Sharper results with no sharpening than with auto. Why?

fjp

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I'm still learning about the menu controls available in the D70. Tonight I read, without realizing it before, that you can fine-tune the amount of sharpening the camera can do internally, and I discovered that for every one of the several hundred I have taken and run through Photoshop, I had internal sharpening set to Auto. I was shocked.

So tonight I ran a test. With the SB-800 as lighting, I took two pictures of a lampshade with lots of fine detail, one with Auto-sharpening set and the other with no sharpening set.

Then I took the images into Photoshop and sharpened them both with the same setting: Amount 90, Radius 0.9, and Threshold 1. The one that was not sharpened in the camera came out looking sharper.

Does anyone understand why I would get this results? It looks like I should always be shooting with no internal sharpening, which is what I thought I was doing all along. Although I've been using it for years, I don't understand the theory behind USM to understand the results I got. I understand that in using Auto I was sharpening on top of sharpening.

Oddly, though, I have been very satisfied with the results I have been getting shooting in the Auto setting. But apparently I could have been getting even better results shooting with no internal sharpening at all. I just don't understand why.

--
FJP
 
I'm still learning about the menu controls available in the D70.
Tonight I read, without realizing it before, that you can fine-tune
the amount of sharpening the camera can do internally, and I
discovered that for every one of the several hundred I have taken
and run through Photoshop, I had internal sharpening set to Auto. I
was shocked.

So tonight I ran a test. With the SB-800 as lighting, I took two
pictures of a lampshade with lots of fine detail, one with
Auto-sharpening set and the other with no sharpening set.

Then I took the images into Photoshop and sharpened them both with
the same setting: Amount 90, Radius 0.9, and Threshold 1. The one
that was not sharpened in the camera came out looking sharper.

Does anyone understand why I would get this results? It looks like
I should always be shooting with no internal sharpening, which is
what I thought I was doing all along. Although I've been using it
for years, I don't understand the theory behind USM to understand
the results I got. I understand that in using Auto I was sharpening
on top of sharpening.

Oddly, though, I have been very satisfied with the results I have
been getting shooting in the Auto setting. But apparently I could
have been getting even better results shooting with no internal
sharpening at all. I just don't understand why.

--
FJP
--
FJP
 
I'm intensely interested but do not know. I've had the same experience, asked the same question, and got a wide range of answers.

One school of thought is this: if you're comfortable with your post processing skills, turn in-camera sharpening off, because your computer will always do a better job.

I have mixed emotions. Like you, I'm fairly satisfied with the in-camera sharpening, and it helps me see whether I've got the shot in the first place. On the other hand, I want the best images I can get, so... I face the same conundrum...

Sorry, DZ

--
http://www.pbase.com/deanzat
 
Interesting. I just yesterday had a conversation with my photo lab guy (very experienced and highly skilled with the best and the latest in equipment) on this very subject, and he cautioned me about using in-camera sharpening. He suggested the "Normal" setting. He gave me a brief explanation, I wouldn't be comfortable trying to translate it, but it confirmed what you have observed about your pre-sharpened images. I'll just take his word for it.
I'm still learning about the menu controls available in the D70.
Tonight I read, without realizing it before, that you can fine-tune
the amount of sharpening the camera can do internally, and I
discovered that for every one of the several hundred I have taken
and run through Photoshop, I had internal sharpening set to Auto. I
was shocked.

So tonight I ran a test. With the SB-800 as lighting, I took two
pictures of a lampshade with lots of fine detail, one with
Auto-sharpening set and the other with no sharpening set.

Then I took the images into Photoshop and sharpened them both with
the same setting: Amount 90, Radius 0.9, and Threshold 1. The one
that was not sharpened in the camera came out looking sharper.

Does anyone understand why I would get this results? It looks like
I should always be shooting with no internal sharpening, which is
what I thought I was doing all along. Although I've been using it
for years, I don't understand the theory behind USM to understand
the results I got. I understand that in using Auto I was sharpening
on top of sharpening.

