Public Photos

pgrupp said:

As American citizens, we have the right to control the commercial
use of our images. The right to control the images of our children
is even more cherished. These rights are granted to us by specific,
enforceable laws.

If you feel these are bad laws, and that companies should be free
to commercially use people's pictures any way they like without
first getting permission -- good for you -- go hire a lobbyist and
get the law changed.

Meanwhile, the laws are on the books in all the states I am aware
of, and there are enough of us that think it's good law that it'll
probably stay that way.

So what exactly is your beef with enforcing the law when somebody
clearly breaks it? If I get on the highway and exceed the speed
limit, I'm getting a speeding ticket, a trip to traffic school, and
a huge increase in my insurance rates. So if some corporation
steals a little girl's picture and uses it to enhance their revenue
stream, why SHOULDN'T they pay for that violation of soomebody's
rights? You either have a rule of law, where people and businesses
are held accountable for their actions, or you don't. Which do you
want?

IMHO, just because there are too many frivolous lawsuits in our
country, it doesn't mean you shouldn't sue when your rights are
flagrently violated. And if this company has half a brain, they'll
quietly settle before it goes to far, and all will be well.

Regards,
Paul
http://www.bangbangphoto.com

Importer said:

pgrupp said:

In the absence of any such agreement, I think you have a case
that's winnable. Use of your child's image without your permission
is definitely actionable.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV.

Regards,
Paul
http://www.bangbangphoto.com

Dennis Lathem said:

I haven't thought much about this subject until Saturday. We
received an advertisement flyer in the mail for a local amusement
park. There printed in the advertisement was a photograph of my
(then) 11 year old daughter plain as day with a friend riding in
the front of the roller coaster.

She went with her friend last year to this park. I asked her if
anyone said anything about taking her photgraph at the time she
visited. She said no.

I talked with the parent of the other child and she was wondering
about this as well.

They were in a public place, but this photo has shown up on a four
color advertisement that has been mailed to many thousands of
households in our metro area.

I have placed a call to the advertising department of this
amusement park, but I had to leave a message.

From what I have read on these forums such commercial use of a
photograph should have required a model release. Since she is a
minor only a parent could have signed such a release and neither me
or my wife has signed such a document.

I wonder if on the back of the ticket in the fine print they tell
you that they can use your image for commercial purposes if you use
the ticket to enter the park. Would this be legal?

--
CDL

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Pbase Supporter

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pgrupp said:

Some entertainment venues have, printed on the ticket, conditions
-- which often include their right to take your picture and use it
for whatever they want. If they have that, there's not much you can
do.

Click to expand...

Dennis Lathem said:

I haven't thought much about this subject until Saturday. We
received an advertisement flyer in the mail for a local amusement
park. There printed in the advertisement was a photograph of my
(then) 11 year old daughter plain as day with a friend riding in
the front of the roller coaster.

She went with her friend last year to this park. I asked her if
anyone said anything about taking her photgraph at the time she
visited. She said no.

Click to expand...

Importer said:

pgrupp said:

As American citizens, we have the right to control the commercial
use of our images. The right to control the images of our children
is even more cherished. These rights are granted to us by specific,
enforceable laws.

If you feel these are bad laws, and that companies should be free
to commercially use people's pictures any way they like without
first getting permission -- good for you -- go hire a lobbyist and
get the law changed.

Meanwhile, the laws are on the books in all the states I am aware
of, and there are enough of us that think it's good law that it'll
probably stay that way.

So what exactly is your beef with enforcing the law when somebody
clearly breaks it? If I get on the highway and exceed the speed
limit, I'm getting a speeding ticket, a trip to traffic school, and
a huge increase in my insurance rates. So if some corporation
steals a little girl's picture and uses it to enhance their revenue
stream, why SHOULDN'T they pay for that violation of soomebody's
rights? You either have a rule of law, where people and businesses
are held accountable for their actions, or you don't. Which do you
want?

IMHO, just because there are too many frivolous lawsuits in our
country, it doesn't mean you shouldn't sue when your rights are
flagrently violated. And if this company has half a brain, they'll
quietly settle before it goes to far, and all will be well.

Regards,
Paul
http://www.bangbangphoto.com

Importer said:

pgrupp said:

In the absence of any such agreement, I think you have a case
that's winnable. Use of your child's image without your permission
is definitely actionable.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV.

Regards,
Paul
http://www.bangbangphoto.com

Dennis Lathem said:

I haven't thought much about this subject until Saturday. We
received an advertisement flyer in the mail for a local amusement
park. There printed in the advertisement was a photograph of my
(then) 11 year old daughter plain as day with a friend riding in
the front of the roller coaster.

She went with her friend last year to this park. I asked her if
anyone said anything about taking her photgraph at the time she
visited. She said no.

I talked with the parent of the other child and she was wondering
about this as well.

They were in a public place, but this photo has shown up on a four
color advertisement that has been mailed to many thousands of
households in our metro area.

I have placed a call to the advertising department of this
amusement park, but I had to leave a message.

