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critique, please

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kevin atkinson said:
http://www.kdaphotos.com , but you know Olig, a critiquer and a
photographer are two different skills. It won't do to try and tie
them together. kevin
Click to expand...
Joe Peoples writes:

Hi, Kevin. I wonder if the advice in the critiques is unconsciously directed back at the persons giving them. Do the folks so willing for the photographer to make changes actually know that portraiture is really meta messages pertaining to the person(s) being photographed? The photographer who posted the links to the other sites may like what he sees, but doesn't understand what's involved are analogy, metaphor, allegory, and the use of photographic language, with the intent to do something "different". Oleg exhibits a competant level of technical expertise, but the "meta message" of the portrait is not obvious, and certainly wasn't fully executed, if even explored. There's nothing wrong with "flat lighting", which actually enshances the reflective qualities of the outfit. I like the metalic-looking background and wouldn't mind more strategically-placed "hot spots", as are on the hand. I corrected the color, as best I could. The only neutrals in the shot are the deep shadows, and the midtones/skintone had to be a judgement call. A closer crop seems to help, I think. I'm sure some of the severity of criticism stems from Oleg's comments about Chuck a few weeks ago, but that shouldn't stop everyone from taking a taste of their own medicine and raising their levels of competance in portraiture.

 
Joe, I choose the individuals I critique carefully now. It ain't worth wasting my time on folks who don't want help. I think the BG is OK. It was the blotches that were my nit. I hadn't thought of the flat lighting as a positive design choice, but now that you've pointed it out...OK. Her dress somehow suggests regality to me. Maybe I'm wrong. Her pose seems relaxed, western, out of place with her costume. I'm sure you've seen Penn's portraits. The way they carried themselves in the portraits matched their clothes (evan though some were nearly nude) Your correction of the color, although subtle, contains more red and less yellow than the original and closer to what I'd expect. I probably shouldn't even qualify to critique. I haven't taken a picture in a week or so. :> ) Drawing class is taking up all my time. They say anyone can learn to draw and paint, what freedom, I can go from brain to imagery without seting up the shot. Kevin
 
in national costume... Your description is the reason folks are wanting "something" that depicts the description you provided. You sort of "lead" them into that comment simply by your description.

Another way of putting it is like this... Outback Restaurant using the image of their fillet but fail to describe the savor and sizzle of their magnificently prepared aged beef... The description leads in a direction that the image falls short of...

Try this idea... Use a strong light from overhead (boom)...maybe just a bit forward of the plane created by her face...she is sitting in a position reminiscent of prayer or meditation...you fire up the fog machine and roll and low mist around where she sits.

OR.. do an enviromental with a backdrop of the Pacific OR take her to the local pagoda.. OR.. pose her lighting incense in a brass ornament.. OR.. (I can keep coming up with others, but..).

I want to see your subject relate to the moment... You create the moment in their mind so that it shines...somber, reflective, happy, introspective... Whatever that adds to your goal for the finished product. Work on getting things to match.. show cohesiveness (lighting, pose, intent, etc). Post up some more and lets see where you can take them. vf
Oleg Kikin said:
I don't understand why so many people wish to put her in some
mongolian-related environment - it's just a portrait, not a genre
photo.
Click to expand...
When you're green you grow..When you're ripe you rot!
 
Vernon Foster said:
in national costume... Your description is the reason folks are
wanting "something" that depicts the description you provided. You
sort of "lead" them into that comment simply by your description.
Another way of putting it is like this... Outback Restaurant using
the image of their fillet but fail to describe the savor and sizzle
of their magnificently prepared aged beef... The description leads
in a direction that the image falls short of...
Try this idea... Use a strong light from overhead (boom)...maybe
just a bit forward of the plane created by her face...she is
sitting in a position reminiscent of prayer or meditation...you
fire up the fog machine and roll and low mist around where she sits.
OR.. do an enviromental with a backdrop of the Pacific OR take her
to the local pagoda.. OR.. pose her lighting incense in a brass
ornament.. OR.. (I can keep coming up with others, but..).
I want to see your subject relate to the moment... You create the
moment in their mind so that it shines...somber, reflective, happy,
introspective... Whatever that adds to your goal for the finished
product. Work on getting things to match.. show cohesiveness
(lighting, pose, intent, etc). Post up some more and lets see where
you can take them. vf
Click to expand...
Joe Peoples writes:

No problem playing the role of art director, if you are paying for a photographer's time, then you can dictate exactly what you'd like to see. I submit that the advice you're giving is something you'd like to try or do more for your own photos. After responding to Ken's post, I realized I am guilty of the same thing, as I told Juli, in another post where she was pining for Chuck to come back, that she should "go take pictures". I'm tired of just shooting assignments for other people and would love to get back to shooting portraits for myself. While I think it's noble of you to offer suggestions, Oleg's journey must be his own, and advice given should be generative and not remedial, or it does him no good in the end.
 
