Luminous Landscape debunked?

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Ah, how easy it is to find all kinds a ways there could be variables in the other guy's work.... but there CAN NEVER be any possible variables in your proof... like your use of Mr Peterson's artical as definitive proof film is better...... no... never...none... perfect scientific proof, so well documented... every step explained... perfect...

(even though his stated goal wasn't even comparing film to digital quality with the photos, only a comparison of magnification)

Your arguments start looking more and more silly, the more one cross-referrences your many anti-digital posts...

-Kurt
There is indeed an 8x10 comparison of ISO100 film vs S1 and D30 in
the March/April issue of American Photo and the digital wins.
Without upscaling the file.
 
This takes the cake... have you even read his website???? I read that review the first day it went up, and have re-read it multiple times since then, and I've never seen him change anything about the basic goal, the process or the result...

So you think you won???? This demonstrates such a clear desire on your part to stir things up, rather than deal with the reality of the situation, it's sad.... (or is it just trollish?)

I think we should take a vote for official DPreview troll status for you..

Any seconds?

Again I challange you to use your posts in this forum to further digital photography, or reduce the noise level...

Kurt
In the current issue of Photo Life, Mr Reichman himself gives a glowing > review of the D30 and, he does touch upon the controversy over his site.

I am sure in response to the flood of emails that he admits to receiving, > he seems to have qualified his conclusions so that he claims NOT to have > been saying that digital beats film but that the D30 can produce a print > that approaches the quality of a "100ISO transparency scanned with a > good scanner".

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I woudl think that the extreme > position that an inkjet print from a D30 exceeds the quality of a traditional > film print was a result of the religious fervor of several zealots.

All I wanted people to admit was that the comparison was NOT between > digital and film but between digital and film scanner. Since this seems to > be Mr Reichman's current position, I am willing to accept that.
 
I agree.

If we can get larger sensors up to full frame at 6MP or slightly more we will be nearly there to match film.
Geoff

Johnny wrote:
nd now please give me lens that have that resolution
even the 60 lp/mm is problem
that also the reason that I want the largest CCD/CMOS I can get
e.g. a small 3MP cam may have a real resolution of whopping 0.6MP
(20 lp/mm optic + 6mm CCD)

Johnny
 
Don't take my word for anything, nor that of my detractors. Do the
tests and see for yourself. Not theory, not hypotheses but actual
hands-on tests. Then use your own eyes and form your own opinions.
Absolutley. This forum and to a greater extent, the newsgroup rec.photo.digital seem to be frequented by a number of people who will take every opportunity to ramble on about "effective pixels" and "lines per inch" and essentially sit there counting pixels to proclaim that there is no way, never, that a 3 megapixel camera could approach 35mm film in image quality at sizes such as 8*10 and 12*8.

Film images are captured and processed in different ways to digital camera images. I think those who would try to assert the benefits of one technology over the other by drawing inappropriate analogies between two technologies which aren't analogous (for example, talking about the "effective pixels" of a film image misses the rather important point that film capture is not pixel based), are probably missing the point.

To paraphrase a former US president, "It's the prints, stupid!"
 
,the comparison was NOT between digital and film but between digital and film scanner. Since this seems to be Mr Reichman's current position, I am willing to accept that.
I read the review on the day it was posted - he has always said that. He might have added something for clarity, but Mr. R's basic position has not changed. if you read the article with any degree of care, you will see that clearly stated.
 
Having proposed a methodoloy for comparing noise from digital and analog photos
(find at Luminous Landscape), I have received a number of emails from folks
who seem to have some problems with Reichmann's conclusions. Here is a summary
of my responses to emails I have received.

---

Michael Reichmann runs down a list of attributes of merit that one might use to
characterize photographic quality. It is possible that his list is incomplete,
but he apparently doesn't think so; nor do I.

Given enough resolution, enough dynamic range, enough color accuracy, enough
sensitivity, and high enough signal/noise ratio, digital can convincingly
approximate any aspect of chemical photography you care to deem important. This
is similar to discussions comparing digital and analog audio recordings. The
overwhelming majority of recordings are never played under circumstances where
even an expert could tell the difference. Some people like the "warm" sound of
analog tape recordings, so digital has responded by analyzing the
"signature" of tape and approximating it digitally. There is no question that
experts, under ideal conditions, can still tell the difference, but so what. If
you subjected tape recorded, vinyl pressed, tube amplified audio to the same
conditions, the flaws would overwhelm any minor distinctions between digital and
analog recordings. RC coated vs "fiber based" photographic paper sparks a
similarly fruitless debate.

