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ist D softness: Why not release a firmware upgradtion?

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Tony Shen78761

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*ist D image softness: Why not release a firmware upgradtion to enhance the in-camera sharpness range from -1, 0, +1, +2, +3? Is it very difficult to do this? Or is it much better to sharp the image by converting from RAW to JPG than using the in-camera sharpness algorithm? Is so, does it mean there is different sharpness algorithm applied in camera/in PC?
 
Hi Tony,
Tony6838 said:
*ist D image softness: Why not release a firmware upgradtion to
enhance the in-camera sharpness range from -1, 0, +1, +2, +3?
Click to expand...
This could be a solution, yes. But *ist D owners are so very content with the status quo that there is not pressure for Pentax to solve the issue.

Before you all start flaming, notice that I say "issue" and not "problem". 3:-) And, yes, in virtually all discussions about softness, the standard answer is "you can sharpen in Photoshop". I personally don't agree with that. I would like to have the choice of instructing the camera to sharpen more or less, depending on my mood.
Tony Shen78761 said:
Is it very difficult to do this?
Click to expand...
I imagine that it is quite easy.
Tony Shen78761 said:
Or is it much better to sharp the image by converting from RAW to JPG
than using the in-camera sharpness algorithm? Is so, does it mean there
is different sharpness algorithm applied in camera/in PC?
Click to expand...
It is better sho sharpen in the post-processing stage because you have more control. The body needs to sharpen very fast (otherwise it will take too long before taking the next shot), so the sharpening algorithms is probably optimised for speed and not for quality.

However, in plenty of situations you want the body to deliver "sharp" results straight out of the body. So additional sharpness settings would definitely be a welcome in the next firmware update.

Cheers,
Bojidar

--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Image gallery at http://gallery.BDimitrov.de/
 
Sharpness is in the eye of the beholder. I set my *ist sharpness to +1 and it seems to be sufficient for most, if not all situations. I used to have Canon D30 and 10D and the pictures came out of the camera much softer than with Pentax.
Tony6838 said:
*ist D image softness:
Click to expand...
 
worsel said:
Sharpness is in the eye of the beholder.
Click to expand...
I couldn't agree more. For myself, I find the images just fine, but everyone has different tastes. If Pentax does address the issue, I only hope that they expand our sharpening choices by adding increments beyond the current three. That way those who like the current sharpness level can still keep them in camera while those who prefer a sharper image straight from the camera can have the option.

As long as Pentax doesn't decide to simply "turn up the sharpening" at all levels while retaining only a few increments, I say let's have it in the next firmware. After all, a camera built for this price point/experience level should put the choice in the hands of the user.

My two cents worth, anyway.
 
Soft Pentax images, (softer than comparable DSLR's), are a myth, mostly started by people with an anti-Pentax axe to grind. For example, suppose I wanted to review a product, and the manufacturer wouldnt send me one, or wouldnt let me keep it..... I may be unhappy, (well, I wouldnt care actually, but some might). Some folks in that position j-u-s-t m-i-g-h-t Start bad mouthing the product. Hmmmmmm....... Any bells ringing, anyone?????
 
With PS CS having RAW support for Pentax, I almost exclusively shoot in RAW now. With that, I can't see anything to support the issue (or myth?) that *ist-D images are softer. Shoot in RAW and IMO the lens becomes the limiting factor in terms of sharpness.

This has been discussed countless times all over the net. Still, I like the way Pentax engineers decided to have a more conservative in-camera sharpnenning. This gives you more control in post-processing.
Tony6838 said:
*ist D image softness: Why not release a firmware upgradtion to
enhance the in-camera sharpness range from -1, 0, +1, +2, +3? Is it
very difficult to do this? Or is it much better to sharp the image
by converting from RAW to JPG than using the in-camera sharpness
algorithm? Is so, does it mean there is different sharpness
algorithm applied in camera/in PC?
Click to expand...
--
http://www.photonski.com/shotgun
http://www.pbase.com/santyluib/first_istd_sample_photos
--------------------------------
'It's only a PENTAX!'
 
