Fake photos?

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David Martin

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If this is indeed a fake, it is the most irresponsible yet.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm

Please can we keep our discussion of this to photography, and the implications of any trickery to us as photographers, rather than to politics, as that is not what these forums are about.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
I read that article, its also in the sunday papers, some quite interesting points i guess.

If it is fake, it looks more likely to be 'fake' from the point of view of being staged photos rather than any post taking manipulation in something like photoshop.
Whatever the case, the whole incedent is rather unfortunate

regards

David
If this is indeed a fake, it is the most irresponsible yet.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm
Please can we keep our discussion of this to photography, and the
implications of any trickery to us as photographers, rather than to
politics, as that is not what these forums are about.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
Yeah, I see wht you mean.

I can't believe anyone would be so irresponsible as to fake them - publishing them in their graphic detail is dodgy enough in the present climate, although of course they should have been publicised if true, but possibly not in their gory detail.

If they are fake the loss of life which will probably ensue from their publication should lead to substatial terms of imprisonment for all those invoilved, including those who authorised their release.
The Daily Mirror bears a heavy burden.
regards

David
If this is indeed a fake, it is the most irresponsible yet.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm
Please can we keep our discussion of this to photography, and the
implications of any trickery to us as photographers, rather than to
politics, as that is not what these forums are about.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
If they are fake, i can only assume they are for propaganda purposes, i guess we know the effect photo's of this type will have in the middle east and the possible consequences.

david
regards

David
If this is indeed a fake, it is the most irresponsible yet.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm
Please can we keep our discussion of this to photography, and the
implications of any trickery to us as photographers, rather than to
politics, as that is not what these forums are about.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
"Whatever sells newspapers"

In the UK that just about sums up the state of the media.
If this is indeed a fake, it is the most irresponsible yet.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm
Please can we keep our discussion of this to photography, and the
implications of any trickery to us as photographers, rather than to
politics, as that is not what these forums are about.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
--
Phil Askey
Editor / Owner, dpreview.com
 
I was wondering whether a photographic expert would be able to shed some light on these myself... Specifically there's one shot which shows the victim being butted in the groin with a rifle. It looks like it's been taken with flash - would this definitely 'freeze' the action so effectively? It seems incredibly sharp to me - I would expect at least a hint of motion blur on the soldier's arm - or is it likely that there is in fact no motion and the whole thing has been staged?

The other thing that brings a question to my mind is that they're in black and white (haven't found a colour version online - even the versions on the Mirror's website are b&w) - I find it unlikely that the average squaddie would be shooting in 'arty' b&w, though I could of course be wrong.

To me these pictures seem much less convincing than the US ones (of which there clearly is no doubt) - though that doesn't mean I don't believe UK troups are capable of this kind of behaviour.

Cheers

BlindFish
If this is indeed a fake, it is the most irresponsible yet.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm
Please can we keep our discussion of this to photography, and the
implications of any trickery to us as photographers, rather than to
politics, as that is not what these forums are about.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
I was wondering whether a photographic expert would be able to shed
some light on these myself... Specifically there's one shot which
shows the victim being butted in the groin with a rifle. It looks
like it's been taken with flash - would this definitely 'freeze'
the action so effectively? It seems incredibly sharp to me - I
would expect at least a hint of motion blur on the soldier's arm -
or is it likely that there is in fact no motion and the whole thing
has been staged?
It definitely would, if it's dark enough (as it seems to be in the picture). Flash duration is about 1/20,000 of a second -- fast enough to freeze a bullet. To my eye, the pictures look unmanipulated.
The other thing that brings a question to my mind is that they're
in black and white (haven't found a colour version online - even
the versions on the Mirror's website are b&w) - I find it unlikely
that the average squaddie would be shooting in 'arty' b&w, though I
could of course be wrong.

To me these pictures seem much less convincing than the US ones (of
which there clearly is no doubt) - though that doesn't mean I don't
believe UK troups are capable of this kind of behaviour.
I agree -- while the pictures don't look manipulated (i.e. photoshopped) to me, there's no way to tell whether they're staged or not. I'm no expert on uniforms, rifles, or trucks, so I can't comment on that. The prisoner does look a bit cleaner than I'd expect, but that's hardly conclusive.

Personally, I'm reserving judgment on these for now.

(Why aren't I reserving judgment on the American ones? Simply because no-one's denied their authenticity.)

Petteri
--




Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Pontification: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/ ]
 
If this is indeed a fake, it is the most irresponsible yet.
There's fake, as in nothing like this ever happened, and it was created in Photoshop. And then there's staged, as in this happened, but wth actors in a studio. I really wouldn't be surprised if these fell into the second category. The man being killed looks, well, I'm sure if he were really captured and being held and transported in the back of a military vehicle, he would have more bruises, more blood, and so on. He looks in awefully good condition for the text that accompanies the photos. If you read along, he was missing some teeth, his jaw was dislodged, and so on. Keep in mind this isn't a foregone conclusion - this is my opinion as one person.
What I find amazingly sad is just how believable these photos are to any educated person who follows the news. We really shouldn't need to have this conversation in the first place, but in light of everything else that's happened ( the photos of Americans torturing Iraqi prisoners ) even photos that seem contrived or staged bear serious investigation.
--
Have fun!
 
If this is indeed a fake, it is the most irresponsible yet.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm
Please can we keep our discussion of this to photography, and the
implications of any trickery to us as photographers, rather than to
politics, as that is not what these forums are about.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
They are fakes, and very poor fakes at that.

The Daily Telegraph today debunks these pictures fairly conclusively: wrong (obsolete) model of rifle, wrong hat and uniform on the 'soldier', no blood, sweat or dirt on victim etc. etc. - 18 points in all.

