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Why packages?

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Cathy

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If we charge a creation fee, then why do we have to offer packages?

I'm trying to simplify pricing. I find that it's a pain in the a$% to try and make sure that my packages make sense compared to alacarte pricing. Also when offering online ordering, it's difficult to make up packages (I use a breezebrowser template).

I'm sure that there must be a reason that photogs have done it this way for so long, but I can't figure out why. Wouldn't it be easier and just as profitable to charge all orders alacarte prices?
 
Creating packages gives the customer more bang for their buck.

If I sell 1-8x10 for $10.00 but offer a package with 1-8x10,2-5x7's and 8 wallets for $24.95, I am hoping to get the customer to spend more money.
Cathy said:
If we charge a creation fee, then why do we have to offer packages?
I'm trying to simplify pricing. I find that it's a pain in the a$%
to try and make sure that my packages make sense compared to
alacarte pricing. Also when offering online ordering, it's
difficult to make up packages (I use a breezebrowser template).
I'm sure that there must be a reason that photogs have done it this
way for so long, but I can't figure out why. Wouldn't it be easier
and just as profitable to charge all orders alacarte prices?
Click to expand...
--
http://www.mikegoebel.com
http://www.belmontstudio.photoreflect.com
 
well,

I go by packages for studio and events, but I go a la carte for reprints: internet sales can be considered reprints all considered, so your remark do make sense.

in my line of work I have to use packages because it will be almost impossible to sell a wedding or a portfolio session a la carte. It depends on the kind of photography we do, and the kind of clients as well.
Packages do semplify things, considering the assignment more like a coverage.
 
I hate them too.

Customers seem to love them though. If I dont offer a package they might buy two or three prints, offer a package and you can sell eight. Some people will change their order to fit into a package. Some customers will only book a session because they have a voucher to get a special package deal. Sometimes it seems they dont care how many photos they buy as long as it fits into a package. The good part is that a 10% discount is enough to make it worthwhile for them to buy extra, and one extra print sale makes that 10% worthwhile for us.

By the way I have a very low nominal sitting fee. The product is the physical photo in the heart and mind of most customers. They dont care about art, skill, talent, your time. they like a photo, they buy it.

Another thing that works is to include value towards prints in your creation fee, but you will really need to make it worth their while to buy extra.

a
Cathy said:
If we charge a creation fee, then why do we have to offer packages?
I'm trying to simplify pricing. I find that it's a pain in the a$%
to try and make sure that my packages make sense compared to
alacarte pricing. Also when offering online ordering, it's
difficult to make up packages (I use a breezebrowser template).
I'm sure that there must be a reason that photogs have done it this
way for so long, but I can't figure out why. Wouldn't it be easier
and just as profitable to charge all orders alacarte prices?
Click to expand...
 
Another reason to offer packages is that you have a set profit margin, so even if the customers don't order extra re-prints, your profit is set per package chosen, and if they do order extra re-prints more profits for you.
 
You don't have to offer packages, but you'll make more money (i.e. sell more) if you do. If your online system doesn't let you easily create packages, perhaps you're using the wrong online service?

To answer your last question of "Wouldn't it be easier and just as profitable to charge all orders a la carte prices".. the answer is yes it would be easier, but NO it is not as profitable.

People like to feel like they're getting a good deal. If you charge $40 for an 8x10 but offer three 8x10's for $100, people will think it's a great deal and you'll have sold $100 instead of just $40 (or $80 if they decide to buy 2 a la carte). Wouldn't you rather sell $100 worth of prints instead of $40 or $80?
Member said:
Cathy wrote:
If we charge a creation fee, then why do we have to offer packages?
I'm trying to simplify pricing. I find that it's a pain in the a$%
to try and make sure that my packages make sense compared to
alacarte pricing. Also when offering online ordering, it's
difficult to make up packages (I use a breezebrowser template).
I'm sure that there must be a reason that photogs have done it this
way for so long, but I can't figure out why. Wouldn't it be easier
and just as profitable to charge all orders alacarte prices?
Click to expand...
 
