717 external flash questions...

rebbi · Mar 19, 2004

Hi,

I've read through some of the other STF threads on the 717 and external flashes, and have learned a lot. I went today to my local camera shop and snooped around. Here's what I found:

They have the less expensive of the two Promaster DX flashes for $89, and they want $69 for the Sony module for that flash... so we're looking at $160, plus tax, for that outfit.

They have the Sunpak 383 for $99.

While I know that I can get the Sunpak cheaper on the web, I'd buy local, I think, because if I'm not happy or not using it as much as I thought I would, I can return it for 14 days. Plus, it's nice to patronize local merchants sometimes.

At those prices, and in general, what would you folks recommend? Is it worth it to get TTL (or as close as the 717 gets to TTL) with the Promaster setup? Or is the Sunpak setup (which I assume means setting a specific aperture and guessing distance) easy enough to use that it doesn't get in the way of picture taking? And are the Sony flashes worth investigating at all?

Thanks,

Steve

Mike Fitzgerald · Mar 19, 2004

Hi Steve --

Partly depends where you're likely to be heading with equipment in the near/medium future. If there's an F828 on your horizon, the word is that the current Promaster Sony module may not work with it. I don't know the situation with the V1 either. If true, this would be because of a minor firmware change by Sony that's backward compatible with its own flashes but just happens to trip up Promaster's code. (This occurred with Metz modules in the transition from F707 to F717, while Promaster was lucky enough to remain unaffected.)

The good news is that using the Sunpak, or equivalent, is more predictable than you think. You don't have to guess distance at all -- that's what the automatic function of this class of flash is all about. You only have to set matching ISO and aperture on the flash and camera. Provided you stay within the working range of the flash at the aperture in question, it will adjust its own output as the subject range and reflectivity change.

In this regard (exposure determination) there's not one whit of difference between the operation of the Sunpak and the Promaster. The ONLY advantage of the latter is that if you decide you really need to change camera aperture during the shooting session -- for reasons of depth of field or to stretch your range -- then you have to change it on the flash as well. Not a biggie: in most situations, one thoughtfully selected aperture will do throughout your shooting session. OTOH if you need to modify exposure for a difficult subject by tweaking the flash output, you can probably do this more quickly and flexibly with the Sunpak. With the Promaster you have to adjust flash output from the camera via a menu setting, and it's a rather coarse adjustment.

Here's some info on what I call the TTL myth ...
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=4454203

... and a full run-down on how to use a flash of the 383's class (don't worry, it's much quicker to do than to describe!):
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=6243175

Sony flashes? Forget the HVL-F1000. The HVL-F32x is known to be much more accurate, but has the disadvantage of not swivelling. It's TTL capability is wasted on the F717 (you can only use it in Auto B mode which employs its own sensor in the same manner as the Sunpak and Promaster), and it's been criticised for having a longish recycle time. Only consider it if you're likely to be moving to a V1, F828 or beyond in the near/medium future.

Bottom line: the Sunpak is much better value, more versatile, and you'll learn a lot more about flash photography using it.

Mike

rebbi said:
Hi,

I've read through some of the other STF threads on the 717 and
external flashes, and have learned a lot. I went today to my local
camera shop and snooped around. Here's what I found:

They have the less expensive of the two Promaster DX flashes for
$89, and they want $69 for the Sony module for that flash... so
we're looking at $160, plus tax, for that outfit.

They have the Sunpak 383 for $99.

While I know that I can get the Sunpak cheaper on the web, I'd buy
local, I think, because if I'm not happy or not using it as much as
I thought I would, I can return it for 14 days. Plus, it's nice to
patronize local merchants sometimes.

At those prices, and in general, what would you folks recommend? Is
it worth it to get TTL (or as close as the 717 gets to TTL) with
the Promaster setup? Or is the Sunpak setup (which I assume means
setting a specific aperture and guessing distance) easy enough to
use that it doesn't get in the way of picture taking? And are the
Sony flashes worth investigating at all?

