready to surrender before the bomb was dropped but the US went
ahead because they had to justify the huge resources they had
devoted to its development and also wanted to demonstrate their
power by using it. And even if you can accept that the first bomb
was a means to "stopping the war" there is no justification for the
second - the first was more than enough.
After Pearl Harbor and Okinawa, Japan was ready to surrender to... Stalin.
(Remember East Germany? Same country as West Germany; North Korea--South Korea)

Did you know that the new President of South Korea is a human rights activist?

You're right about the fact that torture should not be used on POWs or thieves and criminals, but fail to give any credit to the US for the good it did and does, so you're mostly... blind.
 
You assume that the mainstream media doesn't want UK and US
soldiers killed. I think it's much more likely that they do want
the soldiers to die, the US/UK to tuck tail between legs and
withdraw in failure from Iraq, and for Iraq to end up badly in the
end. The mainstream media in the US and UK aren't quite at the
level of Al Jezeera, but share the same goals in this case -- a
permanent catastrophe in Iraq.
You need to put the crack pipe down, man, it's affecting your sense.
This IS very relevant to photography -- the Abu Graib abuses and
investigation were announced by the pentagon publically in January,
but nobody cared much until the pictures were obtained and released
What the Pentagon announced was "there has been some trouble, and we're on it." Not exactly anything to get up in arms about. Although THIS was also announced to military's upper levels of management, and you're right - they didn't care:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20040510/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_dc_37

These soldiers who's vile actions have proven to the world that they can't trust Americans. Most of us are good, honorable people who would never stand for anything like this - if my child saw Iraqis doing this to American citizens he would be signing up TODAY. But, dispite the image we're comfortable with, it's US torturing THEM. These shameful excuses for soldiers should be stripped and handed over to one of the local prisons for some local justice. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
--
Have fun! ;-)
 
I didn't feel that the war in Iraq was ever justified and have
heard interesting evidence that suggests that Saddam could have
been taken out of power through peaceful, political/diplomatic
means.
Probably not by peaceful means, but probably by means short of full war with the US. Either way, Iraq would have been left an economic basket case after a great deal of internecine warfare. No way to guess which would be easier on the average Iraqi or how long either would/will take to reach a state of peace within Iraq.
I also read an interesting article last year that said the Japanese
were ready to surrender before the bomb was dropped but the US went
ahead because they had to justify the huge resources they had
devoted to its development and also wanted to demonstrate their
power by using it.
The problem with those "interesting articles" is that they purport to read the minds of people long dead, and then present that suppositon as though it was fact.

Nobody knows any of the things you mentioned as being fact. There is no documentation of "the Japanese were ready to surrender." There is some scant documentation that some Japanese official might have sent a communique to the Russians that some Japanese officials were seeking a peace accord. But there is no record of the communique itself, there is no record of who that Japanese official was, nor any record of who in the Japanese government would have supported it. There are records, however, that Tojo himself was nowhere near surrendering. So we don't know what was in the minds of the various Japanese officials, except for the one who expressed himself openly--Tojo.

We know a little bit more about what was in the minds of the Americans, having more documentation. There is no hint in that documentation that any American officials thought or "knew" the Japanese were ready to surrender. What we do find (in discussions about the Japanese mindset) are references to the battle for Okinawa and other islands in which it was made graphically clear that to the Japanese no form of surrender was an option.

We also know that the Japanese government was actively preparing the people of Honshu to perform the same actions that the Okinawans performed--to fight to the last woman and child, and to commit suicide. We have ample testimony from women and children from that time.

There is documentation of what the officials expected if the US executed an invasion of Honshu. For instance, one War Department report estimated 1,000,000 US casualties, and that the invasion would take until 1954 before completion--that report is something we know Truman had read.

. They are not the enemy; and whilst Saddam was a
dangerous dictator I don't believe he posed a threat in the West
(where are the WMD?) - the whole "war on terror" is a
contrivance... we're going to have a lot more to worry about than
terrorists in the not too distant future if we don't do anything
about the environment, as I believe a recent Pentagon report
demonstrates.
Surely you don't think the WHOLE war on terror is merely a "contrivance." While I agree that Iraq never had any "stockpiles' of WMD (in fact, the US intelligence agencies always denied having any evidence of WMD stockpiles), 9/11 was no contrivance.

That Pentagon report, by the way, did not make any confirmation of "worst case" environment scenarios, but was a planning "what if" document of the sort the Pentagon does by the hundreds. When you have staffs of people whose job is to do nothing but create plans, you get plans for every possible scenario. They mean nothing in terms of whether that outcome is more or less likely than another.
I think the US would have done much better to spend the billions
$$$ they've spent on war on aid to 3rd world countries.
The US would have done better to follow President Carter's lead in 1977 to consider energy self-reliance "the moral equivalent of war," and get away from needing foreign sources of energy. It would be nice to consider events in the Middle East without having to consider the US dependency on the region. However, it would also be necessary for Europe and Japan to follow suit with energy independence.

Certainly the money now being spent on maintaining the status quo in the Middle East since 1977 would have gone along way toward energy independence.
And to those who have suggested that torture is an acceptable means
of getting information out of people I'd suggest that you are
simply condoning the enemy's use of torture.
If you will note, you don't hear the military suggesting torture. One of the benefits of adhering to the Law of Armed Conflict is that it prevents a soldier from falling to the depths of brutality that war would otherwise drag him to--it gives him a floor at which he can later say, "I did not become an animal--there were societal rules of behavior that I always obeyed."

Also they also provide a floor of confidence on which to build a peace treaty at some future time. If the enemy must acknowledge that we have laways obeyed certain minimum rules of civility even in the heat of war, he has reason to have confidence that we will adhere to the requirements of a peace treaty. But if the barbarity of the war reaches the depths of "give no quarter, take no quarter," then there is no reason for confidence in a peace--peace will become impossible.

