Long time storage solution

John_of_LA · Apr 22, 2004

Hi,

What do you guy use? I have been using CD-R as my primary permanent storage. However, I've just had one fail on me (luckily, I have TWO copies on each disc). The one that failed has 2 years life on it. It is not being use more than 10 times (during 2 year period), and it was written at the same time with the one that does not fail.

The disc is not the cheapest one and it has a good brand on it. I keep them in CD-wallet... locked, inside the carbinet so light and moisure are not my issue here.

It's kinda scary here. Reading new article that Phil's post make me even more freak out

I couldn't imagine if both disk fails!
Any good suggestion here?

Thanks,
John

Man-Fai Wong · Apr 22, 2004

Yeah, you're not the first. Someone over in the D70 forum won't trust his CDRs for more than a couple years anymore -- he apparently had quite a few failed discs after 2 years. The article seems to suggest maybe CDRW is better, so maybe I'll go that route from now on. Also, sounds like best to go w/ slower burn speeds, always maintain dupes and also on HDD, and keep in dark, dry place. And then, maybe always re-burn every 2 years or whenever you spot a failed disc (whichever comes first).

Man

John_of_LA said:
Hi,
What do you guy use? I have been using CD-R as my primary permanent
storage. However, I've just had one fail on me (luckily, I have TWO
copies on each disc). The one that failed has 2 years life on it.
It is not being use more than 10 times (during 2 year period), and
it was written at the same time with the one that does not fail.
The disc is not the cheapest one and it has a good brand on it. I
keep them in CD-wallet... locked, inside the carbinet so light and
moisure are not my issue here.
It's kinda scary here. Reading new article that Phil's post make me
even more freak out I couldn't imagine if both disk fails!
Any good suggestion here?

Thanks,
John

--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.' (John 8:12)
Motto for the season: 'Cameras are for making photos, not war...'
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong

Boyan50503 · Apr 22, 2004

I think simplest for most to do is this:
1) Burn on CDs
2) Burn on DVDs

Use slow speeds and branded media.

If you wanna really make sure, you can as well buy an external firewire and/or usb 2.0 hard disk 3.5" of 250 GB and have everything in ONE place and very quickly accessible. If you go this way, I'd not burn CDs, but just DVDs as second backup (well if you keep photos on your computer is same, no need for external disk) - DVD backups should be "perfectly" enough.

Also consider that you'd need about 400 CDs to backup 250 GB of photos.

400 CDs cost about $200 (not even mentioning price of CD recorder and most of all the time needed to burn everything at SLOW speeds), 250 GB hard disk costs about the same!! And that's about 53 DVD media, which cost about $130... Also, isn't DVD media lasting longer than CD media?!

I need to burn some more DVDs tomorrow! Hope one more nite wont be fatal

Ciao,
Boyan

John_of_LA said:
Hi,
What do you guy use? I have been using CD-R as my primary permanent
storage. However, I've just had one fail on me (luckily, I have TWO
copies on each disc). The one that failed has 2 years life on it.
It is not being use more than 10 times (during 2 year period), and
it was written at the same time with the one that does not fail.
The disc is not the cheapest one and it has a good brand on it. I
keep them in CD-wallet... locked, inside the carbinet so light and
moisure are not my issue here.
It's kinda scary here. Reading new article that Phil's post make me
even more freak out I couldn't imagine if both disk fails!
Any good suggestion here?

Thanks,
John

Boyan50503 · Apr 22, 2004

More than 100 years projected lifetime for DVD-R General
http://www.wpoint.co.uk/pdf/100_year_DVDR.pdf

...even if the real truth is 10 times less, means 10 years

I'd say 20-30 years is safe bet. You?

Felipe Rodríguez · Apr 22, 2004

I had just the same experience... but my CD was newer and I had only one copy! (I could recover most photos, though). Now I'm using DVDs, but I'm thinking that, if they fade as well, you will lost a much bigger information per disc... Scary, really scary...

John_of_LA said:
Hi,
What do you guy use? I have been using CD-R as my primary permanent
storage. However, I've just had one fail on me (luckily, I have TWO
copies on each disc). The one that failed has 2 years life on it.
It is not being use more than 10 times (during 2 year period), and
it was written at the same time with the one that does not fail.
The disc is not the cheapest one and it has a good brand on it. I
keep them in CD-wallet... locked, inside the carbinet so light and
moisure are not my issue here.
It's kinda scary here. Reading new article that Phil's post make me
even more freak out I couldn't imagine if both disk fails!
Any good suggestion here?