When you work with 35mm film, the original is close to useless. To be
useful, it must be magnified. To be magnified, it must go through another lens.
That lens could be a scanner or an enlarger, but it still significantly degrades
the image. Small format film is generally not very flat. In a camera, this is
not such a problem because you are allowed one opaque surface to mechanically

flatten it. I believe someone (Contax?) makes (made?) a camera that actually does
(did?) this by suction. When magnifying, this is difficult or impossible. Also
color films of all types are a comparatively thick sandwich of layers. The image
dye is not all on the same plane. And so on.

Digital goes through one lens.
Analog must ALWAYS go through at least two lenses.

---

The reason Reichmann makes the comparison, as he does, of scanned 35mm
film and digital is that digital prints from digitally manipulated images
are better than optical/chemical enlargements. This has been old news to
me since seeing an Iris dye-sub in action on wedding photos about 7 years
ago. Optical/chemical prepress is being eaten alive by digital prepress.
Same reason, manifestly superior results. The only remaining question is
how best to capture the digital originals in the first place.

Unless you are claiming that Reichmann has made some technical error in
his comparisons between the D30 and 100ASA film, or that his posted
results do not fairly represent the actual results of his comparison, I
would have to conclude that Reichmann's results are substantially in
agreement with Merklinger's numbers, as well as Reichmann's qualitative
conclusions. They also agree well with my own observations. I haven't yet
seen any coherent argument that the demonstrated results do not mean what
Reichmann thinks they mean and I haven't yet seen any coherent argument
that I am not seeing what I think I'm seeing.

Have I missed something?
 
Kurt

I rise to respectfully second your motion re: troll status for the reprsentative from the state denial.

John (A representative from the great state of the open-minded and a proud citizen of the 21st century.)
So you think you won???? This demonstrates such a clear desire on
your part to stir things up, rather than deal with the reality of
the situation, it's sad.... (or is it just trollish?)

I think we should take a vote for official DPreview troll status
for you..

Any seconds?

Again I challange you to use your posts in this forum to further
digital photography, or reduce the noise level...

Kurt
In the current issue of Photo Life, Mr Reichman himself gives a glowing > review of the D30 and, he does touch upon the controversy over his site.

I am sure in response to the flood of emails that he admits to receiving, > he seems to have qualified his conclusions so that he claims NOT to have > been saying that digital beats film but that the D30 can produce a print > that approaches the quality of a "100ISO transparency scanned with a > good scanner".
 
Then it would one me wonder why magazines would bother with medium
format. Even with Medium format, images are scanned to computer,
edited and posted to magazine. You should try PhotoCD Pro which is
twice that of 3000x2000...
You may have misunderstood - sure I could make a higher resolution scan of the negative, but that would NOT get me more detail - only depicting the existing grains with more accuracy. Magazine photographers often use large format for flexibility - the shot might be needed for a billboard, etc. Also, I have a feeling that much of the larger format usage is due to snobbery - if you´re going to charge people hundreds of dollars an hour for photography, you better have a giant camera!
Anyhow, per head to head Pro SLR battle in Popular Photography,

"For starters, every film-based SLR on the market still has the
upper hand in the image quality department. As we've reported in
the past and have deduced from our own tests, a tripod-mounted,
high-end SLR with superb lens and ISO 100 color print film can
capture the equivalent of a 40 megapixel sensor. That's an order
of magnitute more than a 3.3 or even 4 MP sensor, so images shot
under the best curcumstances on 35mm can be cropped and enlarged
without the image degradation you'd quickly see from any of the
cameras mentioned above. But the question is, do you need all that
detail?"

Then they go into the benefits of digital like convenience, how
quick to press, no processing time, total control, don't pay for
bad shots, how quiet it is (no wind) etc... Yada yada yada...
Same arguments you can make with a 1.5 megapixel camera.
However, in American Photo (a magazine I personally trust more) they come to the opposite conclusion, with reasonably useful examples. In one of the comparisons they made, perhaps it was in Popular Photography, their comparison shots were between film and a consumer digicam - American Photo at least used a D30.
 
It is good to see that you have finally joined this conversation since you are going to be the only person who can answer some important questions with some authority.

You mention in the Photo Techniques (Not Photo Life as I said in error) article that you were surprised by the degree of controversy that your site provoked. Perhaps if I asked some questions, it may go some way to clearing up extreme opinions on both sides.