I should be at home. Looking at Oleg's site, it's a feel that I honestly get for him (or rather where he's wanting to go). I admit to getting "flowery" or too much of something (really pisses my wife! LOL). Personally, I really though the Outback thing was kinda fun... :) Later, vf
Joe Peoples said:
Vernon Foster said:
in national costume... Your description is the reason folks are
wanting "something" that depicts the description you provided. You
sort of "lead" them into that comment simply by your description.
Another way of putting it is like this... Outback Restaurant using
the image of their fillet but fail to describe the savor and sizzle
of their magnificently prepared aged beef... The description leads
in a direction that the image falls short of...
Try this idea... Use a strong light from overhead (boom)...maybe
just a bit forward of the plane created by her face...she is
sitting in a position reminiscent of prayer or meditation...you
fire up the fog machine and roll and low mist around where she sits.
OR.. do an enviromental with a backdrop of the Pacific OR take her
to the local pagoda.. OR.. pose her lighting incense in a brass
ornament.. OR.. (I can keep coming up with others, but..).
I want to see your subject relate to the moment... You create the
moment in their mind so that it shines...somber, reflective, happy,
introspective... Whatever that adds to your goal for the finished
product. Work on getting things to match.. show cohesiveness
(lighting, pose, intent, etc). Post up some more and lets see where
you can take them. vf
Click to expand...
Joe Peoples writes:

No problem playing the role of art director, if you are paying for
a photographer's time, then you can dictate exactly what you'd like
to see. I submit that the advice you're giving is something you'd
like to try or do more for your own photos. After responding to
Ken's post, I realized I am guilty of the same thing, as I told
Juli, in another post where she was pining for Chuck to come back,
that she should "go take pictures". I'm tired of just shooting
assignments for other people and would love to get back to shooting
portraits for myself. While I think it's noble of you to offer
suggestions, Oleg's journey must be his own, and advice given
should be generative and not remedial, or it does him no good in
the end.
Click to expand...
--
When you're green you grow..When you're ripe you rot!
 
Does it mean that you cannot follow your own advices?

I consider advices from people who shoot better than me seriously, but when somebody criticizes harshly and i look at their photographs, and i'm not impressed, i don't take such critique seriously. There's nothing wrong with criticizing someone who is a better artist - just don't be surprised when people don't buy your advices. I do it myself, actually, and sometimes even good photographers (or other artists) produce horrible artworks and make stupid mistakes, and they need to hear something sour :)

good luck, kevin
kevin atkinson said:
http://www.kdaphotos.com , but you know Olig, a critiquer and a
photographer are two different skills. It won't do to try and tie
them together. kevin
Click to expand...
 
Oleg K said:
I consider advices from people who shoot better than me seriously,
but when somebody criticizes harshly and i look at their
photographs, and i'm not impressed, i don't take such critique
seriously. There's nothing wrong with criticizing someone who is a
better artist - just don't be surprised when people don't buy your
advices. I do it myself, actually, and sometimes even good
photographers (or other artists) produce horrible artworks and make
stupid mistakes, and they need to hear something sour :)

good luck, kevin
kevin atkinson said:
http://www.kdaphotos.com , but you know Olig, a critiquer and a
photographer are two different skills. It won't do to try and tie
them together. kevin
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Joe Peoples writes:

Many photo enthusiasts have a good knowledge about lighting, composition, and basic photographic concepts They often cannot walk their talk, because they never committed to the self-exploration that is required to becoming adept at photographic language. This is not to say that their criticism isn't valid. Problems arise when critique comes in the form of subjective advice (in essence, "Here's what I would do...") and not objectively structured. The "harsh criticism" undoubtedly stems from your puzzling treatment of Chuck, who is the resident hero among the hobbyists on this forum.

