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don't get me started here
Perhaps because i have been following this for awhile but check out this
. Notice the SIMULATED images for the SR example.If the pictures are anything to judge by, it seems the F700 may have better ironically (notice the CA's). I'll be honest and say it's too early to tell... maybe it's about the same, which would put the F700 lens in quite good light.So why do you think the optics are better on the S20 pro? RememberThe S20, to my eye, has less noise, esp in the sky, than images out
of my f700 (then again its pretty cold in Toronto
the shots seem a bit sharper- likely due to better optics (bigger
lense)
it has more zoom also. I bet the f700 is just as good or better.
did you compare the shutter lag between the 602 and S20, any
improvements?
Is the manual focus ring more responsive on the S20?
The jpg compression options are 6M fine, 6M normal, 3M, 2M and 1M.
Perhaps you're right about the extra file size being related to the
increased dynamic range provided by the ccd4 vs ccd3 in the 602.
George
Good news about the AF. now regarding the file size, maybe since
the new sensor has a wider dynamic range, the increased file size
could be a direct result from capturing more colour...
or maybe it's just that Fuji has tweaked it's jpeg compression scheme.
how many choices does the s20 have for jpeg compression?
BTW, do you have a mac?
I'm curious to know if iPhoto recognizes the camera when hooked up
through the firewire connection?
With reference to the colour, I took some other S20 vs 602 pictures
of a brick house across the street, and without being able to
articulate it any better than this, the colour of the brick in the
S20 shots seems somehow deeper.
BTW, can anyone explain why the S20 files would be 200-500K larger
than the 602 files at the same resolution, with the same subject?
George, have you tested the AF in low-light conditions inside the
house?
does it perform better than the 602?
http://www.pixer.org/s20/s20_vs_s602/
to me it looks like both photos were taken with the same camera.
Fuji did a really bad job with the s20
thank you george
-lukas (with s7000 and Nikon D70)
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Ok, here is the test we (ok I) have been waiting for.
To demonstrate the SR combining algorithm you have to overexpose
the image and I do mean overexpose. think 4 ev overexposed.
So run outside, point your camera into a nice dark spot and set it
to spot metering, and take the reading. Go to manual and set it
there now, move it over so that it includes the shadowy dark spot
and that nice bright sunlit spot. Take the picture.
That is what this image is from the F700
http://www.pbase.com/image/23096441
If it looks like this
http://www.pbase.com/image/23135288 (same image shot in raw and
processed with different software)
then you have a winner. Fuji has fixed the SR combining algorithm.
My guess is you haven't even begun to touch the R sensor yet in
terms of exposure. It doesn't begin to provide much until the S
sensor is overexposed and don't underestimate the range of the S
sensor alone.
As S7000 and S5000 users can attest, the SCCD IV has very good
dynamic range, Fuji's own info says that it has more dynamic range
than SCCD III on the 602. Darned if I can find that link again
If you can snap the overexposed image in raw and somehow manage to
find a place to host the 12mbyte file I can extract out the S and R
sensor data separately and have a looksee to and see if Fuji has
improved anything.
As far as file size increase being because of increased dynamic
range? I don't think so, we would have seen that on the F700.
More likely, Fuji got tired of hearing about how many compression
artifacts there were and did something about it.
You can see what Fuji has done with compression and sharpening,
they sharpen images with less compression more, since less
compression tends to blur images. The sharpening tends to
introduces artifacts and increase noise. Put all of this togethor
(along with the very limited raw converter for the S7000, S5000
F700) and you can see Fuji never really put their best showing out.
Did we ever determine if the HS-V2 software has any provision for
adjusting the S R ratio? Last i heard it didn't?
David
Re: your test instructions: I understand what you're asking for,
however, it's heavily overcast in Toronto today with 10-20cm of
snow expected, so no bright sunlight, I'm afraid. Can you suggest
an alternative technique? And if you want me to proceed, can you
give me an email address I can send the 13mb RAW file to?
George
Ok, here is the test we (ok I) have been waiting for.
To demonstrate the SR combining algorithm you have to overexpose
the image and I do mean overexpose. think 4 ev overexposed.
So run outside, point your camera into a nice dark spot and set it
to spot metering, and take the reading. Go to manual and set it
there now, move it over so that it includes the shadowy dark spot
and that nice bright sunlit spot. Take the picture.
