Shooting Macro with 828 (long/big) Part I

StefanoR said:

you say that to have big insects as butterflies within the DOF is
almost impossible even at F 8...

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StefanoR said:

I shot this on a 2.5" inches wide (approx. total wingspan) hunter
and it is almost totally in focus though I shot at F 5.6 (without
any closeup lens).

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StefanoR said:

Does it depends on the relatively small magnification in this case
(the whole bug cover about 1700 pixels) ?

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cem36 said:

-- when you push the button for macro mode on the side of the 828,
what exactly does it do? I can't tell any difference. Do real
macro photographers push this button too? Is it only relevant at
center focal lenghts or focusing distances?

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Lou Gonzalez said:

I use an MCON35 coupled with a Canon 250D on my 717 and get really
great results...

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cybermice said:

Just got a Hoya (1x 2x 4x) close-up kit and played around with it
the other night. I found the settings for relatively large objects
quite a bit different than for relatively small objects, as one
would expect. Thanks for the comments on focal length, F-Stop,
shutter speed and EVF hood. It’s good to have a starting point and
work from there. I’ll post some pics as soon as I have some good
examples.

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Joel said:

I thought I would put down how my macro shooting technique has
evolved since I bought my 828. The process is somewhat different to
the 505 & 505V that I was using before, which made good macro
relatively easy to do. I have been working with the 828 since
January and, in my plodding way, have developed the techniques
described below.

To start with, here are some images from the 505s:

http://www.inventors-emporium.co.uk/photographs/DSC00020BSmall.jpg

The water beading on this plant after it has been raining is just
fantastic.

http://www.inventors-emporium.co.uk/photographs/DSC10026Small.JPG

These wolf spiders are perhaps my favourite subject.

http://www.inventors-emporium.co.uk/photographs/DSC00062BSmall.jpg

A really alien scene. This specimen was tramping through at quite a
lick so it was lucky to get it so nicely.

Technically, the whole thrust of macro is to get the greatest
maginification and also the greatest depth of field (DOF) -
generally mutually exclusive characteristics. When you are using
digital equipment, you want your subject occupying as many pixels
as possible.

Magnification:
The 505/505V have better native macro than the 828 - greater
magnification and slightly better DOF with less distortion. The
higher resolution of the 828 makes up for it but the result is that
the subject occupies about the same number of pixels - so no
improvement there.

As it comes, the 828 gives its best performance with the lens set
to 50mm. Wider and the distortion becomes apparent, longer and
camera exceeds its focus range.

To get back to what the 505s can do natively, a 4x supplementary
close-up lens like the Canon 250D on the 828 will do the job but
the DOF is punishingly small except at F8. To get the full
magnification requires the lens to be set at 200mm but the lens
performance is not so great here in the corners and backing off to
135mm is better, also giving back some DOF, but magnification is
down again.

An interesting solution is to shoot at 5M and use the Smart Zoom to
recover the lost magnification at 135 or get a little more at 200,
which works well as it draws from the centre of the frame where
lens performance is very good. I'm increasingly using this approach
for small subjects.
I believe it has been well established that Smart Zoom is as good
or better than resampling in an image editor and it allows you to
frame normally. A 5M image from the 828 seems to be a bit better
than that from a 5M camera.

The 505s need to be smack up against the subject to get it's images
at full magnification, which often shadows the scene and can be
tricky if your target is a skitty varmint. An 828 with a
supplementary lens has the advantage of being able to be about
20-25cm from the subject but this means that other objects can get
in the way and holding the camera steady is harder.

Light:
You need lots of it. You can get great results with flash but I
prefer the natural look and simplicity of daylight. I often end up
following insects into inaccessible places where a flash cannot be
used. Shooting at F8 is mandatory and ISO64/100 means that to get
speeds of at least 1/100sec needs nice, bright sunlight. I
especially love the abstract backgrounds in macro images and using
flash mutes these - sometimes to black. Auto WB seems to be
absolutely fine in these conditions.

As DOF is everything, F8 is usually where you have to be. Aperture
priority is the logical choice to keep the workload down, using the
exposure compensation to tweak the histogram if necessary but fully
manual is very good too and in some ways easier to adjust.

The 505s seem to get great exposures without any real effort but
the 828 needs more attention. Fortunately it has the live histogram
which makes it easy to get it right. Using centre-weighted exposure
or spot metering is generally better. It's a shame the spot can't
be moved around but AF lock is there for that.

As for all my 828 shots I use "Real" colour with contrast and
saturation at minus. When I post-process, I adjust brightness,
contrast and saturation to get the feel I want. Sharpness is set at
normal.

For "normal" photography I can get sharp images handheld at 1/16s
with the 828 at 50mm but for high mag. macro 1/60s is about the
best I can do. 1/125s is pretty reliable and anything above that is
a bonus.

See Part II in the reply.

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Richard N. Allen said:

For some unexplained reason, I've had
more difficulty taking macro photos with the 828 than I did with
the 717. I use the EVF on both. I early on discovered that 50mm
was the best setting on the 828.

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Member said:

I've read your first two posts on Macro, now I need to see if you posted
any details on how to make that snazzy little tube.

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Joel said:

Steady on, people will start to talk

Joel said:

I've read your first two posts on Macro, now I need to see if you posted
any details on how to make that snazzy little tube.

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I might post with more contructional details if there is some
interest but basically I used a stiff cardboard mailing tube which
I gently shaped to be more square at the camera end and then spray
painted it matt black inside and out. Several coats gave a nice
finish.