The Daily Mirror journos and editorial staff must be the biggest bunch of suckers imaginable. Either that, or they care nothing about the veracity of these pictures or the implications of publishing them.
 
If this is indeed a fake, it is the most irresponsible yet.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm
Please can we keep our discussion of this to photography, and the
implications of any trickery to us as photographers, rather than to
politics, as that is not what these forums are about.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
I was looking at the published pictures and thought that I would be hard pressed to get such high quality images, the "frozen" urine stream, the flat lighting with little or no shadows etc, etc. It looks to me as if they were staged in a studio, not taken by a "squaddie with a digi-cam".
in the back of a lorry.

I don't know what some of our more expert photographers make of it technically (I won't comment about the "incident" until there are some hard facts, not just "journalese")

Brian
 
I was looking at the published pictures and thought that I would be
hard pressed to get such high quality images, the "frozen" urine
stream, the flat lighting with little or no shadows etc, etc. It
looks to me as if they were staged in a studio, not taken by a
"squaddie with a digi-cam".
in the back of a lorry.
Actually, the frozen stream of urine would be fairly easy to catch, even with a $6 disposable. It's pretty dark inside a truck like that, so the flash will freeze anything, completely. Focus would be fairly unimportant ( do disposables even have any focus mechanism? ) because of the small lens aperture, and all the more so if this was a digicam. The flash would also render the lighting flat.

The technical quality of the pictures isn't what betrays them as likely fakes. I've seen lots of poorly focused images from this type of situation, and I would expect a lot of them from this truck, if this were real, however I would also expect them to pick the best, clearest photos to show us. What gives these away are that the man -> looks like
I don't know what some of our more expert photographers make of it
technically (I won't comment about the "incident" until there are
some hard facts, not just "journalese")
The sad part is that recent events force us to even consider these photos as being real in the first place!
--
Have fun!
 
Todays digicams, even when set to 'program mode' and 'auto-everything' can deliver good, sharp, evenly lit pictures in many situations.

Don't get me wrong though - these pictures are clearly staged IMO.

For me, it's not the technical qualities of the photo that raises doubts, it's the actual content.

In the photo of the supposed prisoner being struck in the groin with a rifle butt, the victim looks like a model. He's very clean and appears to have no dirt, bruises or abrasions. He's lying with his legs apart - not a defensive posture that you would instinctively adopt if you were being assaulted.

Also, look at the soldier's soft, clean hands. If he's an operational soldier in the field, then I'm Mother Teresa!
 
Todays digicams, even when set to 'program mode' and 'auto-everything' can deliver good, sharp, evenly lit pictures in many situations.

Don't get me wrong though - these pictures are clearly staged IMO.

For me, it's not the technical qualities of the photo that raises doubts, it's the actual content.

In the photo of the supposed prisoner being struck in the groin with a rifle butt, the victim looks like a model. He's very clean and appears to have no dirt, bruises or abrasions. He's lying with his legs apart - not a defensive posture that you would instinctively adopt if you were being assaulted.

Also, look at the soldier's soft, clean hands. If he's an operational soldier in the field, then I'm Mother Teresa!
 
remember the hitler diaries that proved to be fake? i think it was the times newspaper that published parts of those. guess noone is immune to being duped and, as yet, these pictures have not been proven to be faked - its certainly causing quite a stir though

david
If this is indeed a fake, it is the most irresponsible yet.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm
Please can we keep our discussion of this to photography, and the
implications of any trickery to us as photographers, rather than to
politics, as that is not what these forums are about.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
They are fakes, and very poor fakes at that.

The Daily Telegraph today debunks these pictures fairly
conclusively: wrong (obsolete) model of rifle, wrong hat and
uniform on the 'soldier', no blood, sweat or dirt on victim etc.
etc. - 18 points in all.

The Daily Mirror journos and editorial staff must be the biggest
bunch of suckers imaginable. Either that, or they care nothing
about the veracity of these pictures or the implications of
publishing them.
 
I was looking at the published pictures and thought that I would be
hard pressed to get such high quality images, the "frozen" urine
stream, the flat lighting with little or no shadows etc, etc. It
looks to me as if they were staged in a studio, not taken by a
"squaddie with a digi-cam".
in the back of a lorry.
Actually, the frozen stream of urine would be fairly easy to catch,
even with a $6 disposable. It's pretty dark inside a truck like
that, so the flash will freeze anything, completely. Focus would
be fairly unimportant ( do disposables even have any focus
mechanism? ) because of the small lens aperture, and all the more
so if this was a digicam. The flash would also render the lighting
flat.

The technical quality of the pictures isn't what betrays them as
likely fakes. I've seen lots of poorly focused images from this
type of situation, and I would expect a lot of them from this
truck, if this were real, however I would also expect them to pick
the best, clearest photos to show us. What gives these away are
that the man -> looks like
beat up. There's very little blood, bruising, and so on. And then
when you consider this isn't the type of gun, truck, uniform, and
so on, these do seem rather questionable.
I don't know what some of our more expert photographers make of it
technically (I won't comment about the "incident" until there are
some hard facts, not just "journalese")
The sad part is that recent events force us to even consider these
photos as being real in the first place!
--
Have fun!
this was even more worrying to my, a single on camera flash should have cast many shadows from the various bodies / bits of kit?
 
...would have used a point 'n' shoot camera to get the right effect, rather than studio strobes and soft boxes ?

On-camera flash doesn't always result in harsh shadows. Depends on lots of other factors.
 
maybe its all a part of a big plan......

Some fake pics.. so the public dont know what to believe. Then should some "Real Pics" come to light. It might be easier to tell them they where staged....

Just a thought!!
Luke
 

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