I need to redo my pricing. My packages are bad. I just took an order and the girl was smarter than me. By ordering the cheapest package and ordering alacarte extras, she was able to get the price lower than a comparable package. Excuse me while I go beat my head on a wall...
Zippy DooDah said:
To answer your last question of "Wouldn't it be easier and just as
profitable to charge all orders a la carte prices".. the answer is
yes it would be easier, but NO it is not as profitable.

People like to feel like they're getting a good deal. If you
charge $40 for an 8x10 but offer three 8x10's for $100, people will
think it's a great deal and you'll have sold $100 instead of just
$40 (or $80 if they decide to buy 2 a la carte). Wouldn't you
rather sell $100 worth of prints instead of $40 or $80?
Zippy DooDah said:
Cathy wrote:
If we charge a creation fee, then why do we have to offer packages?
I'm trying to simplify pricing. I find that it's a pain in the a$%
to try and make sure that my packages make sense compared to
alacarte pricing. Also when offering online ordering, it's
difficult to make up packages (I use a breezebrowser template).
I'm sure that there must be a reason that photogs have done it this
way for so long, but I can't figure out why. Wouldn't it be easier
and just as profitable to charge all orders alacarte prices?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Cathy said:
Zippy DooDah said:
To answer your last question of "Wouldn't it be easier and just as
profitable to charge all orders a la carte prices".. the answer is
yes it would be easier, but NO it is not as profitable.

People like to feel like they're getting a good deal. If you
charge $40 for an 8x10 but offer three 8x10's for $100, people will
think it's a great deal and you'll have sold $100 instead of just
$40 (or $80 if they decide to buy 2 a la carte). Wouldn't you
rather sell $100 worth of prints instead of $40 or $80?
Member said:
Cathy wrote:
If we charge a creation fee, then why do we have to offer packages?
I'm trying to simplify pricing. I find that it's a pain in the a$%
to try and make sure that my packages make sense compared to
alacarte pricing. Also when offering online ordering, it's
difficult to make up packages (I use a breezebrowser template).
I'm sure that there must be a reason that photogs have done it this
way for so long, but I can't figure out why. Wouldn't it be easier
and just as profitable to charge all orders alacarte prices?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
We are selling our pictures the same way they did 50 years ago, Before scanners. What happens when our customers start purchasing our minimum packages and scan them for additional prints.
MarkLe said:
Cathy said:
Zippy DooDah said:
To answer your last question of "Wouldn't it be easier and just as
profitable to charge all orders a la carte prices".. the answer is
yes it would be easier, but NO it is not as profitable.

People like to feel like they're getting a good deal. If you
charge $40 for an 8x10 but offer three 8x10's for $100, people will
think it's a great deal and you'll have sold $100 instead of just
$40 (or $80 if they decide to buy 2 a la carte). Wouldn't you
rather sell $100 worth of prints instead of $40 or $80?
MarkLe said:
Cathy wrote:
If we charge a creation fee, then why do we have to offer packages?
I'm trying to simplify pricing. I find that it's a pain in the a$%
to try and make sure that my packages make sense compared to
alacarte pricing. Also when offering online ordering, it's
difficult to make up packages (I use a breezebrowser template).
I'm sure that there must be a reason that photogs have done it this
way for so long, but I can't figure out why. Wouldn't it be easier
and just as profitable to charge all orders alacarte prices?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
A la carte is fine if you don't care about profits. Selling packages yields higher sales.

Texturize your prints to keep the customer from getting a good scan.
Mikecon said:
Mikecon wrote:
We are selling our pictures the same way they did 50 years ago,
Before scanners. What happens when our customers start purchasing
our minimum packages and scan them for additional prints.
Click to expand...
 
Zippy DooDah said:
A la carte is fine if you don't care about profits. Selling
packages yields higher sales.

Texturize your prints to keep the customer from getting a good scan.
Click to expand...
I suggest you respect your customer's wishes and don't assume they will respect your "rights." You MUST make your profit on the part of the process which your customer hired you, not the part which the customer is likely able to outperform you. That's what's called your "value proposition."