First, I should state my position. You seem to have approached the comparison of the two camera systems by attempting to "level the playing field" and have made many decisions based on a desire to make things equal. For example, you chose ISO100 film because (I imagine) that the D30 has a minimum ISO equivalence of 100 and that seemed to be equal. My feeling is that this approach does not lead to a valid comparison. I would prefer to see a comparison of "bests" and by this I mean that we should be comparing the "best" that digital can produce with the "best" that traditional film processing can produce. No athlete wants to feel that he won a race because the best of the competition wasn't entered...he may win...but it against second stringers and the victory is hollow. Since your final comparison will be done with prints, you should be comparing the best digital print with an actual photo print.
This leads to several questions.

It is a generally accepted principle in photography that a smaller frame cannot be enlarged to the same size and quality as a larger frame. I am sure that you are quite familiar with this since you most likely still have Medium (or larger) format cameras for landscape work. You would not expect to be able to enlarge a 35mm or APS frame to the same level of detail as Medium format. The CMOS of the D30 is about the same size as APS "C" format.

Why should photographers believe that the D30 images will maintain the same level of quality as a 35mm image when both are enlarged to the same size? Has that generally accepted principle been negated because we are dealing with digital?

You chose to use Provia 100. I understand the reasoning for the ISO selection (to maintain equity with the D30) but I question whether that is actually the best way to do it. It would be possible to argue that you should have taken shots at 200, 400, 1600 ISO and compared the D30 shots with film there as well. There is now a Provia 100F which has a much finer grain than Provia 100 but still, a film photographer could just as easily have picked Velvia (ISO 50) and achieved an image with even finer grain. But the greater question is:

If your final comparison was going to be a print, why would you choose a slide film instead of print film?

Starting with print film would allow you to skip the scanning step altogether in order to get something on paper. I feel that the scanning step is the real error in the process. There is a continual reduction in detail with every generational step that is taken. Reality has 100% detail. A film image has less detail than reality (not a big surprise) and a scan (really a digital picture) of that film image has less detail than the photograph and an inkjet print of that scanned image has even less detail. By contrast, the D30 image has less detail than reality (also, no surprise) but that is where the number of processing steps and the loss of detail ends until it is printed. Also, using a dye sublimation printer instead of inkjet would yield the best possible print from the D30

On the other hand, starting with print film would require only optical enlargement which will end up being the final print.

This would allow you to directly compare the best of what film can do with the best that digital can do.

Now, a word about the enhancements done to the digital image before the comparison is done, I certainly have problems with how this was done especially if the goal was to compare digital to film.

I have mentioned that the film image is put through several transitions which reduce detail (thereby degrading the final output) on the other hand the digital image is put through transitions that enhance what comes out of the camera and, in the case of Genuine Fractals, ADDS false detail which never existed in reality. So the digital image has the illusion of increased detail while the film image is subjected to decreasing detail at every step.

I think that the controversy over your conclusions are more to do with the claim that digital "beat" film made by people who were perhaps, over enthusiastic.

I accept your conclusions as you have stated them. The D30 produces excellent images which can be compared quite favorably with scanned film images.

Perhaps we can put this issue to rest and ALL of us can get back to doing what we really love...taking pictures!
Well, this has been quite a discussion. I've been traveling for the
past week and was surprised when I returned to discover that this
old debate had resurfaced again.

Let me start by saying that I have not retreated from any position,
because there is nothing to retreat from. Regretably some folks
have misinterpreted or misrepresented my articles and have put
forward as mine positions which I never took and staements that I
never made. Some thoughtful and kind readers have come to my
defense, and tried to set the record straight. I'm grateful for
that.

But, I see no point in trying to defend a position which I never
took in the first place. Rather than rehash things all I can
suggest is that folks read my reviews and comments, and most
importantly that they do their own tests to determine whether they
agree with my findings.

Don't take my word for anything, nor that of my detractors. Do the
tests and see for yourself. Not theory, not hypotheses but actual
hands-on tests. Then use your own eyes and form your own opinions.