Oleg, you are not interviewing for a mentor here, nor are you able to pick and choose who says what about your work. You need to read everything written and keep what works for you, while discarding the rest. If a response doesn't resolve your issue completely, it's your responsibility to ask more questions until you're satisfied or you've hit a dead end. Making your own trail into the forest isn't easy. What most do is follow someone else's path...and miss out on the adventure. Leave your ego at the door and keep plugging away.
 
pgrupp said:
On another level, I like to see portraitrure that puts people in
some context. She looks mongolian -- she's wearing the outfit, but
the setting could just as easily be in London, or Des Moines Iowa,
or wherever.

Now I know this forum encourages that bland look -- everybody seems
to be going out and buying a set of Alien Bees lights and a roll of
seamless, and then they plop their subject down in front of this
nondescript background and have at it. A huge percentage of the
pictures here are done that way, and frankly, I hate it.

So my advice would be to put her in context -- let's see a bit of
her home, perhaps.

There are some good practioners of the portrait who often
incorporate environmental elements -- Bob Krist comes to mind. You
can see some of his work here:

http://www.bobkrist.com/index2.html

Another guy whose work is a little more edgy is Eric Myer:

http://www.ericmyer.com/green/editorial.htm

Andrew Eccles is as capable of putting somebody in front of
seamless as the next guy, but he also uses settings creatively:

http://www.andreweccles.com/test/port_html/port01.html

A young and very edgy photographer who often uses settings
creatively is Norman Jean Roy:

http://www.art-dept.com/artists/roy/

Finally, one of the all-time greats would surely have to be Eddie
Adams:

http://www.pbs.org/speaktruthtopower/hr_nan.htm#

I think a little environmental context would make the difference
between a competent picture, and a great one.

Regards,
Paul
http://www.pbase.com/pgrupp
Oleg Kikin said:
A mongolian girl in national costume. Hope you like it.



---------------
http://s87486672.onlinehome.us
Click to expand...
--
Click to expand...
 
Oleg,

on these forums, when you ask for a critique, you should accept it and move on.

Don't fall back on attacking the critiquers about the level of their work. A lot of people can offer a legit opinoin, even if they can't do better than you. Most movie/food critics can't make a better movie or cook a better meal, but their opinions are still valid.

Some people will offer good advice, some will talk about fog macines and Outback Steakhouse (?) and others will offer links to sites showing location environmental portraits when you are asking about studio work on a plain backgound...for work similar to your shot, look for William Coupon, Marc Hauser, Irving Penn and some of Avedon's work, among others.

As far as my 2 cents, I like the background, I sort of like the lighting, I don't care for the pose, I don't like the chair, and I think the camera angle is too high.

Kel 2K
 
Joe, my ego has nothing to do with what i wrote. I realize i'm a bad photographer, and I listen to what people say. I don't like though when people like Chuck start thinking that they know it all, and then fail to show the application of their knowledge. That was so obvious (to me) that Chuck was crossing the line - you cannot teach what you have no idea about. Art isn't math - art is all about application, doing, creating, inventing. What i try to say is - you can't teach art without showing what you achieved yourself.

I admit, teaching is different from critique, though - there are professional art criticizers who can't don't know how to paint, photograph, etc. Those people have "the eye" but not the skills. Still, i respect opinion of those who create art and do it better than i do.
Member said:
Joe Peoples writes:

Many photo enthusiasts have a good knowledge about lighting,
composition, and basic photographic concepts They often cannot walk
their talk, because they never committed to the self-exploration
that is required to becoming adept at photographic language. This
is not to say that their criticism isn't valid. Problems arise when
critique comes in the form of subjective advice (in essence,
"Here's what I would do...") and not objectively structured. The
"harsh criticism" undoubtedly stems from your puzzling treatment of
Chuck, who is the resident hero among the hobbyists on this forum.

Oleg, you are not interviewing for a mentor here, nor are you able
to pick and choose who says what about your work. You need to read
everything written and keep what works for you, while discarding
the rest. If a response doesn't resolve your issue completely, it's
your responsibility to ask more questions until you're satisfied or
you've hit a dead end. Making your own trail into the forest isn't
easy. What most do is follow someone else's path...and miss out on
the adventure. Leave your ego at the door and keep plugging away.
Click to expand...
 
Horse feathers! I may possibly be looking a more that face value with regards to Oleg, and if that's a rules violation, I do so very much a p o loooo giiiiizzzzzzze. :)
Why don't we get Phil to establish some form of Robert's Rules for this forum?