Your value proposition is the time and expertise which only you have: in other words, get paid to pose and expose them expertly.

Your value proposition is NOT to act as a reseller of pearl surfaced textiles and silver halide chemicals.

Your value proposition is NOT to act as judge and executioner in legal copyright disputes about whether the customer can make an extra laserjet 4x6 for their office cubicle wall.

If you're not making a profit on your value proposition, then you will be extinct in a few years. Just give it time.

--
[ e d @ h a l l e y . c c ] http://www.halley.cc/pix/
 
I make a profit on EVERY step of the process.

Why in the world would you want to only make a profit on the "pose and expose" part only? I make a profit there and then try to make a profit on every other area that I can sell the customer. I don't give anything away for free unless it's to convince a customer to buy something else which is more expensive.

To make a profit only on the "value proposition" (as you put it) is to limit your financial potential. I don't understand your reasoning of making a profit in one area only as this would seem to be the sure way to bankruptcy. Why in the world would you want to limit yourself?
Ed Halley said:
Ed Halley wrote:
Zippy DooDah said:
A la carte is fine if you don't care about profits. Selling
packages yields higher sales.

Texturize your prints to keep the customer from getting a good scan.
Click to expand...
I suggest you respect your customer's wishes and don't assume they
will respect your "rights." You MUST make your profit on the part
of the process which your customer hired you, not the part which
the customer is likely able to outperform you. That's what's
called your "value proposition."

Your value proposition is the time and expertise which only you
have: in other words, get paid to pose and expose them expertly.

Your value proposition is NOT to act as a reseller of pearl
surfaced textiles and silver halide chemicals.

Your value proposition is NOT to act as judge and executioner in
legal copyright disputes about whether the customer can make an
extra laserjet 4x6 for their office cubicle wall.

If you're not making a profit on your value proposition, then you
will be extinct in a few years. Just give it time.

--
[ e d @ h a l l e y . c c ] http://www.halley.cc/pix/
Click to expand...
 
if i can take the liberty of interpreting Ed's comments, i think he's talking about long term viability in an open market. the theory is that, over sufficient time, everything in an open market balances out.

the obvious questions are 1) how 'open' is the market? and 2) how long a period of time? my opinion is that the market is wide open and getting more so fast. this means the customers are getting wise to all the tricks and there is more competition every day willing to forego a little extra profit to steal the next guy's market share. this makes it easy for customer's to move to a lower cost supplier.

summary: i think Zippy, that you are somewhat wrong today and likely to be very wrong inside two years. you may get away with charging a customer extras today. but the customers are quickly getting smarter and won't come back to you or refer you. they will move on to other options -- ones that don't do things like:
Zippy DooDah said:
Zippy DooDah said:
Zippy DooDah said:
Texturize your prints to keep the customer from getting a good scan.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
this is when Ed's point becomes valid -- as a market matures, competition increases and all the creative ways to charge extra have been exploited. then players have to fall back on their core value proposition to continue to make money....dav

--
don't wait for technology -- it won't wait for you
 
Thank you for your comments.

I just spent the week with Larry Peters who runs a multi-million dollar operation in Ohio. He does ALL of the things I discussed. Unless you, too, are running a multi-million dollar operation, with all due respect to you, I think Larry's advice is more meaningful as he's been doing this for over 20 years (and bills over 2 million per year).

I was surprised you zeroed in on the "texturize to prevent scanning" comment I made. So your solution is to sell just one 8x10 print at a high price and let people scan away to make 100 more prints that bring you zero profit?