With this in mind I've written a short commentary on this issue of
drawing ones own conclusions. It can be found at
http://luminous-landscape.com/emperor.htm

Michael
 
It is very obvious from your post that it's not so. You suffer exactly from what several posters have pointed out, you don't trust what you see. If therory can not explain it , then reality is not valid. You would probably take a beautiful pictures and can't accept the fact that it is beautiful because it does not corresponds to the rules of composition or exposure. It may not follow the rule of thirds, no evident dynamic tension, no balance, not contrast, etc. And so, there must be something wrong with what you see and hence what you are experiencing is not real. It is obvious that you have not had a digital experience lately. I used to be as arrogant as you and even more condescending with 35mm as compared to MF or LF. But after my initial dissapointments in digital when it was in its infancy, I got into it and have replaced my arrogance with knowledge. It is from my own experience that enlightment can not come from someone else but only as selfexperience. It is a waste of time to argue. If you feel, that digital is inferior, just don't use it. Michael's conclusions are not intended to convince anyone but to express his experience and opinion. So if you want to use 35mm and stay away from digital, then do so. No one will try to stop you. Meanwhile I will use my D30 instead of 35mm and continue to use MF and LF for everything else.
 
First, I should state my position. You seem to have approached the
comparison of the two camera systems by attempting to "level the
playing field" and have made many decisions based on a desire to
make things equal.
How dense can you be.... people have been trying to explain to you, and the article clearly explains, that he was NOT trying to create the end-all, decide all, level test between digital and film... I'll go through this one last time....

He was comparing the output from the D-30, to the output from his previously established/proven working method of scanned film that he had been using from the last two years.

This is what blows me away about your posts and arguments... you directly state below "I feel that the scanning step is the real error in the process"

This is just an astounding statement, and shows a total lack of understanding (did you even read the site?) of the luminous-landscape site...HE HAS BEEN CREATING MOST, if not all of his prints for 2 years using the process that you "feel is the real error". Again, in my first post I asked the question, "is your real problem with an established professional who works with and creates prints from the digitial domain???" You seem to be unable to accept the fact (who cares about numbers or sizes or ISO's) that a professional could work in that medium, and print anything worth looking at on a wall

This is EXACTLY the kind of comparison SOME of us love to see... An accomplished, successfull person, with an established work flow (doesn't even have to be a photographer) who finds a new product or process, and can directly compare it to the result of their previous established, known, product or process.

Result = happy with prints of images desired to be captured.... virtually equivelant quality level to before, but a definate upgrade in the workflow and flexibility.

NOT the result - scientifically proven that all people should now see and accept D-30 is better than film

My god sir, read the article, read his follow up post.... then after you really understand what is being said, see if any of your questions below make sense to ask him...

You go on and on below about possible theory and proofs and formats and sizes and ISO's....

People have asked you over and over again, to get out your D-30, or D-1, or S-1 or whataver (you do have a high-end digital don't you?) and do your own comparison using exactly the parameters you have specified below... we'd all be interested in seeing the results....

Some don't care about arguing over bits and ISO's and stuff.... it's the print hanging on the wall that matters...

And yes, I'm going to go hang my 8x10 of the shoreline of Ireland (near the Blaskett islands - wow, they stayed out there till 1953 as a small

And you know what....? not a day will go by where I wish I had taken it with film....