From what I have read on these forums such commercial use of a
photograph should have required a model release. Since she is a
minor only a parent could have signed such a release and neither me
or my wife has signed such a document.

I wonder if on the back of the ticket in the fine print they tell
you that they can use your image for commercial purposes if you use
the ticket to enter the park. Would this be legal?

--
CDL

See Profile for gear stuff
Pbase Supporter

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--

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--
Don't blame me. I just work here!
http://www.pbase.com/importer

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--

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--
Don't blame me. I just work here!
http://www.pbase.com/importer

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Dennis Lathem said:

pgrupp said:

Some entertainment venues have, printed on the ticket, conditions
-- which often include their right to take your picture and use it
for whatever they want. If they have that, there's not much you can
do.

Click to expand...

Well..I don't have a copy of the ticket. It might be that such a
right cannot adhere to a ticket contract because of a minor
involved, the fact that the ticket seller derived an additional
benefit without consideration to the ticket buyer, the seller was
in a position where only they can change the conditions of the
purchase or the ticket user not knowing such a condition exists.

Nonetheless, I just got off the phone with the Advertising manager
for the amusement park. He had the direct mail piece in front of
him and located the photo as I described it to him.

According to him, the professional photographer they hired to take
the photos for the piece represented to them that he had signed
model releases from all of the folks he took the photos of for the
advertising piece. The Advertising manager even added that if the
person is recognizable they they must have a release. This tells
me that he knows something about what is proper.

Under these circumstances I have no quarrell with the amusement
park, but with a "professional" photographer that would
mis-represent a situation like this. I would think the amusement
park would have wanted to see the model releases. I guess now they
will.

I have no intention of bringing any kind of action against anyone.
I think if the kids get a season pass out of it that will be fine.
The park is mailing me a model release for my consideration.

I just know which "professionals" in town to avoid.

--
CDL

See Profile for gear stuff
Pbase Supporter

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fjohn said:

What confuses me are all of the books of street photos by Gary
Winogrand, Helen Levitt, etc., etc.

I'm fairly doubtful that these photographers stopped to acquire
releases from the thousands of clearly identifiable people they
photographed. Yet, selling a book is a commercial enterprise,
isn’t it?

I’m probably missing something obvious here, but I’ve always
wondered about this.

(As a side note pertaining to a different subject, Winogrand’s
shots of people in airports really get to me. It’s painful to think
that the day’s of walking through an airport taking pictures of
everything and everybody are over, probably never to return again.)

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Frank from AZ said:

pgrupp said:

That's because for editorial usage, you DON'T need a model release.
Even if there is a commercial aspect to the editorial usage -- as
there is with every newspaper and magazine -- editorial usage is
protected by law, and no release is necessary.

I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, and this isn't legal
advice. If you need legal advice, you should consult a lawyer, not
an internet forum.

Click to expand...

Judging from the magazines used by the interviewees, most of their
pics don't classify as news in the journalistic sense. Why don't
you take a minute and read the interviews before jerking your knee?
Certainly there is no news in people walking around in the streets.
FYI, most attorneys don't practice copyright law or trademark law,
known as intellectual property law. I know, I've been practicing
law for over 15 years and know about as much as the subject as you
do. On a whim I asked some senior lawyers about the subject and
they all gave me that blank stare. It's a very specialized field.
And because my interest has been piqued, I've just ordered two
books regarding the law and photographers.

Frank from AZ said:

Frank from Phoenix

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Pentax *ist D

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Importer said:

Without trying to sound corny; turning the other cheek may be
order. I didn't realize that the original post said his calls
weren't being returned. If they are ignoring the problem, obviously
more has to be done. Here is my first experience with our legal
system when I was a college student. I was working a summer job for
a municipal park department. The old city truck I used had the
brakes fail while I was driving it. We ran a stop sign and a kid
broadsided the truck causing us to roll over. Trying to be brief,
nobody was seriously injured. I was knocked out, had a couple of
broken ribs and some imbedded glass. Nothing permanent. Attorneys
came from every where. Some trying to sue, and some trying to get
me to sign a waiver. I wouldn't do either and the more I ignored
them the more vocal they became, almost to the point of harassment.
Attorney speak "It was the city's fault because they failed to
maintain that truck. You are due compensation for your pain and
suffering". Bull Sh*t! It as an accident, stuff happens. Opposing
attorneys saying "well if you aren't going to sue, why not sign a
release holding the city harmless?" Same B Sh*t. Everyone wants
something on paper. I told them to just leave me alone. To this
day, once a year I get the same hold harmless release in the mail.
Lets see, that incident took place about 27 years ago. Now, would
you like to talk about my divorce? -grin

Don't blame me. I just work here!
http://www.pbase.com/importer

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pgrupp said:

So I guess we just draw lines in different places. If somebody
misappropriated my kid's image and used it for advertising without
my permission, I would want something done about it. I don't doubt
that others would feel differently, and that's certainly their
right. I guess the difference between us is -- I don't feel
comfortable criticising somebody who is simply exercising their
right to justice. Whether or not any of us chooses to exercise our
rights is our own business, regardless of what others think we
should do.