Tony6838 said:
*ist D image softness: Why not release a firmware upgradtion to
enhance the in-camera sharpness range from -1, 0, +1, +2, +3? Is it
very difficult to do this? Or is it much better to sharp the image
by converting from RAW to JPG than using the in-camera sharpness
algorithm? Is so, does it mean there is different sharpness
algorithm applied in camera/in PC?
Click to expand...
*ist D produces highly polished photos and indeed its noise level at ISO 200 is the lowest for all the DSLR tested by Phil. Therefore, if you have a not so sharp lens then the polished picture will appear soft when you zoom in. This is similar to the case that you ve used photo editor to smooth some areas of blur or with noise.

Actually, my *ist D with prime produce extremely sharp pictures (even at the four corners) with the default 0 setting. So, I believe that finer settings will cause camera will make things complex and I prefer to have only 3 steps chosen at the camera, i.e. -, 0, +.

Also, I wish to remark that over-sharpening will cause unnaturalness, I don't like the +1 setting of the *ist D actually, it is too much and the 0 is fine. Use better lenses is the only way to go.

--
Best Regards,

RiceHigh - 15 years with Pentax AF SLR system; See my Profile for my equipment set.
 
Hi,
Shotgun said:
With PS CS having RAW support for Pentax, I almost exclusively
shoot in RAW now. With that, I can't see anything to support the
issue (or myth?) that *ist-D images are softer. Shoot in RAW and
IMO the lens becomes the limiting factor in terms of sharpness.
Click to expand...
I too shoot almost exclusively RAW, but it is not reasonable to expect that everyone should use RAW in every situation...

Cheers,
Bojidar

--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Image gallery at http://gallery.BDimitrov.de/
 
RiceHigh said:
*ist D produces highly polished photos and indeed its noise level
at ISO 200 is the lowest for all the DSLR tested by Phil.
Therefore, if you have a not so sharp lens then the polished
picture will appear soft when you zoom in. This is similar to the
case that you ve used photo editor to smooth some areas of blur or
with noise.

Actually, my *ist D with prime produce extremely sharp pictures
(even at the four corners) with the default 0 setting. So, I
believe that finer settings will cause camera will make things
complex and I prefer to have only 3 steps chosen at the camera,
i.e. -, 0, +.

Also, I wish to remark that over-sharpening will cause
unnaturalness, I don't like the +1 setting of the *ist D actually,
it is too much and the 0 is fine. Use better lenses is the only way
to go.

--
Best Regards,
RiceHigh - 15 years with Pentax AF SLR system; See my Profile for
my equipment set.
Click to expand...
Absolutely right! The *istD produces images straight from the camera as sharp as any other. Lenses are the main factor in the degree of sharpness apparent.

--NN
 
J2D2 said:
Soft Pentax images, (softer than comparable DSLR's), are a myth,
mostly started by people with an anti-Pentax axe to grind. For
example, suppose I wanted to review a product, and the manufacturer
wouldnt send me one, or wouldnt let me keep it..... I may be
unhappy, (well, I wouldnt care actually, but some might). Some
folks in that position j-u-s-t m-i-g-h-t Start bad mouthing the
product. Hmmmmmm....... Any bells ringing, anyone?????
Click to expand...
::begin attempt_to_anger_J2D2::

On the other hand, people whou bought the Penatx j-u-s-t m-i-g-h-t feel silly for having spent a hat full of money for a camera that takes soft images, and they find all possible explanations why it is still good. Any bells ringing, anyone?????
::end attempt_to_anger_J2D2::

I do not belong to either of the above two cathegories, but as long as J2D2 is speculating, I too am allowed to...

While sharpness IS in the eye of the beholder, resolution is NOT. I have done controlled resolution tests with the Canon 10D and the *ist D, and they were very close. Still, probably due to the lower degree of sharpening, the *ist D images looked somewhat softer to my eye than those from the 10D. As expected, a quick application of the sharpness mask solved the "issue".