I attached two metal posts made from tapped 6BA pillars with large
diameter nylon washers either side to spread the load. A large
nylon washer on the outer end of the post stops the long elastic
slipping off the end.

A second model I made for a friend's DSC-F55 used a broad elastic
loop rivetted to the tube to make it easy to slip on and off. This
does not work for the 828 because of the shape of the main body but
would with the 505/7x7 series.

The ends of the tube are finished with a grooved rubber strip used
to finish metal panels. This protects your eye and your specs, the
camera LCD and stops the edge of the tube being damaged.

The elastic is very quick to attach and remove and does not foul
the lens pivot. If you knock it, no damage results. For critical
focus, it helps to stabilise the camera.

I am short sighted so I made the tube 16cm long because that is the
distance my eye naturally focuses without spectacles making it very
comfortable but I often use it when my eye is far from it just to
shade the LCD.

I am short sighted so I made the tube 16cm long because that is the
distance my eye focuses naturally without spectacles, making it
very comfortable over long periods. I also often use the hood when
my eye is away from the camera just to shade the LCD and anyway,
it's nice to isolate the image from the surroundings as the EVF
does.

Many thanks for your kind comments and all the best with your macro
photography.

Joel.

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Joel said:

Part II

Focus:
The perennial torture for macro photographers is getting the
subject in focus. Most photographers bracket for exposure - we
bracket for focus - endlessly. The DOF is a few mm at best.
Gigantic subjects like butterflies are virtually impossible to
capture with everything in sharp focus. Even an ant is hard to keep
entirely in focus at high mag. so you choose angles that place as
much of it in the plane of focus as possible. Nature, obviously,
does not give a monkey about your problems, so insects will usually
adopt the most inconvenient orientation they can. Only displaying
their rear ends seems to be my lot.

The 828 auto-focus is usually very good but for supplementary lens
macro I have found it sets the focus point fractionally behind
where it should ideally be. Continuous focus mode is better but it
constrains you to having the subject central in the frame, which is
a bit boring. Why it can't be steered around I don't know - Sony
please note.

I am finding that using manual focus is nearly always better,
usually by moving the camera slightly back and forth. I have an
on-again, off again relationship with expanded focus but happily
one can use both techniques simultaneously.

I move the camera towards the subject so that the closest part of
it just comes into focus, the DOF then lies substantially behind
this point and hopefully includes most of the creature. There is no
way to judge if you have it exactly right until you examine your
shots critically on the computer later so I shoot many frames,
varying the framing, focus and exposure as I go.

What I can't understand about the focus system in Sony cameras is
that they follow focus very well in Monitor and Continuous modes,
settling quickly and accurately but a half-press on the shutter
causes the system to hunt around again only to settle on the same
spot - what's going on there?

If your subject has eyes, they had better be sharp or the image is
a waste of time - just like any portrait.

In summary:
Managing the focus, exposure and zoom while holding the camera with
one hand, over a bush, at a moving subject the size of a peanut is
highly amusing to watch but quite challenging to actually do and
get a good pic. Tripods and monopods are pretty much impossible
because of the disturbance they cause, so everything is handheld.

The 828 is a great camera that operates on a knife-edge of
performance - get it right and the results are spectacular but if
you don't cater to all its needs the results slip to being merely
good. The 505s are much easier to use (far fewer controls and a lot
lighter), have fantastic native macro performance but lack the
resolution and a decent LCD. They also have less noise at high ISO
but more noise than the 828 at its 64 setting. Focusing the 505s
with AF can be consistently good whereas MF is very tricky. The
reverse applies to the 828 doing macro, MF is better than AF most
of the time.

The swivel body of the whole range is a huge advantage for macro
work. Your hands stay in position to control the camera while the
lens points at the subject. Flip out LCDs are hopeless for this and
an SLR would not be able to take half of the pictures I have with
the 505/828 simply because your eye is often necessarily far from
the camera.

The 828's EVF is not so hot IMHO. It lacks contrast and sharpness
for critical work so I use a tubular hood I made for the 505s on
the LCD when the ambient light is bright and it helps to stabilise
the camera too. Here is a pic. of this setup.



I am getting to the point where I am getting as good results with
the 828 as I can with the 505V and I think I can push a little
further to make the extra pixels do some useful work.

I am often reminded when shooting just how much better the human
eye/brain is at resolving small detail while apparently preserving
tremendous DOF and a wide angle view, following motion and staying
in focus. No camera comes remotely close to this combination of
features so it pays to actually put the camera aside regularly and
just look.

Here are some examples from the 828 shot recently:



Ants are now a possibility with the new setup.



Lots of fine detail in the Ladybird.



These little hunting spiders are about 5mm long and rarely sit
still for a portrait.

Joel.

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cybermice said:

Just got a Hoya (1x 2x 4x) close-up kit and played around with it
the other night. I found the settings for relatively large objects
quite a bit different than for relatively small objects, as one
would expect. Thanks for the comments on focal length, F-Stop,
shutter speed and EVF hood. It’s good to have a starting point and
work from there. I’ll post some pics as soon as I have some good
examples.
--
Jon
http://cybermice.smugmug.com

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Joel said:

Joel wrote:
The 505s seem to get great exposures without any real effort but
the 828 needs more attention. Fortunately it has the live histogram
which makes it easy to get it right. Using centre-weighted exposure
or spot metering is generally better. It's a shame the spot can't
be moved around but AF lock is there for that.

Click to expand...