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Fuji S2 support guy said he did not think so, BUT that the HS-V2 converter was updated for shipment with the S20Pro......whatever that means.
TMc
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Fuji S2 support guy said he did not think so, BUT that the HS-V2 converter was updated for shipment with the S20Pro......whatever that means.
TMc
gaja
Well-known member
Maybe this link has been mentioned, if not here are some s20 samples.
http://digitalphotographers.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=9196015511&f=6566066021&m=58410196111&r=58410196111#58410196111
and here some more photos
http://www.digitalphotographers.net/images/s20/s20two/fujis20web2/images/index.htm
http://digitalphotographers.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=9196015511&f=6566066021&m=58410196111&r=58410196111#58410196111
and here some more photos
http://www.digitalphotographers.net/images/s20/s20two/fujis20web2/images/index.htm
jkirk@oz
Senior Member
Thanks to George -
Three S20 shots posted - 2.7MB ea
http://www.pbase.com/digsys/fuji_s20
Just got up here, and have to rush straight to work. Anyone have comments?
JKirk
Three S20 shots posted - 2.7MB ea
http://www.pbase.com/digsys/fuji_s20
Just got up here, and have to rush straight to work. Anyone have comments?
JKirk
gaja
Well-known member
There are lots of samples here and comparison of d2h ,s2 and s20.
http://digitalphotographers.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=9196015511&f=6566066021&m=58410196111&r=58410196111#58410196111
Some more photos.
http://www.digitalphotographers.net/images/s20/s20two/fujis20web2/images/pages/DSCF0307.htm
http://digitalphotographers.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=9196015511&f=6566066021&m=58410196111&r=58410196111#58410196111
Some more photos.
http://www.digitalphotographers.net/images/s20/s20two/fujis20web2/images/pages/DSCF0307.htm
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I looked a bit, read posts, and downloaded some files for examination later. They provide some very interesting comparisons.
I also spoke with Fuji Tech Support.
I wanted to know more about the fact that both S7000 sensor and S20Pro sensor are referred to as SCCD IV.
My very serious and sincere question is: If a capable photog had an S7000 and an average amateur had an S20Pro, shooting the same somewhat challenging scene (dynamic range concern), can the pro, deliberately stop down the shot and get the same (SAME) result after post processing and bringing up the shadow detail?
In other words, am I paying for very nice dynamic range "out of the camera" but could get the SAME thing lots cheaper by being willing to learn to underexpose and then use good post processing?
Current difference is about $420.U.S. HS-V2 uses up maybe $150. Bigger buffer and faster fps is worth $??. Firewire, PC control is worth $??
Seems like there is around $150. to $200. worth of fat in there...........but maybe worthwhile for ease of use and avoidance of much PP.
I hope we see some good posts from capable people after reviewing these pics. If so, do we need a new thread?
TMc
The right sample has the most dynamic range in light but it looks like about the same as the F700? Again, you can't tell unless you were there, have a comparison shot from another camera, or shoot in the same settings in raw and extract out the R and S sensor separately and yes we can do that.
The good news, for those wanting this camera, is that the middle shot that i looked at closely was shot in normal fine mode and it has very little if any sharpening. The F700 by contrast has more sharpening even in soft and again what i have seen is Fuji uses more sharpening as compression is increased.
Since the S20pro seems to have the least compression yet, it should have the least amount of sharpening and from my view it does.
So finally, a decent compression with very little sharpening. Fuji is letting the sensor do its job instead and let you tweak the picture using your software later.
I don't know if Fuji is listening or has been listening but this is a big step in the right direction.
I wonder what fine, soft/normal/sharp looks like?
David
The good news, for those wanting this camera, is that the middle shot that i looked at closely was shot in normal fine mode and it has very little if any sharpening. The F700 by contrast has more sharpening even in soft and again what i have seen is Fuji uses more sharpening as compression is increased.
Since the S20pro seems to have the least compression yet, it should have the least amount of sharpening and from my view it does.
So finally, a decent compression with very little sharpening. Fuji is letting the sensor do its job instead and let you tweak the picture using your software later.
I don't know if Fuji is listening or has been listening but this is a big step in the right direction.
I wonder what fine, soft/normal/sharp looks like?