Cheers,
Bojidar

--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Image gallery at http://gallery.BDimitrov.de/
 
Bojidar Dimitrov said:
J2D2 said:
Soft Pentax images, (softer than comparable DSLR's), are a myth,
mostly started by people with an anti-Pentax axe to grind. For
example, suppose I wanted to review a product, and the manufacturer
wouldnt send me one, or wouldnt let me keep it..... I may be
unhappy, (well, I wouldnt care actually, but some might). Some
folks in that position j-u-s-t m-i-g-h-t Start bad mouthing the
product. Hmmmmmm....... Any bells ringing, anyone?????
Click to expand...
::begin attempt_to_anger_J2D2::
On the other hand, people whou bought the Penatx j-u-s-t m-i-g-h-t
feel silly for having spent a hat full of money for a camera that
takes soft images, and they find all possible explanations why it
is still good. Any bells ringing, anyone?????
::end attempt_to_anger_J2D2::

I do not belong to either of the above two cathegories, but as long
as J2D2 is speculating, I too am allowed to...

While sharpness IS in the eye of the beholder, resolution is NOT.
I have done controlled resolution tests with the Canon 10D and the
*ist D, and they were very close. Still, probably due to the lower
degree of sharpening, the *ist D images looked somewhat softer to
my eye than those from the 10D. As expected, a quick application
of the sharpness mask solved the "issue".

Cheers,
Bojidar

--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Image gallery at http://gallery.BDimitrov.de/
Click to expand...
 
I agree there too. Having just moved up from the standard 18-35 to 16-45, I can say that softness is no longer an issue - it turns out it was all due to the lens...
noisynoodle said:
Absolutely right! The *istD produces images straight from the
camera as sharp as any other. Lenses are the main factor in the
degree of sharpness apparent.

--NN
Click to expand...
 
Hi,

some in this thread have said that the *ist D images are soft. Others have said "no, they are not sharpened", and yet others say, "they are no worse than "the others"".

Sharpness ususally refers to "APPARENT sharpness", a totally different thing from sensor resolution, a totally different thing from lens resolution.

The SENSOR RESOLUTION of the *ist D virtually equal to that of the 10D.

The LENS RESOLUTION has nothing to do with the body, but of course, a lens wtih a higher resolution will fascillitate images with higher resolution.

The SHARPNESS == APARENT SHAPRNESS == EDGE SHARPNESS depends on image processing in the body (electronics, firmare and software), and it can be good or bad, more or less strong.

Apparently the *ist D produces images with equal resolution but the image processing applies less (aparent) sharpening, so the images look softer, but can be sharpened with computer software. The problem that some people have is that all sharpness settings in the body are not agressive enough. And the original poster asked if a firmare update could add more sharpness settings that achieve even more agressive sharpneing as is now possible (in the body alone).

The answer is yes, it can be done in software. All those who want to sharpen later, please do not use the new settings. But all those who do not want to fiddle with RAW-> JPG conversion, sharpening masks, etc. would gladly have a +4 sharpness level.

Cheers,
Bojidar

--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Image gallery at http://gallery.BDimitrov.de/
 
Am I right in thinking that the sharpness setting is totally irrelevant if you shoot in RAW and there isn't any processing applied to the image?

If so, is the sharpening applied to the embedded JPGs and hence to what is seen on the review screen even if shooting in RAW?

Nick.
Bojidar Dimitrov said:
Hi,

All those who want
to sharpen later, please do not use the new settings. But all
those who do not want to fiddle with RAW-> JPG conversion,
sharpening masks, etc. would gladly have a +4 sharpness level.

Cheers,
Bojidar

--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Image gallery at http://gallery.BDimitrov.de/
Click to expand...
 
Hi,
PentaxNick said:
Am I right in thinking that the sharpness setting is totally
irrelevant if you shoot in RAW and there isn't any processing
applied to the image?
Click to expand...
Well, only Pentax knows what exactly happens, but the idea is that the RAW format describes"exactly" what the sensor sees and that no sharpening takes place at that time. Still, there is an analog-to-digital conversion at the moment when the image gets captured, and that conversion could be "1-to-1" or it could be "1-to-let's-make-it-pretty-1".

When shooting RAW and converting to TIFF or JPG, the sharpening stage occurs during the conversion, in the RAW processor on your computer, and this is subject to other settings/algorithms/processing power.
PentaxNick said:
If so, is the sharpening applied to the embedded JPGs and hence to
what is seen on the review screen even if shooting in RAW?
Click to expand...
Again, probably only Pentax knows. I imagine that the preview image is a downsampling of the raw data. This way it would work the same for RAW; TIFF and JPG.