Taking this all in, Oleg gets a bit pizzz'd and shoots his mouth off. I don't agree with it nor do I think it truly justified...But, I understand it. Kevin offered advise/critical comment..Oleg looked at his web site and was a bit taken back... then make the faux pas of "firin' off a salvo or 2"! LOL Well, I looked too, but I remain moot on that one.

Sorry..my opinion as well as that of basic management tenents... It's hard to follow a leader that can't do it him (or her) self. Yea, I know, John Wooden (probably) couldn't sink a free through.... But remember, he was a COACH! NOT A PLAYER! Would you buy into ole Monte if he hadn't made more than a few bucks in the biznez? Why do people buy certain books or subscribe to certain sites (like Zuga)? It isn't cause they talk a good game, but never played (or rather played it damn good) themselves.
MikeDitz said:
But this is an open forum...anyone can say anything (within the rules).Kel Tookay
wrote:

Some people will offer good advice, some will talk about fog
macines and Outback Steakhouse (?) and others will offer links to
sites showing location environmental portraits when you are asking
about studio work on a plain backgound...for work similar to your
shot, look for William Coupon, Marc Hauser, Irving Penn and some of
Avedon's work, among others.

As far as my 2 cents, I like the background, I sort of like the
lighting, I don't care for the pose, I don't like the chair, and I
think the camera angle is too high.

Kel 2K
Click to expand...
 
I love the costume and the model is quite pretty. I think the things I would have changed in the picture are:
-position of the left arm...too high looks uncomfortable
-some sort of lighting on her hair to separate from the background.
-move her a little farther from background (I do like the background).
-as mentioned get her to sit a little straighter but....
with all of this it is still a very nice portrait...Ray
 
I have to read your posts twice to understand them. You're making me think too much.
Member said:
Hi, Kevin. I wonder if the advice in the critiques is unconsciously
directed back at the persons giving them.
Click to expand...
Maybe, I was probably guilty of applying the "rules??" Without first exploring Olig's story.
Member said:
Do the folks so willing
for the photographer to make changes actually know that portraiture
is really meta messages pertaining to the person(s) being
photographed?
Click to expand...
JP, I think you're giving people too much credit. I'd wager here they'd be happy with a reasonable likeness(snapshot). Taking the understanding beyound that may be more than they've bargained for.
Member said:
The photographer who posted the links to the other
sites may like what he sees, but doesn't understand what's involved
are analogy, metaphor, allegory, and the use of photographic
language, with the intent to do something "different".
Click to expand...
Member said:
Oleg
exhibits a competant level of technical expertise, but the "meta
message" of the portrait is not obvious, and certainly wasn't fully
executed, if even explored.
Click to expand...
I hope Oleg gets this. I critiqed on the most base, superficial level. This was my mistake. I've fallen into habit of offering advice at the level of where people exist on this forum. I should have probed for him to go off and explore or at least ask what the story was.
Member said:
I'm sure some
of the severity of criticism stems from Oleg's comments about Chuck
a few weeks ago, but that shouldn't stop everyone from taking a
taste of their own medicine and raising their levels of competance
in portraiture.
Click to expand...
I tried to stay out of this other than to give credit where due. I have nothing against formulaic lighting as long as it's not touted to be the end of all image making. It's a tool, one of many in and artist's bag to convey an idea.

Thanks for making me think. kevin
 
Why do you people think every photograph should have a story? Look at Mona Lisa - there's ZERO story in there. A woman sitting and smiling. Still, it's one of the most famous portraits ever. Honestly, I wasn't trying to create a story, it was a matter of creating a good looking image - nothing else.