David
George Goodwin
Active member
The brochure for the S20 - and I think it's repeated on the fujifilm.com web-site - make it clear in a quite detailed way that the CCD4 chip in the 700 and the S20 are very different. The HR (700) is optimized for resolution (12 mp interpolated ultimately) while the SR flavour of the CCD4 chip is optimized for dynamic range. It was one of the factors that led me to choose the S20 over the 700, actually, being more interested in overall picture quality than sheer numbers of pixels. I'm never likely to go much beyond 8x10 in any case, so 6mp should be fine.
George
George
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I looked at the sensor info too and concluded much the same thing. Then I reflected on the fact that both were referred to as SCCD IV.
That seems strange in light of S3 coming and S20Pro.......why would they not call it SCCD V?
No question about the "out of camera" result being very different. But is that because they scan/sample the sensor differently rather than a totally different sensor?
I think you are correct, but that is the strangest marketing strategy I have ever seen! Develop a totally new sensor and then call it the same thing? Strange.
Either way, I really like everything I see so far from the S20Pro.
TMc
Brave Pilgrim
Member
George, thanks again and a few more questions...
did you compare the shutter lag between the 602 and S20, any improvements?
Is the manual focus ring more responsive on the S20?
did you compare the shutter lag between the 602 and S20, any improvements?
Is the manual focus ring more responsive on the S20?
The jpg compression options are 6M fine, 6M normal, 3M, 2M and 1M.
Perhaps you're right about the extra file size being related to the
increased dynamic range provided by the ccd4 vs ccd3 in the 602.
George
Good news about the AF. now regarding the file size, maybe since
the new sensor has a wider dynamic range, the increased file size
could be a direct result from capturing more colour...
or maybe it's just that Fuji has tweaked it's jpeg compression scheme.
how many choices does the s20 have for jpeg compression?
BTW, do you have a mac?
I'm curious to know if iPhoto recognizes the camera when hooked up
through the firewire connection?
With reference to the colour, I took some other S20 vs 602 pictures
of a brick house across the street, and without being able to
articulate it any better than this, the colour of the brick in the
S20 shots seems somehow deeper.
BTW, can anyone explain why the S20 files would be 200-500K larger
than the 602 files at the same resolution, with the same subject?
George, have you tested the AF in low-light conditions inside the
house?
does it perform better than the 602?
http://www.pixer.org/s20/s20_vs_s602/
to me it looks like both photos were taken with the same camera.
Fuji did a really bad job with the s20
thank you george
-lukas (with s7000 and Nikon D70)
It has been very interesting reading about/viewing shots from the s20. I figure the S20 will be the full sized f700 (with its identical sensor sccd4SR) much like the s7000 is the big F610 (share the sccd4HR).
My initial impression of these samples is not all that different than Bigwavedaves comparison of the S602Z and the F700 a while back. If you flip back and forth betweenthe samples you can see fuji has made strides improving dynamic range, lending more depth to the image, however it is not a night and day, knock your socks off type of difference.
The S20, to my eye, has less noise, esp in the sky, than images out of my f700 (then again its pretty cold in Toronto
Also, most of the shots seem a bit sharper- likely due to better optics (bigger lense) and to some degree due to less jpeg compression (although I can't get my images much sharper using RAW.)
Just to show what the SR sensor can (and cannot) do, here is a shot taken this weekend, unprocessed, that reaaly pushed the F700 to its limits. I think lots more detail could be extracted with post-processing (the F700 defaults to a very contrast image):
here is the original source: http://www.pbase.com/image/26973080
I wonder how the same shot taken with the S7000 or S20 would have come out. I was pretty pleased given the extreme range of light in the image. The SR sensor tends to hold onto color info well in both shadow and overexposed areas, maybe the S20's better optics will cut down on CA.
I still can't believe the F700 goes for $300, and the S20, with the smae sensor and many similar features is coming out 3X higher, given the S7000 and f610 are much closer in price and a similar comparison in feature set.
My initial impression of these samples is not all that different than Bigwavedaves comparison of the S602Z and the F700 a while back. If you flip back and forth betweenthe samples you can see fuji has made strides improving dynamic range, lending more depth to the image, however it is not a night and day, knock your socks off type of difference.
The S20, to my eye, has less noise, esp in the sky, than images out of my f700 (then again its pretty cold in Toronto
Also, most of the shots seem a bit sharper- likely due to better optics (bigger lense) and to some degree due to less jpeg compression (although I can't get my images much sharper using RAW.)Just to show what the SR sensor can (and cannot) do, here is a shot taken this weekend, unprocessed, that reaaly pushed the F700 to its limits. I think lots more detail could be extracted with post-processing (the F700 defaults to a very contrast image):
here is the original source: http://www.pbase.com/image/26973080
I wonder how the same shot taken with the S7000 or S20 would have come out. I was pretty pleased given the extreme range of light in the image. The SR sensor tends to hold onto color info well in both shadow and overexposed areas, maybe the S20's better optics will cut down on CA.