Thanks,

Steve

Shay Stephens · Mar 19, 2004

Sunpak all the way. You will learn and get good results at the same time you save some cash.

Mike Fitzgerald said:
Partly depends where you're likely to be heading with equipment in
the near/medium future. If there's an F828 on your horizon, the
word is that the current Promaster Sony module may not work with
it. I don't know the situation with the V1 either. If true, this
would be because of a minor firmware change by Sony that's backward
compatible with its own flashes but just happens to trip up
Promaster's code. (This occurred with Metz modules in the
transition from F707 to F717, while Promaster was lucky enough to
remain unaffected.)

The good news is that using the Sunpak, or equivalent, is more
predictable than you think. You don't have to guess distance at all
-- that's what the automatic function of this class of flash is all
about. You only have to set matching ISO and aperture on the flash
and camera. Provided you stay within the working range of the flash
at the aperture in question, it will adjust its own output as the
subject range and reflectivity change.

In this regard (exposure determination) there's not one whit of
difference between the operation of the Sunpak and the Promaster.
The ONLY advantage of the latter is that if you decide you really
need to change camera aperture during the shooting session -- for
reasons of depth of field or to stretch your range -- then you have
to change it on the flash as well. Not a biggie: in most
situations, one thoughtfully selected aperture will do throughout
your shooting session. OTOH if you need to modify exposure for a
difficult subject by tweaking the flash output, you can probably do
this more quickly and flexibly with the Sunpak. With the Promaster
you have to adjust flash output from the camera via a menu setting,
and it's a rather coarse adjustment.

Here's some info on what I call the TTL myth ...
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=4454203
... and a full run-down on how to use a flash of the 383's class
(don't worry, it's much quicker to do than to describe!):
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=6243175

Sony flashes? Forget the HVL-F1000. The HVL-F32x is known to be
much more accurate, but has the disadvantage of not swivelling.
It's TTL capability is wasted on the F717 (you can only use it in
Auto B mode which employs its own sensor in the same manner as the
Sunpak and Promaster), and it's been criticised for having a
longish recycle time. Only consider it if you're likely to be
moving to a V1, F828 or beyond in the near/medium future.

Bottom line: the Sunpak is much better value, more versatile, and
you'll learn a lot more about flash photography using it.

Mike

rebbi said:

Hi,

I've read through some of the other STF threads on the 717 and
external flashes, and have learned a lot. I went today to my local
camera shop and snooped around. Here's what I found:

They have the less expensive of the two Promaster DX flashes for
$89, and they want $69 for the Sony module for that flash... so
we're looking at $160, plus tax, for that outfit.

They have the Sunpak 383 for $99.

While I know that I can get the Sunpak cheaper on the web, I'd buy
local, I think, because if I'm not happy or not using it as much as
I thought I would, I can return it for 14 days. Plus, it's nice to
patronize local merchants sometimes.

At those prices, and in general, what would you folks recommend? Is
it worth it to get TTL (or as close as the 717 gets to TTL) with
the Promaster setup? Or is the Sunpak setup (which I assume means
setting a specific aperture and guessing distance) easy enough to
use that it doesn't get in the way of picture taking? And are the
Sony flashes worth investigating at all?

Thanks,

Steve

Click to expand...

--
Portfolio: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp

Mike Fitzgerald · Mar 19, 2004

Mike Fitzgerald said:
In this regard (exposure determination) there's not one whit of
difference between the operation of the Sunpak and the Promaster.
The ONLY advantage of the latter is that if you decide you really
need to change camera aperture during the shooting session -- for
reasons of depth of field or to stretch your range -- then you have
to change it on the flash as well. ...

What I meant to say in the last couple of lines was:

" then you DON'T have to change it on the flash (Promaster) as well."

... but you probably worked that out anyway ;-)

Mike

rebbi · Mar 19, 2004

Shay and Mike --

Thanks so much for the detailed and very helpful advice. This is what makes STF so great!

