Compatibility: non-D AF and manual focus lenses

mx · Apr 27, 2004

Hi there

Does anyone know more about lens compatibility? I own a couple of very nice non-CPU manual focus lenses and some "non-D" AF lenses. I wounder what kind of limitations I will encounter when I use them with a D70.

dpreview states in the D70 review:

• Other AF Nikkor : All functions supported except 3D color matrix metering

• Non-CPU : Can be used in exposure mode M, but exposure meter does not function

What does this mean? When I use a non-D AF lens, what kind of metering will be available? Only "matrix" instead of "3D matrix"? Or maybe only center-weighted metering?

For non-CPU manual focus lenses: Is there really no metering available? This would, in my opinion, render all old lenses virtually useless (this would be a "nice" Nikon Marketing trick...)

mx

photomik · Apr 27, 2004

mx said:
Hi there

Does anyone know more about lens compatibility? I own a couple of
very nice non-CPU manual focus lenses and some "non-D" AF lenses. I
wounder what kind of limitations I will encounter when I use them
with a D70.

dpreview states in the D70 review:

• Other AF Nikkor : All functions supported except 3D color matrix
metering

• Non-CPU : Can be used in exposure mode M, but exposure meter does
not function

What does this mean? When I use a non-D AF lens, what kind of
metering will be available? Only "matrix" instead of "3D matrix"?
Or maybe only center-weighted metering?

Hmmm...good question about 3D color matrix vs regular matrix.

mx said:
For non-CPU manual focus lenses: Is there really no metering
available? This would, in my opinion, render all old lenses
virtually useless (this would be a "nice" Nikon Marketing trick...)

I've been here. ;-( Yes, no metering whatsoever. But since it's digital, I use the histogram to meter after the fact. Probably good exercise to master lighting.

mx said:
mx

Walt Palmer · Apr 27, 2004

AF lenses would have everything except 3D matrix metering available. Non-CPU lenses would have no metering available; you would have to guess at the exposure or use a separate exposure meter - and focus manually as well.

Really not that difficult, that's what we all used to do in the days before automatic exposure and focussing - and for critical shots, many people still revert back to what works at a very basic level - measured exposure and manual focussing. Your old lenses can still work for you if you use them like you always used them before.

[w]

mx said:
Hi there

Does anyone know more about lens compatibility? I own a couple of
very nice non-CPU manual focus lenses and some "non-D" AF lenses. I
wounder what kind of limitations I will encounter when I use them
with a D70.

dpreview states in the D70 review:

• Other AF Nikkor : All functions supported except 3D color matrix
metering

• Non-CPU : Can be used in exposure mode M, but exposure meter does
not function

What does this mean? When I use a non-D AF lens, what kind of
metering will be available? Only "matrix" instead of "3D matrix"?
Or maybe only center-weighted metering?

For non-CPU manual focus lenses: Is there really no metering
available? This would, in my opinion, render all old lenses
virtually useless (this would be a "nice" Nikon Marketing trick...)

mx

Henry Goh193503 · Apr 28, 2004

http://www.pbase.com/image/28390180/jpg
85mm f/1.4 lens

16mm f/2.8 fisheye lens

20mm f/2.8 lens

16mm f/2.8 fisheye lens

Henry Goh
----------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/henry_h_c_goh

mx · Apr 28, 2004

photomik said:
digital, I use the histogram to meter after the fact.

Thanks for the hint, very good idea. I will try that as soon as I get my (ordered) D70. I understand that the histogram is only available in "playback mode". Is that correct? What do you do with the white balance in the manual focus non-CPU case?

Looks like Nikon is trying to persuade people to dump old lenses: My F5 has reduced metering capabilites when used with MF lenses - my F4 did not have this marketing-driven feature maiming... And the D70? Well, it has a different price tag of course, but shutting down the meter when used with old lenses looks like the same strategy. The good old Nikon compatibility days are gone for good...

mx

engp9663 · Apr 28, 2004

As beeen mentioned, the MF AI, AI-S, AI-P lens can be mounted but no metering. Simply because there is no aperture coupling ring in the D70, same as D100.

However, to use your MF lens on D70 is not that difficult. You can set the D70 to have histogram display AFTER the shoot, it works well provded you do have time for the somehow iterative process. if you want to use this approach in dynamic moving targets or lighting conditions, then you will be disappointed..

Have Fun and Enjoy your D70 + MF lens

Henry Goh193503 · Apr 28, 2004

I believe your post should be for the originator of this thread and not me right?

engp9663 said:
As beeen mentioned, the MF AI, AI-S, AI-P lens can be mounted but
no metering. Simply because there is no aperture coupling ring in
the D70, same as D100.

However, to use your MF lens on D70 is not that difficult. You can
set the D70 to have histogram display AFTER the shoot, it works
well provded you do have time for the somehow iterative process.
if you want to use this approach in dynamic moving targets or
lighting conditions, then you will be disappointed..