Oddly, though, I have been very satisfied with the results I have
been getting shooting in the Auto setting. But apparently I could
have been getting even better results shooting with no internal
sharpening at all. I just don't understand why.

--
FJP
 
The algorithms performed on a PC are much more powerful than in camera therefore you will see better sharpening using an USM. Many people use low or no sharpening for this very feature. No sharpening also dramitically reduces noise in long exposures. For normal photograph prints in camera sharpening is absolutly fine.

hth

--
D70 Curve tests
http://www.pbase.com/oldskoo1
 
I don't know about this since I disabled the in camera sharpening before I took my first shot with it. My philosophy is that such automatically applied sharpening "eye-candy" often make images look good at a glance, but wieved more carefully, in many cases they make images worse, and once the deed is done, you cant go back!

Additionally the in camera sharpness must be very fast (3 images/second) and is therefore not optimal in quality.

I say disable in camera sharpness! Better too little "sharpness" than too much.
I'm still learning about the menu controls available in the D70.
Tonight I read, without realizing it before, that you can fine-tune
the amount of sharpening the camera can do internally, and I
discovered that for every one of the several hundred I have taken
and run through Photoshop, I had internal sharpening set to Auto. I
was shocked.

So tonight I ran a test. With the SB-800 as lighting, I took two
pictures of a lampshade with lots of fine detail, one with
Auto-sharpening set and the other with no sharpening set.

Then I took the images into Photoshop and sharpened them both with
the same setting: Amount 90, Radius 0.9, and Threshold 1. The one
that was not sharpened in the camera came out looking sharper.

Does anyone understand why I would get this results? It looks like
I should always be shooting with no internal sharpening, which is
what I thought I was doing all along. Although I've been using it
for years, I don't understand the theory behind USM to understand
the results I got. I understand that in using Auto I was sharpening
on top of sharpening.

Oddly, though, I have been very satisfied with the results I have
been getting shooting in the Auto setting. But apparently I could
have been getting even better results shooting with no internal
sharpening at all. I just don't understand why.

--
FJP
--
FJP
 
By letting the camera sharpen then sharpen in PS you oversharpened and introduced more noise. Compare the the two without sharpening the in camera sharpened one. I would like to know how this comparison works. I am currently trying to decide between the D70 and D100, and would like to here what you have to say.
 
The algorithms performed on a PC are much more powerful than in
camera therefore you will see better sharpening using an USM. Many
people use low or no sharpening for this very feature. No
sharpening also dramitically reduces noise in long exposures. For
normal photograph prints in camera sharpening is absolutly fine.
Perfect answer. Thanks. From my own experience and my common workflow (always sharpen in PS), I see no reason to do any sharpening in the camera and will set it permanently off (now that I know how to do it).

--
FJP
 
One school of thought is this: if you're comfortable with your post
processing skills, turn in-camera sharpening off, because your
computer will always do a better job.
That's a good answer.
I have mixed emotions. Like you, I'm fairly satisfied with the
in-camera sharpening, and it helps me see whether I've got the shot
in the first place.
But in-camera sharpening doesn't really contribute to this help, does it? The display at the back of the camera just tells you if you got the composition right. It doesn't have high enough resolution for you to judge the quality of the sharpening, and it doesn't accurately portray the exposure level.
On the other hand, I want the best images I
can get, so... I face the same conundrum...
After reading other responses, it is no longer a conundrum for me: I'm going to turn off in-camera sharpening entirely.

--
FJP
 
Thanks. From my own experience and my common
workflow (always sharpen in PS), I see no reason to do any
sharpening in the camera and will set it permanently off (now that
I know how to do it).

--
FJP
It says, turn in-camera sharpening off if sharpening during post-processing is planned. And, I would add, Nikon Capture does somewhat better job of sharpening such out-of-camera pics than PS. Maybe simply because default settings of sharpening params in NC are already well suited for D70 images, whereas in PS you've got to experimentally find them.