Steve

cspringer · Mar 19, 2004

isn't the sunpak recycle time a lot slower?

Mike Fitzgerald said:
Mike Fitzgerald said:

In this regard (exposure determination) there's not one whit of
difference between the operation of the Sunpak and the Promaster.
The ONLY advantage of the latter is that if you decide you really
need to change camera aperture during the shooting session -- for
reasons of depth of field or to stretch your range -- then you have
to change it on the flash as well. ...

Click to expand...

What I meant to say in the last couple of lines was:

" then you DON'T have to change it on the flash (Promaster) as well."

... but you probably worked that out anyway ;-)

Mike

Mike Fitzgerald · Mar 19, 2004

(assuming we're both talking about the Sunpak 383 Super), though I don't own either the Sunpak or the Promaster.

The Sony HVL-F32X has indeed copped a fair bit of criticism for its sloth but, again, I can't comment from personal experience. Any shoe-mounted flash takes a considerable time to recycle -- usually longer than you'd like it to -- if it's fully discharged. One of the arguments in favour of buying a physically larger flash is that the major manufacturers will exploit the larger battery capacity (and reduced internal resistance) that typically goes along with overall size, and employ beefier inverters that lead to shorter recycle times.

Obviously shooting at small apertures and/or large subject distances will increase the depth of discharge and, hence, recycle time, as will bounce flash.

cspringer said:
Mike Fitzgerald said:

Mike Fitzgerald said:

In this regard (exposure determination) there's not one whit of
difference between the operation of the Sunpak and the Promaster.
The ONLY advantage of the latter is that if you decide you really
need to change camera aperture during the shooting session -- for
reasons of depth of field or to stretch your range -- then you have
to change it on the flash as well. ...

Click to expand...

What I meant to say in the last couple of lines was:

" then you DON'T have to change it on the flash (Promaster) as well."

... but you probably worked that out anyway ;-)

Mike

Click to expand...

Netopia · Mar 20, 2004

Shay Stephens said:
Sunpak all the way. You will learn and get good results at the
same time you save some cash.

I just picked up one of the sub-$500 717's from Circuit City and plan to sell my 707 on ebay. I already have a Promaster 5750, so I figured that I'd be using that... but I've also got a very nice (but much older) Sunpak 522 Auto (with a hot shoe accessory) that I suppose I could use with the 717.

Would it be your recommendation that I should use the 522 and learn how to manipulate it with the 717 or just stick with the Promaster?

One other side note... I previously just had the Promaster mounted in my 707 cold shoe but have thought about buying something to get it off to the side. The 522 comes with an old-style bracket (BIG flash) that would mount under my older Canon A1. The problem is that when I mounted the 717 on the flash braket I could no longer get at the controls on the left side of the lens barrel! What do other people do about where the mounting hole is on the 7x7 series?

Thanks in advance for and/all answers!

Joe

Mike Fitzgerald · Mar 20, 2004

Netopia said:
I just picked up one of the sub-$500 717's from Circuit City and
plan to sell my 707 on ebay. I already have a Promaster 5750, so I
figured that I'd be using that... but I've also got a very nice
(but much older) Sunpak 522 Auto (with a hot shoe accessory) that I
suppose I could use with the 717.

Would it be your recommendation that I should use the 522 and learn
how to manipulate it with the 717 or just stick with the Promaster?

Hi Joe --

Firstly I'd be inclined to measure the trigger circuit input voltage on your particular copy of this flash, as there have been variable results reported: http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html . The lowest two figures quoted at that site should be safe enough, but in view of Sony's continued refusal to quote a specification I wouldn't be gambling on anything higher without interposing a Wein Safe-Sync. The 522 can probably be considered a serious enough piece of kit to warrant the cost of the Safe-Sync.