I still can't believe the F700 goes for $300, and the S20, with the smae sensor and many similar features is coming out 3X higher, given the S7000 and f610 are much closer in price and a similar comparison in feature set.
So why do you think the optics are better on the S20 pro? Remember it has more zoom also. I bet the f700 is just as good or better.The S20, to my eye, has less noise, esp in the sky, than images out
of my f700 (then again its pretty cold in Toronto
the shots seem a bit sharper- likely due to better optics (bigger
lense)
jpeg compression tends to blur things, reduce noise while sharpening, that increases noise and the S20 has less sharpening, because, again, Fuji seems to sharpen less when there is less jpeg compression.
David
You make a good point about the lenses- its hard to say if you get more distortion from an ultra-compact lens(ussually softness at the edges) or from a normal sized ultrazoom. Thus the appeal of dSLR's.
I can notice the sharpening halos on close inspection of my pics, but I think jpeg compression is only part of the story of image softness. Some cameras take sharper pictures than others, and its ussually due to the optics (eg oly has a good track record in this regard.) I guess I would have to ask an experienced reviewer their impression of the f700's optics.
Also- whenever you see the sun in an F700 pic like the one I posted, you can see the R sensor is being used to some extent (doesn't look like a large fireball like from the S sensor.)
I can notice the sharpening halos on close inspection of my pics, but I think jpeg compression is only part of the story of image softness. Some cameras take sharper pictures than others, and its ussually due to the optics (eg oly has a good track record in this regard.) I guess I would have to ask an experienced reviewer their impression of the f700's optics.
Also- whenever you see the sun in an F700 pic like the one I posted, you can see the R sensor is being used to some extent (doesn't look like a large fireball like from the S sensor.)
So why do you think the optics are better on the S20 pro? RememberThe S20, to my eye, has less noise, esp in the sky, than images out
of my f700 (then again its pretty cold in Toronto
the shots seem a bit sharper- likely due to better optics (bigger
lense)
it has more zoom also. I bet the f700 is just as good or better.
jpeg compression tends to blur things, reduce noise while
sharpening, that increases noise and the S20 has less sharpening,
because, again, Fuji seems to sharpen less when there is less jpeg
compression.
David
I read thiese descriptors, but for the first time. I can't read everything posted or printed............are these the actual sensor names and are they "officially" stated somewhere by Fuji? I am still baffled at the subtle differentiation when two important (to Fuji) new products depend on them for new sales.
TMc
TMc
http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epartners/superccd/flash/superccd.html
I remember seeing an illustration showing how the SR is targetted toward greater DR while the HR is for higher res. How they actually perform...
I remember seeing an illustration showing how the SR is targetted toward greater DR while the HR is for higher res. How they actually perform...
Do you realize that the the SCCD IV HR and SR were announced at the same time?
Imagine the confusion:
Fuji press release. Today Fujjifilm announced two new sensors SCCD IV and SCCD V. First we will introduce the F700 with the SCCD V and then three cameras with the SCCD IV and then more cameras with the SCCD V.
No, i think Fuji has it right, at least in nomenclature.
I expect the sensor is the same, just more of them in a given area for HR and different sizes for the SR. Just like Fuji says.
Again, the naming is not really odd, it makes sense. What is really odd is the implementation of the firmware.
Same fuji press release
Today we are announcing the SCCD IV SR. We will then put it into a small camera vice the S602 sucessor. A gutsy move we know but there is a hug market for small cameras. We will even design a new lens and great ergonomics. And then, we will cripple the camera output with image processing that has too much compression, oversharpens images, and produces too much red. But what is worse, we will not give you any provision to control the amount of R sensor added. We will implement some algorithm that is completely mysterious and gives results that major reviewers will find doesn't do much. Then we will not explain it and leave it to you to figure it out.
We will provide a raw output but not give you any software to adjust the R sensor.
So Fuji is really dropping the ball here. As we have seen, the R sensor can give dramatic results. If Fuji simply implemented the following settings on the camera
S sensor only
R sensor small amount
R sensor more
R sensor alot
R sensor auto
and then had a manual setting for adding differing amounts of the R sensor in the raw converter software people would be really excited about the SR sensor.