Thanks,
John

--
http://www.beatusille.net
'Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?'
Groucho Marx

(Gear list in profile)

sueanne · Apr 22, 2004

Why do movies DVD last longer than burned CDs?

sue anne
-------------------------------------

Felipe Rodríguez said:
John_of_LA said:

Hi,
What do you guy use? I have been using CD-R as my primary permanent
storage. However, I've just had one fail on me (luckily, I have TWO
copies on each disc). The one that failed has 2 years life on it.
It is not being use more than 10 times (during 2 year period), and
it was written at the same time with the one that does not fail.
The disc is not the cheapest one and it has a good brand on it. I
keep them in CD-wallet... locked, inside the carbinet so light and
moisure are not my issue here.
It's kinda scary here. Reading new article that Phil's post make me
even more freak out I couldn't imagine if both disk fails!
Any good suggestion here?

Thanks,
John

Click to expand...

--
http://www.beatusille.net
'Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?'
Groucho Marx

(Gear list in profile)

cloudless · Apr 22, 2004

Harddisks only have a few years of lifetime too. If the harddisk fails and you reach for the DVD and find out it is dead too, then you've got nothing. I'm thinking perhaps tape is the way to go.

--
my photoblog in Hong Kong:
http://cloudless.net

masterdon · Apr 22, 2004

Same goes with music CDs that you buy from the record store. Aren't they based on the same technology as CD-Rs, unless recording industry uses a special recording methods that make CDs last a long time.

I still have 15 years old music CDs and they still work fine.

Man-Fai Wong · Apr 22, 2004

In such an event, you could probably get most, if not all, of the HDD and/or DVD recovered by a service bureau. Of course, it'll cost you a pretty penny to do so, so you'll have to weigh the likelihood/risks involved.

I forget the details, but last I heard a few years ago, it cost maybe $100 to recover data from a dead HDD over here in the US. Might be more now since a failed HDD today would likely be much larger capacity than one from a few years ago.

Man

cloudless said:
Harddisks only have a few years of lifetime too. If the harddisk
fails and you reach for the DVD and find out it is dead too, then
you've got nothing. I'm thinking perhaps tape is the way to go.

--
my photoblog in Hong Kong:
http://cloudless.net

--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.' (John 8:12)
Motto for the season: 'Cameras are for making photos, not war...'
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong

Man-Fai Wong · Apr 22, 2004

They are very different. Pressed CD/DVDs use physical pits on the metallic layer and have far longer life-span. The recordable discs use a dye layer, and the dye can fade much easier/faster than the metallic layer would deteriorate in pressed discs.

Man

masterdon said:
Same goes with music CDs that you buy from the record store. Aren't
they based on the same technology as CD-Rs, unless recording
industry uses a special recording methods that make CDs last a long
time.

I still have 15 years old music CDs and they still work fine.

--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.' (John 8:12)
Motto for the season: 'Cameras are for making photos, not war...'
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong

AceQuake · Apr 22, 2004

I have cds that are like 5 years old and still work you know it could be all on the burner etc cds I got cds from like 97

that I burn even longer I think I forget ..
but this is a good post I have like 2 backup of my camera pictures on cds

soon it be on dvd everytime I get new photo I make a new cd and I put the old picture on the new cd so I even have more backup ...

Man-Fai Wong said:
Man

masterdon said:

Same goes with music CDs that you buy from the record store. Aren't
they based on the same technology as CD-Rs, unless recording
industry uses a special recording methods that make CDs last a long
time.

I still have 15 years old music CDs and they still work fine.

Click to expand...

--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.'
(John 8:12)
Motto for the season: 'Cameras are for making photos, not war...'
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong

--
How will this end ? In fire !

Daniel185158 · Apr 22, 2004

http://news.independent.co.uk/world...sp?story=513486

Daniel185158 · Apr 22, 2004

Boyan said:
More than 100 years projected lifetime for DVD-R General
http://www.wpoint.co.uk/pdf/100_year_DVDR.pdf

...even if the real truth is 10 times less, means 10 years
I'd say 20-30 years is safe bet. You?