K

For example, you chose ISO100 film because (I
imagine) that the D30 has a minimum ISO equivalence of 100 and that
seemed to be equal. My feeling is that this approach does not lead
to a valid comparison. I would prefer to see a comparison of
"bests" and by this I mean that we should be comparing the "best"
that digital can produce with the "best" that traditional film
processing can produce. No athlete wants to feel that he won a race
because the best of the competition wasn't entered...he may
win...but it against second stringers and the victory is hollow.
Since your final comparison will be done with prints, you should be
comparing the best digital print with an actual photo print.
This leads to several questions.
It is a generally accepted principle in photography that a smaller
frame cannot be enlarged to the same size and quality as a larger
frame. I am sure that you are quite familiar with this since you
most likely still have Medium (or larger) format cameras for
landscape work. You would not expect to be able to enlarge a 35mm
or APS frame to the same level of detail as Medium format. The CMOS
of the D30 is about the same size as APS "C" format.
Why should photographers believe that the D30 images will maintain
the same level of quality as a 35mm image when both are enlarged to
the same size? Has that generally accepted principle been negated
because we are dealing with digital?
You chose to use Provia 100. I understand the reasoning for the ISO
selection (to maintain equity with the D30) but I question whether
that is actually the best way to do it. It would be possible to
argue that you should have taken shots at 200, 400, 1600 ISO and
compared the D30 shots with film there as well. There is now a
Provia 100F which has a much finer grain than Provia 100 but still,
a film photographer could just as easily have picked Velvia (ISO
50) and achieved an image with even finer grain. But the greater
question is:
If your final comparison was going to be a print, why would you
choose a slide film instead of print film?
Starting with print film would allow you to skip the scanning step
altogether in order to get something on paper. I feel that the
scanning step is the real error in the process. There is a
continual reduction in detail with every generational step that is
taken. Reality has 100% detail. A film image has less detail than
reality (not a big surprise) and a scan (really a digital picture)
of that film image has less detail than the photograph and an
inkjet print of that scanned image has even less detail. By
contrast, the D30 image has less detail than reality (also, no
surprise) but that is where the number of processing steps and the
loss of detail ends until it is printed. Also, using a dye
sublimation printer instead of inkjet would yield the best possible
print from the D30
On the other hand, starting with print film would require only
optical enlargement which will end up being the final print.
This would allow you to directly compare the best of what film can
do with the best that digital can do.
Now, a word about the enhancements done to the digital image before
the comparison is done, I certainly have problems with how this
was done especially if the goal was to compare digital to film.
I have mentioned that the film image is put through several
transitions which reduce detail (thereby degrading the final
output) on the other hand the digital image is put through
transitions that enhance what comes out of the camera and, in the
case of Genuine Fractals, ADDS false detail which never existed in
reality. So the digital image has the illusion of increased detail
while the film image is subjected to decreasing detail at every
step.
I think that the controversy over your conclusions are more to do
with the claim that digital "beat" film made by people who were
perhaps, over enthusiastic.
I accept your conclusions as you have stated them. The D30 produces
excellent images which can be compared quite favorably with scanned
film images.
Perhaps we can put this issue to rest and ALL of us can get back to
doing what we really love...taking pictures!
Well, this has been quite a discussion. I've been traveling for the
past week and was surprised when I returned to discover that this
old debate had resurfaced again.

Let me start by saying that I have not retreated from any position,
because there is nothing to retreat from. Regretably some folks
have misinterpreted or misrepresented my articles and have put
forward as mine positions which I never took and staements that I
never made. Some thoughtful and kind readers have come to my
defense, and tried to set the record straight. I'm grateful for
that.

But, I see no point in trying to defend a position which I never
took in the first place. Rather than rehash things all I can
suggest is that folks read my reviews and comments, and most
importantly that they do their own tests to determine whether they
agree with my findings.

Don't take my word for anything, nor that of my detractors. Do the
tests and see for yourself. Not theory, not hypotheses but actual
hands-on tests. Then use your own eyes and form your own opinions.

With this in mind I've written a short commentary on this issue of
drawing ones own conclusions. It can be found at
http://luminous-landscape.com/emperor.htm

Michael
 
Robert,

Since I too would like to put this whole topic to rest my response will be brief.

The test was done to see how inkjet prints from the the D30 compare to inkjet prints from scanned Provia 100F on an Imacon Photo scanner.

Why Provia 100F?

Because that's the film that I usually shoot. I find that while Velvia has finer grain 100F has higher resolution.

Why transparency instead of negative?

Because that's what I always shoot. Negatives don't scan as well as transparencies and I also prefer working with transparencies.

Why on an Imacon scanner?

Because that's the scanner I own and use. I find that it produces scans the equal of drum scans much of the time.

Why scanned vs. enlarged?

Because I closed my darkroom several years ago when I discovered that I could make much better prints on the desktop than I could in the traditional darkroom.

Let me repeat again what I wrote in the online article. I was not out to make a broad-based ultimate finding about digital vs. film. I simply was curious to see if I could get better prints from the D30 than I could from scanning film -- using MY equipment and MY usual techniques. The answer turned out to be yes. That's what I reported.

Since then some people have distorted what I orginally wrote into some sort of cosmic compariosn. It never was.

Let's let it rest.

Michael
http://www.luminous-landscape.com
 
examples. In one of the comparisons they made, perhaps it was in
Popular Photography, their comparison shots were between film and a
consumer digicam - American Photo at least used a D30.
March "Popular Photography" tested two Nikon Pro SLR's side by side. One 35mm film, one Digital D1. Showed comparisons pics side by side, 35mm film on print was clearly sharper.

March "Photo Graphic" mag also did a comparison of D1 vs Nikon 35mm. 35mm won in resolution sharpness comparing two photos side by side. D1 was even closer due to the magnification of the 50mm lens to 70mm i think. Side by side, the 35mm was still sharper.
 

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