Alex
 
I don't know about this since I disabled the in camera sharpening
before I took my first shot with it.
Smart move. I wish I knew about doing this before I took it out into the field.
My philosophy is that such
automatically applied sharpening "eye-candy" often make images look
good at a glance, but wieved more carefully, in many cases they
make images worse, and once the deed is done, you cant go back!
Live and learn. Well, that Auto sharpening wasn't too bad. It obviously just wasn't optimal. I could have gotten even better shots.
Additionally the in camera sharpness must be very fast (3
images/second) and is therefore not optimal in quality.
I say disable in camera sharpness! Better too little "sharpness"
than too much.
Exactly. My little experiment showed that the completely unsharpened image wound up sharper with the exact same amount of USM as the Auto-sharpened image.

--
FJP
 
By letting the camera sharpen then sharpen in PS you oversharpened
and introduced more noise. Compare the the two without sharpening
the in camera sharpened one. I would like to know how this
comparison works. I am currently trying to decide between the D70
and D100, and would like to here what you have to say.
I'm at work and so can't do that right now. I'll take a look tonight.

--
FJP
 
fjp,
Does anyone understand why I would get this results? It looks like
I should always be shooting with no internal sharpening, which is
what I thought I was doing all along. Although I've been using it
for years, I don't understand the theory behind USM to understand
the results I got. I understand that in using Auto I was sharpening
on top of sharpening.
You just discovered something that has been known to us intermediate and pro digital shooters for a long time.

It is always better to sharpen in post than in camera.

The reasons have to do with several factors, first of all if you read the section in the manual on how AUTO sharpening works you'll realize that it really works like a magic dial across the available settings, the camera decides based on the orientation and amount of detail which setting to apply, as you know that range:

auto, -2,-1,0,1,2 , none

so obviously in auto mode the camera has 6 possible options, (-2 to +2, none) but in my experience Nikon's algorithm for auto (it seems to work the same way on the coolpix cameras) almost never tends to choose the "none" option. In fact it more likely will choose a moderate to high sharpening setting (> 0) when this occurs first of all the camera has to think a bit harder to process the image (which means it might add a tiny bit to processing time when shooting continuous shot bursts) secondly the sharpening algorithms used in the camera are only so and so compared to the advanced options afforded by using USM in your favorite image editor. In those programs you can control the intensity, radius and threshhold of the applied sharpening. You can even mask off portions of the image for sharpening or just sharpen the edges and leave flat expanses of color alone. This is precisely how the pro's do it in post processing to produce the jaw dropping images you occasionally see posted. So all this capability is obviated by using auto in the camera, well you can still do it but now your image data has already been changed by the setting (unless you shoot RAW that is!) A third factor is the intelligence of the algorithm in auto mode, it's not very smart..it will blindly apply a "high" sharpening to a sun set shot with deep blues in the sky (which as you know will bring noise in the sky alive) it will similarly make bad decisions under indoor flash conditions and seems oblivious to how the noise generated by sharpening is exacerbated by highier ISO settings. This is what explains the irratic noise behavior that some people mention, "oh this shot came out noisy...I wonder why?"...quit shooting in auto mode and you essentially eliminate that inconsistency. To continue with ISO, sharpening will bring out the beast in high ISO images, if you plan on shooting high ISO never sharpen your images in camera, you are already going to suffer from the increased noise due to the amplification required for the highier ISO level, no reason to make it even worse by applying a rough sharpening pass in camera to further degrade the image. I think the most important factor is processing power and fidelity, in photoshop you can work on high bit data (16 bit space) and in a high gamut (Adobe RGB should be your prefered color space in the body if post processing is going to be part of the image work flow!) while shooting RAW, doing USM on such an image allows you to use the horsepower of your pc and the more accurate sharpening algorithms of photoshop to optimize your image. The camera has to apply it's sharpening quickly to the image in camera, so it is very rough at best...USM in photoshop maximizes detail retention while minimizing generated noise, and in fact with masking restricts the sharpening only to the areas you wish as previously mentioned. Remember also that if you shoot jpeg, your settings are final ! whatever sharpening the camera does to the image is yours to keep..post processing can only work from what the jpeg provides (where as in NEF, the sharpening chosen in camera is only a "recommendation" associated with the image data and can be changed without changing that data) so if you plan on post processing jpeg images, it's best to shoot them as no sharpening otherwise you will have to undo the damage caused by using auto or another fixed setting, all of which will significantly increase the noise in the image you will be post processing.