Importer said:

Without trying to sound corny; turning the other cheek may be
order. I didn't realize that the original post said his calls
weren't being returned. If they are ignoring the problem, obviously
more has to be done. Here is my first experience with our legal
system when I was a college student. I was working a summer job for
a municipal park department. The old city truck I used had the
brakes fail while I was driving it. We ran a stop sign and a kid
broadsided the truck causing us to roll over. Trying to be brief,
nobody was seriously injured. I was knocked out, had a couple of
broken ribs and some imbedded glass. Nothing permanent. Attorneys
came from every where. Some trying to sue, and some trying to get
me to sign a waiver. I wouldn't do either and the more I ignored
them the more vocal they became, almost to the point of harassment.
Attorney speak "It was the city's fault because they failed to
maintain that truck. You are due compensation for your pain and
suffering". Bull Sh*t! It as an accident, stuff happens. Opposing
attorneys saying "well if you aren't going to sue, why not sign a
release holding the city harmless?" Same B Sh*t. Everyone wants
something on paper. I told them to just leave me alone. To this
day, once a year I get the same hold harmless release in the mail.
Lets see, that incident took place about 27 years ago. Now, would
you like to talk about my divorce? -grin

Don't blame me. I just work here!
http://www.pbase.com/importer

Click to expand...

--

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pgrupp said:

That being said, I'm pretty sure that Hachette Filipacchi
(publisher of Popular Phogotography) is going to argue that in
fact, their usage of unreleased photos IS covered by the editorial
exclusion. Otherwise, are you suggesting they and all the similar
publications have just been lucky for all these years, and nobody
has bothered to sue them? That seems pretty unlikely to me.

Click to expand...

pgrupp said:

Interesting turn of events!

Although -- my natural suspicion is aroused. Since you've taken it
this far, it might be worth chatting with the photog -- just to see
what his response is. There may be more to the story yet. Or he may
be just uninformed, or he may indeed have lied to the park -- but
it would be worth getting his side of the story before you put this
to bed.

Click to expand...

pgrupp said:

Regards,
Paul
http://www.bangbangphoto.com

pgrupp said:

So I guess we just draw lines in different places. If somebody
misappropriated my kid's image and used it for advertising without
my permission, I would want something done about it. I don't doubt
that others would feel differently, and that's certainly their
right. I guess the difference between us is -- I don't feel
comfortable criticising somebody who is simply exercising their
right to justice. Whether or not any of us chooses to exercise our
rights is our own business, regardless of what others think we
should do.

Importer said:

Without trying to sound corny; turning the other cheek may be
order. I didn't realize that the original post said his calls
weren't being returned. If they are ignoring the problem, obviously
more has to be done. Here is my first experience with our legal
system when I was a college student. I was working a summer job for
a municipal park department. The old city truck I used had the
brakes fail while I was driving it. We ran a stop sign and a kid
broadsided the truck causing us to roll over. Trying to be brief,
nobody was seriously injured. I was knocked out, had a couple of
broken ribs and some imbedded glass. Nothing permanent. Attorneys
came from every where. Some trying to sue, and some trying to get
me to sign a waiver. I wouldn't do either and the more I ignored
them the more vocal they became, almost to the point of harassment.
Attorney speak "It was the city's fault because they failed to
maintain that truck. You are due compensation for your pain and
suffering". Bull Sh*t! It as an accident, stuff happens. Opposing
attorneys saying "well if you aren't going to sue, why not sign a
release holding the city harmless?" Same B Sh*t. Everyone wants
something on paper. I told them to just leave me alone. To this
day, once a year I get the same hold harmless release in the mail.
Lets see, that incident took place about 27 years ago. Now, would
you like to talk about my divorce? -grin

Don't blame me. I just work here!
http://www.pbase.com/importer

Click to expand...

--

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

sonjabean said:

pgrupp said:

That being said, I'm pretty sure that Hachette Filipacchi
(publisher of Popular Phogotography) is going to argue that in
fact, their usage of unreleased photos IS covered by the editorial
exclusion. Otherwise, are you suggesting they and all the similar
publications have just been lucky for all these years, and nobody
has bothered to sue them? That seems pretty unlikely to me.

Click to expand...

Just wanted to point out that a number of the photographers'
responses included statements saying that they had displayed their
work in shows and sold work from those shows. At least one person
(the first guy, I think) said that he had a book published. These
situations are definitely NOT covered by the editorial exclusion.
I think that is what people are responding to--not the publication
of the pictures in Popular Photography.

Click to expand...

Paul Grupp said:

I'm not an expert on the nuances here -- but I would think that the
book would come under the editorial exclusion provisions of the law.

Click to expand...

Paul Grupp said:

On your side note -- I travelled just a few weeks ago, and observed
several travellers taking pictures at LAX. I myself took pictures
of the planes on the runway, as well as landings, in a very
obvious, visible way, and nobody lifted an eyebrow.

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