Beyond that I know next to nought about the 522, but I gather it's a professional grade handle-mount flash that can operate in non-dedicated auto mode with a wide selection of apertures. That would make it a lot more versatile than the Promaster, and my comments above relating to the Promaster (and other flashes with Sony non-TTL dedication) to the Sunpak 383 Super would apply in the same way. Remember that you still don't get TTL metering with the Promaster (or anything else), leaving the only advantage as your not having to correlate aperture settings between flash and camera.

Netopia said:
One other side note... I previously just had the Promaster mounted
in my 707 cold shoe but have thought about buying something to get
it off to the side. The 522 comes with an old-style bracket (BIG
flash) that would mount under my older Canon A1. The problem is
that when I mounted the 717 on the flash braket I could no longer
get at the controls on the left side of the lens barrel! What do
other people do about where the mounting hole is on the 7x7 series?

Sorry, don't have either the Promaster or any Sony camera, so I can't help with that one.

Mike

Netopia · Mar 21, 2004

Mike,

Firstly, thanks for the response. Secondly... I'm not quite sure what the link you gave me is speaking about. Does the flash send a voltage spike back to the camera? Is that what's going on an why it's dangerous?

I used the flash last night (before reading this) for a few dozen shots and all seemed well, but maybe I was just lucky.

How would one tell what one's individual strobe voltage is? The module that goes from the flash to the camera only has a single contact on it, so if I were to use a volt meter I'm not even sure where to put the other probe.

Thanks for any help/advice.

Joe

Mike Fitzgerald said:
Firstly I'd be inclined to measure the trigger circuit input
voltage on your particular copy of this flash, as there have been
variable results reported:
http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html . The lowest two
figures quoted at that site should be safe enough, but in view of
Sony's continued refusal to quote a specification I wouldn't be
gambling on anything higher without interposing a Wein Safe-Sync.
The 522 can probably be considered a serious enough piece of kit to
warrant the cost of the Safe-Sync.

Beyond that I know next to nought about the 522, but I gather it's
a professional grade handle-mount flash that can operate in
non-dedicated auto mode with a wide selection of apertures. That
would make it a lot more versatile than the Promaster, and my
comments above relating to the Promaster (and other flashes with
Sony non-TTL dedication) to the Sunpak 383 Super would apply in the
same way. Remember that you still don't get TTL metering with the
Promaster (or anything else), leaving the only advantage as your
not having to correlate aperture settings between flash and camera.

Mike Fitzgerald said:

One other side note... I previously just had the Promaster mounted
in my 707 cold shoe but have thought about buying something to get
it off to the side. The 522 comes with an old-style bracket (BIG
flash) that would mount under my older Canon A1. The problem is
that when I mounted the 717 on the flash braket I could no longer
get at the controls on the left side of the lens barrel! What do
other people do about where the mounting hole is on the 7x7 series?

Click to expand...

Sorry, don't have either the Promaster or any Sony camera, so I
can't help with that one.

Mike

Netopia · Mar 21, 2004

DOH!

I should have read more carefully.... there was a link on that same page with instructions about how to measure.

Thanks anyway,

Joe

Netopia said:
Firstly, thanks for the response. Secondly... I'm not quite sure
what the link you gave me is speaking about. Does the flash send a
voltage spike back to the camera? Is that what's going on an why
it's dangerous?

I used the flash last night (before reading this) for a few dozen
shots and all seemed well, but maybe I was just lucky.

How would one tell what one's individual strobe voltage is? The
module that goes from the flash to the camera only has a single
contact on it, so if I were to use a volt meter I'm not even sure
where to put the other probe.

Thanks for any help/advice.

Joe

Mike Fitzgerald said:

Firstly I'd be inclined to measure the trigger circuit input
voltage on your particular copy of this flash, as there have been
variable results reported:
http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html . The lowest two
figures quoted at that site should be safe enough, but in view of
Sony's continued refusal to quote a specification I wouldn't be
gambling on anything higher without interposing a Wein Safe-Sync.
The 522 can probably be considered a serious enough piece of kit to
warrant the cost of the Safe-Sync.