Read the article i posted, i wouldn't trust a DVD or a CD-R more than 2 years. I know this guy working at sun micro system. He does double backups on DVD every 2 months, and he does that with ALL his images. So he never has a DVD older than 2 months.

Daniel185158 · Apr 22, 2004

Tape would be the way to go, but you have to re-record every 10 years or so to be sure the magnetics don't fade away.

AceQuake said:
that I burn even longer I think I forget ..
but this is a good post I have like 2 backup of my camera
pictures on cds
soon it be on dvd everytime I get new photo I make a new cd and
I put the old picture on the new cd so I even have more backup
...

Man-Fai Wong said:

Man

masterdon said:

Same goes with music CDs that you buy from the record store. Aren't
they based on the same technology as CD-Rs, unless recording
industry uses a special recording methods that make CDs last a long
time.

I still have 15 years old music CDs and they still work fine.

Click to expand...

--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.'
(John 8:12)
Motto for the season: 'Cameras are for making photos, not war...'
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong

Click to expand...

--
How will this end ? In fire !

Jan Aarts · Apr 23, 2004

Daniel said:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world...sp?story=513486

This article refers to an article in a dutch magazine.
Some observations from this original article:

most problem CD's were non brand CD's, but bought in drugstores.
the examples showed the problem was mainly caused by the coloured print on the CD. The ink of the print had degraded the CD.
No specific manufacturers were mentioned.

In the current C't (german magazine), an article shows the durance of CD's and DVD's after using CD labels.

Putting a paper lable on a DVD will almost certainly make parts of the DVD unreadable because it deforms the DVD beyond the DVD specifications.
(see http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/46600 for the german readers)

See also :
http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq07.html#S7-5

Seismo · Apr 23, 2004

Daniel said:
Tape would be the way to go, but you have to re-record every 10
years or so to be sure the magnetics don't fade away.

That's if you can still get the tapes in 10 years' time. I've been working in IT professionally for 14 years now and can think of at least 4 tape formats we used to use but (AFAIK) no longer have a single drive for. By all means pick one that's widely used now, but be aware that you may be forced to change sooner than you might like.

Richard

Seismo · Apr 23, 2004

The article in the Independent that seems to have sparked all this debate refers briefly to RW media with the throw-away remark that "not all optical media is vulnerable". Does anyone have any theoretical knowledge or real-world experience of CD-RW or DVD-RW lifetimes?

Richard

Boyan50503 · Apr 23, 2004

To me that is not smart at all, to backup every 2 months on DVDs, I'd 100000x rather buy two external hard disks every few years for LESS money as he is putting in backup now..

Seriously, I see no point in such practice. If he would have two hard disks dedicated to photos (and store them on separate locations), not only he'd be very, very safe, whole backup procedure would be very, very fast and access to all images the same.

Daniel said:
Boyan said:

More than 100 years projected lifetime for DVD-R General
http://www.wpoint.co.uk/pdf/100_year_DVDR.pdf

...even if the real truth is 10 times less, means 10 years
I'd say 20-30 years is safe bet. You?

Click to expand...

Read the article i posted, i wouldn't trust a DVD or a CD-R more
than 2 years. I know this guy working at sun micro system. He does
double backups on DVD every 2 months, and he does that with ALL his
images. So he never has a DVD older than 2 months.

Boyan50503 · Apr 23, 2004

The chance that both fail before you notice is smaller than you winning at a lottery...

You could as well use TWO dedicated hard disks and store then on separate locations, and for 3rd backup have DVDs.

Tape is slow in ALL ways.

cloudless said:
Harddisks only have a few years of lifetime too. If the harddisk
fails and you reach for the DVD and find out it is dead too, then
you've got nothing. I'm thinking perhaps tape is the way to go.

--
my photoblog in Hong Kong:
http://cloudless.net

Boyan50503 · Apr 23, 2004

I don't undersant how no one suggests hard disks for backups. Two dedicated hard disk for photos are can last longer than CDs or DVDs, backuping on them via firewire or usb 2.0 is way faster, and you always have EVERYTHING on one place and accessing ANY photo you imagine is way faster.

Even today a 250 GB hard disk cost as much as ammout of CDs to store 250 GB.... To not mention the time needed to record that much CDs (especially since it is recommened to burn at 8x speed or even less).

Long time storage solution

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