For the best possible image, there is no better option then to shoot with sharpening off and then USM as a post process, this goes for RAW or JPEG.

I always shoot with sharpening off in camera, even with a basic USM pass on the pc the results in photoshop out class the limited (but welcome) options available in camera, it gets better when the advanced methods (masking,edge restrictions..etc.) are used. Luckily the noise performance and quality of the D70 is outstanding to start, with an extremely tight grained monochromatic structure up to it's highiest ISO with minimal chromatic variance. This makes it particulary amenable to application of USM especially when used in conjunction with smart de noise tools. (if you want to completely obliterate it for high ISO long exposures say..)
Oddly, though, I have been very satisfied with the results I have
been getting shooting in the Auto setting. But apparently I could
have been getting even better results shooting with no internal
sharpening at all. I just don't understand why.
Hopefully you do now ;)

Regards,

--

 
Hi

That thread is fascinating and I am going to set my D70 sharpening to off. What about the other in camera settings (tone, saturation etc), would I be better with them off as well? I use Nikon View 6 to view and edit as it is nice and easy!!

--
Regards.
Fred (Essex, UK).

Proud to say the Nikon D70 is moire choice.

http://pig2.instantlogic.com/Gallery.ilx
http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/mf080543/
By letting the camera sharpen then sharpen in PS you oversharpened
and introduced more noise. Compare the the two without sharpening
the in camera sharpened one. I would like to know how this
comparison works. I am currently trying to decide between the D70
and D100, and would like to here what you have to say.
I'm at work and so can't do that right now. I'll take a look tonight.

--
FJP
 
I wanted to point out, that the options for sharpening (or not at all) in the top digital SLR's are precisely why I object strongly to definitive claims being made of one body or manufacturer having the "best" image quality. When shooting with no sharpening, you'll note the images are completely** noise free. From this base one is free to optimize the image further in post using the most advanced algorithms and powerful computers. Both the D70 and the 300D have options for low / no sharpening in the camera ..and it's easy to create comparisons between the two bodies where one clearly beats the other by simply varying the in camera sharpening level chosen! That's how close they are in "absolute" image quality, so all this talk of "my body is better than yours because it has a lower noise free ISO value" is puff. There are some areas where differences can be found such as chrominance noise differences at highier ISO values, chrominance noise is more difficult to remove/reduce than luminance noise but these will show up only in extreme circumstances (such as very long exposures and high ISO) between the best available bodies, unless you make your bread at that level there is no reason to fret the differences (and even then post processing options can nullify most any body advantages). Bottom line IMO, If you know what you are doing you can get identical image quality from the top 5 digital SLR's, as MR observed over at luminous landscape...it's time for shooters to concentrate on the breadth of features and versatility a camera affords them as image quality is a wash for the top bodies when handled by experienced digital shooters.

Regards,

--

 
Really depends if you want to post process. Sharpening on normal or even high gives fine results out of camera. I'd leave saturation on normal try lowering AWB or use cloudy for bolder colours. And as far as tones go, normal is good and even better with +0.3ev. You may even want to look into custom curves, theres some really good ones out there.

hth

--
D70 Curve tests
http://www.pbase.com/oldskoo1
 

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