For one, you would really be able to see the affect of the R sensor by one, turning it off, and then turning it on in various amounts!
When you shoot a picture and show it on this forum and say, see, look at all of the dynamic range increase, i have to say, compared to what? I have taken enough F700 images and stripped out the S and R sensor and combined them again to say, you really have to have a comparison to see what is going on and you really have to see the R & S sensor to be sure they were combined. Otherwise, i fear you are looking at wishful thinking.
David
----------------------------------------
Thank-you for this link! I never saw it. Wouldn't Fuji be amazing if they took identical pics of a couple scenes optimizing HR (and showing SR image) and a couple optimizing SR (and showing HR image). Too much to ask I guess.
Maybe one of our FT gurus can pull it off.
If I get off my duff and grab the S20Pro tomorrow then I will do it.
TMc
If you are interested in how the lens performs at focal length and aperature extremes on the F700, see my test:
http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/digitalcams/fuji_f700/res_tests/index.html
Note that the test is only valid for the genral central area of lens, since i have not made provisions to perform weighted tests to compensate for total lens performance.
-Chris
http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/digitalcams/fuji_f700/res_tests/index.html
Note that the test is only valid for the genral central area of lens, since i have not made provisions to perform weighted tests to compensate for total lens performance.
-Chris
I can notice the sharpening halos on close inspection of my pics,
but I think jpeg compression is only part of the story of image
softness. Some cameras take sharper pictures than others, and its
ussually due to the optics (eg oly has a good track record in this
regard.) I guess I would have to ask an experienced reviewer their
impression of the f700's optics.
Also- whenever you see the sun in an F700 pic like the one I
posted, you can see the R sensor is being used to some extent
(doesn't look like a large fireball like from the S sensor.)
So why do you think the optics are better on the S20 pro? RememberThe S20, to my eye, has less noise, esp in the sky, than images out
of my f700 (then again its pretty cold in Toronto
the shots seem a bit sharper- likely due to better optics (bigger
lense)
it has more zoom also. I bet the f700 is just as good or better.
jpeg compression tends to blur things, reduce noise while
sharpening, that increases noise and the S20 has less sharpening,
because, again, Fuji seems to sharpen less when there is less jpeg
compression.
David
[snip]
----------------------------------
Hi David. See my post lower in the thread. I had never seen the SCCD IV HR and SCCD IV SR slide show before. Perhaps a bit more of this and Fuji's marketing strategy would have been clearer.
I see your points and do not disagree. I believe Fuji could do a much better job with their telephone / e-mail support people AND insist that sales outlets use an exact copy of the Fuji product descriptions emphasizing HR and SR as appropriate. I have looked at an incredible number of websites and posts and the HR / SR message never got thru.
TMc
I can not offer substantiation, but if the S20 uses an equivalent or better optical system then the S602, then I feel that the S20 will have better optics. The F700 sample i tested only remained sharp and relatively free of CA problems while near the central area of the lens, or when stopped down considerably. the S602 that I used to own seemed to have overall superior performance lens. Additionally, the F700 lens is not very bright, losing light rapidly at it's telephoto settings. The S602, for example, was f3.1 at 210mm(35mm equivalent) setting. However, the F700 does have a multitude of strengths that i enjoyed, especially the amazing(too me) low noise at ISO800 setting.
-Chris
-Chris
So why do you think the optics are better on the S20 pro? RememberThe S20, to my eye, has less noise, esp in the sky, than images out
of my f700 (then again its pretty cold in Toronto
the shots seem a bit sharper- likely due to better optics (bigger
lense)
it has more zoom also. I bet the f700 is just as good or better.
jpeg compression tends to blur things, reduce noise while
sharpening, that increases noise and the S20 has less sharpening,
because, again, Fuji seems to sharpen less when there is less jpeg
compression.
David
Thanks for your input re the lenses. I have never used the s7000 or s602Z, so your hands on experience is helpful.
-Chris
So why do you think the optics are better on the S20 pro? RememberThe S20, to my eye, has less noise, esp in the sky, than images out
of my f700 (then again its pretty cold in Toronto
the shots seem a bit sharper- likely due to better optics (bigger
lense)
it has more zoom also. I bet the f700 is just as good or better.
jpeg compression tends to blur things, reduce noise while
sharpening, that increases noise and the S20 has less sharpening,
because, again, Fuji seems to sharpen less when there is less jpeg
compression.
David
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