Have Fun and Enjoy your D70 + MF lens

--
-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/henry_h_c_goh

KeenAmatuer · Apr 28, 2004

Non-CPU lenses will have no metering of any kind.

Not really a problem as u can use the Sunny 16 rule and bracketing. You also have the histogram

mx said:
Hi there

Does anyone know more about lens compatibility? I own a couple of
very nice non-CPU manual focus lenses and some "non-D" AF lenses. I
wounder what kind of limitations I will encounter when I use them
with a D70.

dpreview states in the D70 review:

• Other AF Nikkor : All functions supported except 3D color matrix
metering

• Non-CPU : Can be used in exposure mode M, but exposure meter does
not function

What does this mean? When I use a non-D AF lens, what kind of
metering will be available? Only "matrix" instead of "3D matrix"?
Or maybe only center-weighted metering?

For non-CPU manual focus lenses: Is there really no metering
available? This would, in my opinion, render all old lenses
virtually useless (this would be a "nice" Nikon Marketing trick...)

mx

mx · Apr 28, 2004

engp9663 said:
As beeen mentioned, the MF AI, AI-S, AI-P lens can be mounted but
no metering. Simply because there is no aperture coupling ring in
the D70, same as D100.

Thanks for your answer. When using MF lenses, do you set the aperture at the good ol' ring at the back of the lens or with the dial of the D70?

Concerning the aperture coupling ring: I don't think this is a necessary ingredient to metering. Look at the the old MF 35mm shift lens: It does not have any aperture coupling because the aperture (and the aperture dial) is at the front of the lens. So the camera does not know about the aperture setting and can therefore not use the standard "spring aperture" measurement. In that case a typical Nikon camera would revert to old fashioned (like standard in the ealy 70s) "non-spring aperture" measurement, i.e. it just measures the light that comes through the lens and computes the exposure without allowing for the setting of the aperture ring.

mx

Henry Goh193503 · Apr 28, 2004

If you are an old film shooter, you would shoot it like you would shoot a Leica or Nikon F.

Either you measure exposure with an external meter or like me you just judge from experience. Then, you watch the histogram, see where the right most side is located. If need be, you compensate by changing aperture opening or speed or even ISO (which I would not recommend).

You change aperture by turning on the ring and not through the dial as there is no communication between D70 and lens. Speed you change by turning on the Command dial.

Photos will turn out as good as the old days if not better. Perhaps we can call this version MD70

O> )

Henry Goh
-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/henry_h_c_goh

Green Chili · Apr 28, 2004

mx said:
For non-CPU manual focus lenses: Is there really no metering
available? This would, in my opinion, render all old lenses
virtually useless (this would be a "nice" Nikon Marketing trick...)

Yes, that was what I also feared... but then I realized that even without manual metering it is not a problem at all to get excellent results with your MF lenses:

If you do have the time for a second or third shot, you can simply check the result of the first one and change your settings if possible - this is digital after all; and you can use bracketing and the histogram. If there's only one chance to get a shot, it's of course guessing and experience only - but you'll get used to that very quickly!

engp9663 · Apr 28, 2004

MX,

D70 does not know the aperture setting you intend to use nor step it down from the widest open metering when you press the shutter release.

To use the MF lens in D70/D100, you need to set to M mode, adjust the aperture ring, take a test shoot, look at the histogram then adjust the aperture/shutter speed again. It does not take long if you used to use Nikon MF bodies.Maybe nikon wants to sell more AF lens and peoples like us is not the majority of Nikon D70 buyers. D1/D1x/D2/D2H do support Nikon MF lens, hope the D100 replacement will have support it.

I don't have experience in shift lens, it seems to me it does not have the auto steping down function, am I right ?

When I purchased D70 in late Feburary, I thought I will only use the kit lens plus my old favorite AI lens (15 f1.4, 85 F1.4, 105 micro, 180 Ed, 300 ED). However, I tested the 70-210 F2.8 AFS VR in the camera shop and ended up bought it on the spot. The lens is GREAT and changes my view on AF.

If you are planning shooting macro, the AF is basically useless.

Alternatively, you may cansider to have your AI lens modified, see the link
http://www.naturfotograf.com/index2.html

I chose not to modifed the lens, mainly due to the fact not all my AI lens can be modified. Secondly, I still put my slim hope on the "AI capable" D200. Thirdly, I lived in Singapore and don't feel comfortable to send my lens overseas......

Have Fun..

Engp9663

mx said:
mx said:

As beeen mentioned, the MF AI, AI-S, AI-P lens can be mounted but
no metering. Simply because there is no aperture coupling ring in
the D70, same as D100.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your answer. When using MF lenses, do you set the
aperture at the good ol' ring at the back of the lens or with the
dial of the D70?