That is what this image is from the F700
http://www.pbase.com/image/23096441
If it looks like this
http://www.pbase.com/image/23135288 (same image shot in raw and
processed with different software)
then you have a winner. Fuji has fixed the SR combining algorithm.
My guess is you haven't even begun to touch the R sensor yet in
terms of exposure. It doesn't begin to provide much until the S
sensor is overexposed and don't underestimate the range of the S
sensor alone.
As S7000 and S5000 users can attest, the SCCD IV has very good
dynamic range, Fuji's own info says that it has more dynamic range
than SCCD III on the 602. Darned if I can find that link again
If you can snap the overexposed image in raw and somehow manage to
find a place to host the 12mbyte file I can extract out the S and R
sensor data separately and have a looksee to and see if Fuji has
improved anything.
As far as file size increase being because of increased dynamic
range? I don't think so, we would have seen that on the F700.
More likely, Fuji got tired of hearing about how many compression
artifacts there were and did something about it.
You can see what Fuji has done with compression and sharpening,
they sharpen images with less compression more, since less
compression tends to blur images. The sharpening tends to
introduces artifacts and increase noise. Put all of this togethor
(along with the very limited raw converter for the S7000, S5000
F700) and you can see Fuji never really put their best showing out.
Did we ever determine if the HS-V2 software has any provision for
adjusting the S R ratio? Last i heard it didn't?
David
The comparison of crops from the S7000 and S20 that I saw
First off, unless you have overexposed parts to your image, adding the R sensor does not help. Although it can produce some cool affects. And when i mean over expose, i mean it.Despite all of the work s7RAW has put in, it shows how hard it is
to properly mix the S and R signals. I ussually cannot improve on
my jpeg output
There are several options for doing this. First the Raw file contains both the S and R sensor image. So you have to shoot in raw.
No, i don't have a ready solution to that perhaps someone else can help us.
First off, unless you have overexposed parts to your image, addingDespite all of the work s7RAW has put in, it shows how hard it is
to properly mix the S and R signals. I ussually cannot improve on
my jpeg output
the R sensor does not help. Although it can produce some cool
affects. And when i mean over expose, i mean it.
Second, the combining is actually rather trivial compared to say
the Bayer interpolation. I would say for all the work S7Raw has
put into the product the combining really wasn't all that good.
Understandable, since he doesn't have the F700.
This its hard argument has been used before but the fact remains,
Fuji does it in the camera, and does it well. That is not the
problem. The problem is with the amount of R sensor and the
conditions used to trigger its use.
And just like white balance or exposure, the automatic settings
don't always give you what you want, so it is to be expected with
the SR sensor. So it is almost mind boggling that there is no
provision for manually adjusting the amount of R sensor used either
in the HS-V2 software or the camera.
There are several options for doing this. First the Raw file
contains both the S and R sensor image. So you have to shoot in
raw.
Dave Coffin with DCRAW can convert and combine but his combining
alogirthm is flawed.
There is a gentlemen name Marf on this forum that had a crude
extractor that showed both S and R image in one file.
I took this stuff and wrote a dos program and later a GUI windows
based program to extract out each image, and also combine them.
Click on my name and follow links back.
Also, Adobe photoshop CS can combine the S & R data by controlling
the exposure. This combining seems to be based on the high dynamic
range software developed by USC. At least i get similar results.
It can produces very good images and some very strange images.
And there is always S7Raw which gets better each time.
So basically, you can extract the S and R data separately and
combine them and interpolate, apply white balance, tone curve, etc.
and get an image.
Combining the S and R seems to work best with some function
outptut = f(S.R) and provide some sort of curve with more S used
at the darkest area and more R used at the brighter area. The
other thing is that the white balance of the R is different from
the S and so that must be taken into account and the gamma
adjustment needs to be done and really you are converting three
images.
I believe that is one of the problems with third party converters,
they try to shoe horn the raw workflow into something geared for
one sensor and this is really three sensors.
take a look at this screen shot
http://www.pbase.com/image/24783476
Here you see three windows open with the S, R and combined sensors.
This is what is needed to work on the S&R sensor and produce a
decent output.
But like i said, Fuji knows how to combine the S&R sensor. The
fact that you can't tell when itis combined is an indication of
this.
No, i don't have a ready solution to that perhaps someone else can
help us.
Fer you around?
David
Let me answer that good question.
Let me answer that good question.
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Anything I am seeing so far from the pictures, is virtually identical F700 behavior. But I agree it's early.