Oleg
kevin atkinson said:
kevin atkinson said:
Hi, Kevin. I wonder if the advice in the critiques is unconsciously
directed back at the persons giving them.
Click to expand...
Maybe, I was probably guilty of applying the "rules??" Without
first exploring Olig's story.
kevin atkinson said:
Do the folks so willing
for the photographer to make changes actually know that portraiture
is really meta messages pertaining to the person(s) being
photographed?
Click to expand...
JP, I think you're giving people too much credit. I'd wager here
they'd be happy with a reasonable likeness(snapshot). Taking the
understanding beyound that may be more than they've bargained for.
kevin atkinson said:
The photographer who posted the links to the other
sites may like what he sees, but doesn't understand what's involved
are analogy, metaphor, allegory, and the use of photographic
language, with the intent to do something "different".
Click to expand...
kevin atkinson said:
Oleg
exhibits a competant level of technical expertise, but the "meta
message" of the portrait is not obvious, and certainly wasn't fully
executed, if even explored.
Click to expand...
I hope Oleg gets this. I critiqed on the most base, superficial
level. This was my mistake. I've fallen into habit of offering
advice at the level of where people exist on this forum. I should
have probed for him to go off and explore or at least ask what the
story was.
kevin atkinson said:
I'm sure some
of the severity of criticism stems from Oleg's comments about Chuck
a few weeks ago, but that shouldn't stop everyone from taking a
taste of their own medicine and raising their levels of competance
in portraiture.
Click to expand...
I tried to stay out of this other than to give credit where due. I
have nothing against formulaic lighting as long as it's not touted
to be the end of all image making. It's a tool, one of many in and
artist's bag to convey an idea.

Thanks for making me think. kevin
Click to expand...
 
I'm of the opinion that a "portrait" should say "something". A portrait photographer should be above dime store photography or school packages. Personally, I believe it is an important calling...if you choose to take it seriously..as an art form, that is.

I'm reading a book that was written around a Life mag. photo. The author uses the following quote:

All photographs ae abandonings. Once there was a moment, the click of a shutter, and now it's gone, a framed ghost, abandoned by time and failing memory. This is the sentiment at the heart of photography's mechanical mystery. Credited to Henry Allen, Cultural Critic The Washington Post

Makes you kinda think a bit as to why you've spent the (big) bucks to create images. So why tell a story? I suppose because we should consider it worthy of the effort... yeah, I suppose I believe that elements should match so it makes sense. That is, unless you've got more money than sense.. We are all looking for some sort of payback for our investments in both time and money, at least I am.

Nothing so off with our Mongolian lady that can't be fixed with a little of this and a little of that... the latter has already been posted. As before, (imo), this all started with a (sort of) Title... "Mongolian lady in native costume." Maybe it should've been "Check the Chick" LOL vf
Oleg K said:
Oleg
kevin atkinson said:
Oleg K said:
Hi, Kevin. I wonder if the advice in the critiques is unconsciously
directed back at the persons giving them.
Click to expand...
Maybe, I was probably guilty of applying the "rules??" Without
first exploring Olig's story.
Oleg K said:
Do the folks so willing
for the photographer to make changes actually know that portraiture
is really meta messages pertaining to the person(s) being
photographed?
Click to expand...
JP, I think you're giving people too much credit. I'd wager here
they'd be happy with a reasonable likeness(snapshot). Taking the
understanding beyound that may be more than they've bargained for.
Oleg K said:
The photographer who posted the links to the other
sites may like what he sees, but doesn't understand what's involved
are analogy, metaphor, allegory, and the use of photographic
language, with the intent to do something "different".
Click to expand...
Oleg K said:
Oleg
exhibits a competant level of technical expertise, but the "meta
message" of the portrait is not obvious, and certainly wasn't fully
executed, if even explored.
Click to expand...
I hope Oleg gets this. I critiqed on the most base, superficial
level. This was my mistake. I've fallen into habit of offering
advice at the level of where people exist on this forum. I should
have probed for him to go off and explore or at least ask what the
story was.
Oleg K said:
I'm sure some
of the severity of criticism stems from Oleg's comments about Chuck
a few weeks ago, but that shouldn't stop everyone from taking a
taste of their own medicine and raising their levels of competance
in portraiture.
Click to expand...
I tried to stay out of this other than to give credit where due. I
have nothing against formulaic lighting as long as it's not touted
to be the end of all image making. It's a tool, one of many in and
artist's bag to convey an idea.

Thanks for making me think. kevin
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
When you're green you grow..When you're ripe you rot!
 
Banana Chips™ said:
...what is wrong with the "critics" here?
Click to expand...
it's ok, i guess i p_issed off seveal people before with my comments
Banana Chips™ said:
the portrait's great! the warm lighting works. i would only
suggest a couple of things: apply burning on the blotches on the
background and the fingers on the left hand of the subject so they
won't stand out.
Click to expand...
yeah, i know, i will fix it, i dodged it by mistake

---------------
http://s87486672.onlinehome.us/
 
beautiful portrait, hands down: I love the colors, the expression, the composition: I just wish I could master the color like you do :)
besides, that blue the gold and the brown background is a magic touch.
well done
 
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