Concerning the aperture coupling ring: I don't think this is a
necessary ingredient to metering. Look at the the old MF 35mm shift
lens: It does not have any aperture coupling because the aperture
(and the aperture dial) is at the front of the lens. So the camera
does not know about the aperture setting and can therefore not use
the standard "spring aperture" measurement. In that case a typical
Nikon camera would revert to old fashioned (like standard in the
ealy 70s) "non-spring aperture" measurement, i.e. it just measures
the light that comes through the lens and computes the exposure
without allowing for the setting of the aperture ring.

mx

mx · Apr 28, 2004

engp9663 said:
D1/D1x/D2/D2H do support Nikon MF lens, hope the D100 replacement

I see. The D70 is a temporary thing for me anyway. Basically I would like to have something like a digital F5 (i.e. $2000 odd would be acceptable to me). But the D2 and its siblings are just too expensive for me. With that "digital F5" I will probably get rid of the MF problem. Meanwhile the histogram trick could also work for me.

But I fear I will never get rid of the 1.5x problem... (at least not within the price segment I'm planning to buy)

engp9663 said:
I don't have experience in shift lens, it seems to me it does not
have the auto steping down function, am I right ?

That's right. There is neither a mechanical nor an electronic link between the aperture and the camera body. You have to "step down" the aperture manually.

engp9663 said:
micro, 180 Ed, 300 ED). However, I tested the 70-210 F2.8 AFS VR in

Does the VR work well? I have never tested one of those.

engp9663 said:
If you are planning shooting macro, the AF is basically useless.

I own a 60mm AF (not the D version) macro lens - and from experience I can fully acknowledge your statement.

Thanks again,

mx

dog010 · Apr 28, 2004

Of the manual focus lenses only the 45mm 2.8 P and a 500mm P will function normally- these have both been chipped from the production line. The 45mm was released with FM3A and the 500mm was a special edition I think.

Nikon's marketing seems a little skewed at the moment. They release a D70 without AI coupling ring; ok, fine it's not the intended market.

But the D100- I'd have expected that to have the AI coupling ring. Only because this is built off an F80 body? So are they trying to kill off MF lenses?

Apparently not. They released the FM3A in 2001 and the FM10/FE10 in 1996 and they still produce some manual focus lenses and even design new ones...

--
Michael King

Who cares how you get the shot; just photograph it and photograph it well

http://www.photo.net/photodb/member-photos?include=all&user_id=816617
http://www.mk.fpic.co.uk/

photomik · Apr 28, 2004

mx said:
mx said:

digital, I use the histogram to meter after the fact.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the hint, very good idea. I will try that as soon as I
get my (ordered) D70. I understand that the histogram is only
available in "playback mode".

Histogram on after each shot. Use the cursor knob to loop through the display.

Is that correct? What do you do with

mx said:
the white balance in the manual focus non-CPU case?

That's my difficulty, since no metering the manual preset doesn't work either. But if you shoot in NEF, you can do some kind of adjustment in NC4.1. Try to bring a gray/white card to shoot the first frame if the subject is not too far or permits it. This picture can be used to WB the others.

mx said:
Looks like Nikon is trying to persuade people to dump old lenses:
My F5 has reduced metering capabilites when used with MF lenses -
my F4 did not have this marketing-driven feature maiming... And the
D70? Well, it has a different price tag of course, but shutting
down the meter when used with old lenses looks like the same
strategy. The good old Nikon compatibility days are gone for good...

I was so mad at them about this that I sold as much as I can and was going to go with Canon. Unfortunately, the 10D is still short for what I'm looking for and at 1.5X the price for a temp DSLR plus other reasons. I'm still going to hold back but perhaps purchase the a 70-300 Nikon or Sigma just to get the range with the auto features. The old AI lense with no metering is too slow to use. For flash, I still have an SB-20 that nobody wanted so I'm using that for now, it works just fine. Unfortunately though I have a graduation and a wedding shoot. I may have to go Nikon again. Shoot!!! And oh yeah...the price for 2 or 3 SB-800...ouch!

mx said:
mx

mx · Apr 28, 2004

photomik said:
For flash, I still have an SB-20 that nobody wanted so I'm using
that for now, it works just fine. Unfortunately though I have a

I still have my trusty SB-16 - I wonder whether it will work with the D70. From the data in the D70 specs I wasn't able to tell what the SB-16 will do when connected to a D70.

mx

photomik · Apr 29, 2004

Just read my manual about cpu lenses, all will meter 3D color except the two types below which will meter via Color Matrix: (ALL will meter CW and spot though).

Other AF Nikkors (except lenses for F3AF)
AI-P Nikkors

Your SB-16 flash will be same as mine: Non-TTL auto, Manual and Rear-curtain sync.

Hope that helps.

mx said:
mx said:

For flash, I still have an SB-20 that nobody wanted so I'm using
that for now, it works just fine. Unfortunately though I have a

Click to expand...

I still have my trusty SB-16 - I wonder whether it will work with
the D70. From the data in the D70 specs I wasn't able to tell what
the SB-16 will do when connected to a D70.

mx

mx · Apr 30, 2004

photomik said:
Hope that helps.

yes it does, thanks,

mx

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