--
RDKirk

'I know you're smarter than I am. But I think you're making up some of those words.' Rocky Rooster from 'Chicken Run'
 
Hey - I don't agree with everything you say... though I do agree that any article appearing in the media has to be taken with a pinch of salt... but I appreciate the fact that you back up your arguments and state your case in a sensible and civil manner.

If more people were following this reasoned attitude rather than descending to petty insults (and picked up their litter) then maybe the world would be a better place.
I didn't feel that the war in Iraq was ever justified and have
heard interesting evidence that suggests that Saddam could have
been taken out of power through peaceful, political/diplomatic
means.
Probably not by peaceful means, but probably by means short of full
war with the US. Either way, Iraq would have been left an economic
basket case after a great deal of internecine warfare. No way to
guess which would be easier on the average Iraqi or how long either
would/will take to reach a state of peace within Iraq.
The theory I heard (posited by experts rather than journalists) would have involved peaceful means to impose pressure from other Arab states in the region... I only heard a sketchy version of the theory so can't elucidate...
I also read an interesting article last year that said the Japanese
were ready to surrender before the bomb was dropped but the US went
ahead because they had to justify the huge resources they had
devoted to its development and also wanted to demonstrate their
power by using it.
The problem with those "interesting articles" is that they purport
to read the minds of people long dead, and then present that
suppositon as though it was fact.
Yep - the media don't have to print the truth, and nor do the history books, and they often don't. The article did however reference some documentation that the Japanese had recently released... If you're interested I'll try and find a link.
. They are not the enemy; and whilst Saddam was a
dangerous dictator I don't believe he posed a threat in the West
(where are the WMD?) - the whole "war on terror" is a
contrivance... we're going to have a lot more to worry about than
terrorists in the not too distant future if we don't do anything
about the environment, as I believe a recent Pentagon report
demonstrates.
Surely you don't think the WHOLE war on terror is merely a
"contrivance." While I agree that Iraq never had any "stockpiles'
of WMD (in fact, the US intelligence agencies always denied having
any evidence of WMD stockpiles), 9/11 was no contrivance.
I believe the fear of terror has been blown out of all proportion and as such has been used to justify a war that did not need to happen. 9/11 was no contrivance but nor were the massacres that took place in Rwanda ( http://www.worldvision.org/worldvision/comms.nsf/stable/global_hotspots_rwanda )... The war on terror is apparently for everyone's (i.e. the whole world's) good. Maybe doing something to stop similar events happening in Africa would do them more good and would be more in their interest.
That Pentagon report, by the way, did not make any confirmation of
"worst case" environment scenarios, but was a planning "what if"
document of the sort the Pentagon does by the hundreds. When you
have staffs of people whose job is to do nothing but create plans,
you get plans for every possible scenario. They mean nothing in
terms of whether that outcome is more or less likely than another.
Not the interpretation I'd heard... I'll have to look into it ;)
If you will note, you don't hear the military suggesting torture.
The problem is that they don't seem to have a problem with inflicting it either... I accept that there are likely to be rogue elements within any army capable of this sort of behaviour. However it is up to those in charge to make sure that they are not put in a position where they can get away with it.
One of the benefits of adhering to the Law of Armed Conflict is
that it prevents a soldier from falling to the depths of brutality
that war would otherwise drag him to--it gives him a floor at which
he can later say, "I did not become an animal--there were societal
rules of behavior that I always obeyed."

Also they also provide a floor of confidence on which to build a
peace treaty at some future time. If the enemy must acknowledge
that we have laways obeyed certain minimum rules of civility even
in the heat of war, he has reason to have confidence that we will
adhere to the requirements of a peace treaty. But if the barbarity
of the war reaches the depths of "give no quarter, take no
quarter," then there is no reason for confidence in a peace--peace
will become impossible.
Absolutely agree with you on this. And I have to reiterate that we are no longer at war! Even if those people in jail are the 'enemy', treating them in this manner is doing terrible things to the US and British reputation in the Arab world which is going to make any efforts at reaching stability in the region almost impossible...
 
I didn't feel that the war in Iraq was ever justified and have
heard interesting evidence that suggests that Saddam could have
been taken out of power through peaceful, political/diplomatic
means.
I have read compelling evidence that France, Germany, Russia,
China, Libya, Syria and the... UN were enforcing Saddam's rule.
I have read compelling evidence that the US put both Saddam and the Taliban in power... there's plenty of compelling evidence flying around, what's interesting is what's being done to improve the situation now!
I also read an interesting article last year that said the Japanese
were ready to surrender before the bomb was dropped but the US went
ahead because they had to justify the huge resources they had
devoted to its development and also wanted to demonstrate their
power by using it. And even if you can accept that the first bomb
was a means to "stopping the war" there is no justification for the
second - the first was more than enough.
After Pearl Harbor and Okinawa, Japan was ready to surrender to...
Stalin.
(Remember East Germany? Same country as West Germany; North
Korea--South Korea)
Yep - the US didn't want the Japanese surrendering to the Russians (didn't want the reds taking over the world!) so they bombed them... well that's just great.
Did you know that the new President of South Korea is a human
rights activist?

You're right about the fact that torture should not be used on POWs
or thieves and criminals, but fail to give any credit to the US for
the good it did and does, so you're mostly... blind.
Please, please, please let me know what good it does... Whilst it gives a large amount in foreign aid - it gives very little in terms of GDP. At the same time American companies abuse 3rd world countries for cheap labour, pollute their land because they have less developed pollution legislation, sell them drugs at over-inflated prices... I'm not saying the UK or Europe are perfect - we're not by any means - but things will only get better when people realise what's going on.
 

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