The bottom line is you have to have good images... you're selling what's on the paper, not the paper itself. It's that ability to produce good work which will make people select one photographer over another and not necessarily the price. My aim is to ensure that good images aren't just given away for free and that I can sell lots of packages instead of just one 8x10.
dannv said:
dannv wrote:
if i can take the liberty of interpreting Ed's comments, i think
he's talking about long term viability in an open market. the
theory is that, over sufficient time, everything in an open market
balances out.

the obvious questions are 1) how 'open' is the market? and 2) how
long a period of time? my opinion is that the market is wide open
and getting more so fast. this means the customers are getting
wise to all the tricks and there is more competition every day
willing to forego a little extra profit to steal the next guy's
market share. this makes it easy for customer's to move to a lower
cost supplier.

summary: i think Zippy, that you are somewhat wrong today and
likely to be very wrong inside two years. you may get away with
charging a customer extras today. but the customers are quickly
getting smarter and won't come back to you or refer you. they will
move on to other options -- ones that don't do things like:
dannv said:
dannv said:
dannv said:
Texturize your prints to keep the customer from getting a good scan.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
this is when Ed's point becomes valid -- as a market matures,
competition increases and all the creative ways to charge extra
have been exploited. then players have to fall back on their core
value proposition to continue to make money....dav

--
don't wait for technology -- it won't wait for you
Click to expand...
 
Cathy said:
If we charge a creation fee, then why do we have to offer packages?
I'm trying to simplify pricing. I find that it's a pain in the a$%
to try and make sure that my packages make sense compared to
alacarte pricing. Also when offering online ordering, it's
difficult to make up packages (I use a breezebrowser template).
I'm sure that there must be a reason that photogs have done it this
way for so long, but I can't figure out why. Wouldn't it be easier
and just as profitable to charge all orders alacarte prices?
Click to expand...
Cathy,

We operate a medium to high end portrait studio in Canada for the last 60 years....no I'm not 90, I'm 3rd generation! I won't get into dollars and cents but I'll say we are successfull. I think both package systems and a'la carte systems work, its all in how you present them and sell them to your client. We do about 50% senior graduation work which is all packages but our portrait work is all a'la carte with projection sales. We shifted our portrait sales to gear it towards large wall portraits 30 and 40 inch images and found projection and a la cart worked much better than packages. We quadtrupled our portrait sales in 1 year by switching and it has been growing every year since. So the trick is to figure out what your goals are and impliment the best solution.
Good luck.
Marc MacArthur
http://www.heckbertstudio.com
 
you didn't mention what Larry's advice was? at the risk of jumping the gun though, it wouldn't necessarily invalidate my point. the way any photographer has been making gazillions for 20 years is going to get pinched. the market is catching up and, as it does, everyone will have to work harder to keep those profits up. to stretch the point: a lot of "Larrys" used to make a fortune selling buggy whips too.

my point about the 8x10 is people are going to do it anyway . if you try to "trap" them into not being able to do it, they will move to a photographer who doesn't take steps to prevent them from, in this case, using their home scanner. they'll say "ya know, i really like that Zippy's work but whenever i try to scan the pictures they come out bad -- so i switched to Ed." Ed may only make a sale on that one 8x10 -- but now, its one more sale you don't get.

i completely agree with your bottom line. and, by all means, continue to work hard to creatively charge as much as you can for your work and keep doing it as long as you can. more power to you (and me!)

my only point is that, over time, its going to get tougher. as it does, we'll all have to fall back on our core value proposition. as you put it: "have good images" or as Ed put it "pose 'em and expose 'em". when we get to the CVP, we're not selling the paper or packages of paper, we're selling our art...dav
Zippy DooDah said:
I just spent the week with Larry Peters who runs a multi-million
dollar operation in Ohio. He does ALL of the things I discussed.
Unless you, too, are running a multi-million dollar operation, with
all due respect to you, I think Larry's advice is more meaningful
as he's been doing this for over 20 years (and bills over 2 million
per year).

I was surprised you zeroed in on the "texturize to prevent
scanning" comment I made. So your solution is to sell just one
8x10 print at a high price and let people scan away to make 100
more prints that bring you zero profit?