Beyond that I know next to nought about the 522, but I gather it's
a professional grade handle-mount flash that can operate in
non-dedicated auto mode with a wide selection of apertures. That
would make it a lot more versatile than the Promaster, and my
comments above relating to the Promaster (and other flashes with
Sony non-TTL dedication) to the Sunpak 383 Super would apply in the
same way. Remember that you still don't get TTL metering with the
Promaster (or anything else), leaving the only advantage as your
not having to correlate aperture settings between flash and camera.

Netopia said:

One other side note... I previously just had the Promaster mounted
in my 707 cold shoe but have thought about buying something to get
it off to the side. The 522 comes with an old-style bracket (BIG
flash) that would mount under my older Canon A1. The problem is
that when I mounted the 717 on the flash braket I could no longer
get at the controls on the left side of the lens barrel! What do
other people do about where the mounting hole is on the 7x7 series?

Click to expand...

Sorry, don't have either the Promaster or any Sony camera, so I
can't help with that one.

Mike

Click to expand...

Netopia · Mar 21, 2004

WELL POOP!!!!!

I went through and measured the voltage via both the X-Sync cable and from the HotShoe module. The X-sync produced 194V while the HotShoe module produced a probable camera frying 224V!!!!

I'm SOOOOO glad that you posted that link. Last night I was TOTALLY psyched that I'd finally gotten to be able to use my old Sunpak again... and would have continued to use it right up to the point that I'd probably have burned out part of my new camera! I wouldn't be surprised if I've done some sort of damage already, but hopefully it's not something that will significantly shorten the life of the camera.

Looks like I'll be using that Promaster after all!

Joe

Mike Fitzgerald · Mar 22, 2004

Joe,

It's essentially the voltage on the main discharge capacitor, divided down more or less by the combination of a fairly high resistance in the trigger circuit and the actual instrument (results will vary) that you're using to measure it.

It's the result of relatively primitive trigger input circuitry in a world where beancounters rule and even a few cents (that's all it takes) saved in volume production is seen as worth grabbing. It was never a problem with mechanical synch. contacts in older cameras, though it's had the capability of delivering something more than an unpleasant tickle if you made contact across it -- normally quite difficult to do given the size of a PC plug and the layout of a typical hot foot.

Holding the input voltage to just a few volts is a yawn in engineering terms, whether done in the camera or in the flash. If it's done in an OEM flash, however, there's little incentive for the manufacturer to do it in the camera as well. It's made the user's responsibility, and knowing there could be a problem with third-party gear helps to scare people into choosing the OEM flash solution.

Netopia said:
Netopia said:

Firstly, thanks for the response. Secondly... I'm not quite sure
what the link you gave me is speaking about. Does the flash send a
voltage spike back to the camera? Is that what's going on an why

Click to expand...

it's dangerous?

Netopia said:
I used the flash last night (before reading this) for a few dozen
shots and all seemed well, but maybe I was just lucky.

Could be; however it's a stress over time thing so I wouldn't push my luck for too long. Unfortunately we don't know the camera's true design limits (by choice -- not difficulty), so it makes sense to be conservative with this.

You don't need to feel constrained to the Promaster. As I mentioned in the earlier post, I get the impression that the 522 is an excellent flash, and possibly still worthy of the expenditure on a Wein Safe-Sync which will remove any usage concerns:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=245292&is=REG

Mike

Netopia said:
WELL POOP!!!!!

I went through and measured the voltage via both the X-Sync cable
and from the HotShoe module. The X-sync produced 194V while the
HotShoe module produced a probable camera frying 224V!!!!

I'm SOOOOO glad that you posted that link. Last night I was TOTALLY
psyched that I'd finally gotten to be able to use my old Sunpak
again... and would have continued to use it right up to the point
that I'd probably have burned out part of my new camera! I wouldn't
be surprised if I've done some sort of damage already, but
hopefully it's not something that will significantly shorten the
life of the camera.

Looks like I'll be using that Promaster after all!

Joe

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