The bottom line is you have to have good images... you're selling
what's on the paper, not the paper itself. It's that ability to
produce good work which will make people select one photographer
over another and not necessarily the price. My aim is to ensure
that good images aren't just given away for free and that I can
sell lots of packages instead of just one 8x10.
Zippy DooDah said:
dannv wrote:
if i can take the liberty of interpreting Ed's comments, i think
he's talking about long term viability in an open market. the
theory is that, over sufficient time, everything in an open market
balances out.

the obvious questions are 1) how 'open' is the market? and 2) how
long a period of time? my opinion is that the market is wide open
and getting more so fast. this means the customers are getting
wise to all the tricks and there is more competition every day
willing to forego a little extra profit to steal the next guy's
market share. this makes it easy for customer's to move to a lower
cost supplier.

summary: i think Zippy, that you are somewhat wrong today and
likely to be very wrong inside two years. you may get away with
charging a customer extras today. but the customers are quickly
getting smarter and won't come back to you or refer you. they will
move on to other options -- ones that don't do things like:
Zippy DooDah said:
Zippy DooDah said:
Zippy DooDah said:
Texturize your prints to keep the customer from getting a good scan.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
this is when Ed's point becomes valid -- as a market matures,
competition increases and all the creative ways to charge extra
have been exploited. then players have to fall back on their core
value proposition to continue to make money....dav

--
don't wait for technology -- it won't wait for you
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
don't wait for technology -- it won't wait for you
 
I don't really want the one 8x10 sale; Ed can have those clients along with Sears and Wal*Mart. I want the client who understands they're buying more than a piece of paper and is willing to buy a package because they place value on the image on the paper. Ed may make one more 8x10 sale than I do, but I make ten times the profit Ed does from each customer, so Ed has to work ten times as hard.

Personally, I think ALL photographers (even Ed, Sears, and Wal*Mart) should be texturizing their prints to ensure that people can't scan them. Do you put a copyright signature on your prints? If so, then you are halfway there to agreeing with me already! I'm not sure that I agree with your statement that my protecting my copyrighted images by texturizing them is to "trap" people (as you put it).
dannv said:
dannv wrote:
my point about the 8x10 is people are going to do it anyway . if
you try to "trap" them into not being able to do it, they will move
to a photographer who doesn't take steps to prevent them from, in
this case, using their home scanner. they'll say "ya know, i
really like that Zippy's work but whenever i try to scan the
pictures they come out bad -- so i switched to Ed." Ed may only
make a sale on that one 8x10 -- but now, its one more sale you
don't get.
Click to expand...
 
dannv said:
my point about the 8x10 is people are going to do it anyway . if
you try to "trap" them into not being able to do it, they will move
to a photographer who doesn't take steps to prevent them from, in
this case, using their home scanner. they'll say "ya know, i
really like that Zippy's work but whenever i try to scan the
pictures they come out bad -- so i switched to Ed." Ed may only
make a sale on that one 8x10 -- but now, its one more sale you
don't get.
Click to expand...
IF all I can sell is one 8x10 then I am marketing myself to the wrong clientel. And I have yet to meet anyone that said, "I tried to scan and print and the scan looked like cr@p so I am gonna use another photog so my scanner will work better."

However, I will market myself to clients who want only one big canvas print. So far my business model is making me money and they can't scan that puppy anyway! LOL! Heck if they spend the price I charge for canvas prints I will give them web versions of my files for free so they can send them to grandma.

--
Clint Smith
Tinker Photography
If God is love, and love is blind . . . Ray Charles must be God!
 
i'm not quite following you...

when you talk about people buying the value of the image not the paper, it seems you're agreeing with me. what does a package have to do with the value of the image?

the issue isn't that you make 10x more than "Ed" and are willing to forego the 1x customers. it is that, over time and for a given set of parameters, all customers are moving from 10x to 1x. if photographers don't either 1) start accomodating them or 2) come up with creative new parameters (i.e. package features), then you will lose all your customers to "Ed".

if your argument is you would rather continue to focus on new packages/features than begin selling 1-offs, i would generally support you.

as for the texturizing example, copyright includes "fair use" which includes copies for personal use. its a reasonably representative example of how technology is obsoleting some features of today's packages. in this example: as soon as "everybody" has a scanner, this feature will become less valuable and must be dropped, else it will become a detractor from the value of the package -- and the image itself....dav

--
don't wait for technology -- it won't wait for you
 
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