Cheers,
Bojidar

--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Image gallery at http://gallery.BDimitrov.de/
 
OK Bojidar, here is something a little different:

1. Some have claimed that soft Pentax images are due to the 18-35mm lens. Phil carried out his comparative test on DSLRs with 50mm primes at f/8, so the lens was unlikely to be a factor. The *istD had the lowest resolution of the bunch, with horizontal resolution of 1500 compared to 1600 to 1650 for the others:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pentaxistd/page17.asp

A test published in the latest PC Magazine shows an even bigger difference between the *istD and the Digital Rebel, but that was probably because they used the standard zoom lenses.

2. I don't believe that this has anything to do with the in-camera sharpening. Sharpening setting just boosts the contrast at the edges, making the detail more noticeable. It can't add any detail that wasn't there. There's no way that adding sharpening to the resolution chart shots is going to make the Pentax comparable to the others.

3. Some have claimed that in RAW mode the *istD matches the resolution of the D100. I have no knowledge about that. However, if it is true it tends to support Tony's theory (in his other thread) that Pentax's jpeg processing hardware is weaker than other brands, which is not a good thing.

OK, sharpness isn't everything, but for landscapes it's important. Considering that the *istD is at the high end of the price range, it shouldn't have less resolution than the competition.

BTW, I'm a Pentax fan from way back, so I make these comments with regret rather than with a sense of glee.

http://ca.geocities.com/spirope/pentlens.html
Bojidar Dimitrov said:
Hi,

some in this thread have said that the *ist D images are soft.
Others have said "no, they are not sharpened", and yet others say,
"they are no worse than "the others"".

Sharpness ususally refers to "APPARENT sharpness", a totally
different thing from sensor resolution, a totally different thing
from lens resolution.

The SENSOR RESOLUTION of the *ist D virtually equal to that of the
10D.
Click to expand...
 
Good post there, Bojidar. Can't agree more!

Personally, these issue has never bothered me since day one of owning the *ist-D. I am aware that the in-camera sharpness setting is a bit conservative than 10D, but this is software issue, not hardware.
Bojidar Dimitrov said:
Hi,

some in this thread have said that the *ist D images are soft.
Others have said "no, they are not sharpened", and yet others say,
"they are no worse than "the others"".

Sharpness ususally refers to "APPARENT sharpness", a totally
different thing from sensor resolution, a totally different thing
from lens resolution.

The SENSOR RESOLUTION of the *ist D virtually equal to that of the
10D.

The LENS RESOLUTION has nothing to do with the body, but of course,
a lens wtih a higher resolution will fascillitate images with
higher resolution.

The SHARPNESS == APARENT SHAPRNESS == EDGE SHARPNESS depends on
image processing in the body (electronics, firmare and software),
and it can be good or bad, more or less strong.

Apparently the *ist D produces images with equal resolution but the
image processing applies less (aparent) sharpening, so the images
look softer, but can be sharpened with computer software. The
problem that some people have is that all sharpness settings in the
body are not agressive enough. And the original poster asked if a
firmare update could add more sharpness settings that achieve even
more agressive sharpneing as is now possible (in the body alone).

The answer is yes, it can be done in software. All those who want
to sharpen later, please do not use the new settings. But all
those who do not want to fiddle with RAW-> JPG conversion,
sharpening masks, etc. would gladly have a +4 sharpness level.

Cheers,
Bojidar

--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Image gallery at http://gallery.BDimitrov.de/
Click to expand...
--
http://www.photonski.com/shotgun
http://www.pbase.com/santyluib/first_istd_sample_photos
--------------------------------
'It's only a PENTAX!'
 
PentaxNick,

I think only Pentax has the full authority to give you the precise answer on this one. But, in my own observation, I would think the RAW is VERY close to what the sensor sees (if not 1-to-1). I said "very close" because there is still a conversion occuring between analog to digital, and RAW is supposedly "untouched" by in-camera enhancements (Sharpenning, White Balance, Contrast, Saturation). In short, it is your digital negative and so the lens quality is the key factor for image sharpness.

I have always noticed that the shots I took with RAW appears to be somewhat sharper than the ones taken with JPEG with the same lense, and same settings. I could be wrong.

Just my .2 cents ;)
PentaxNick said:
Nick.
Bojidar Dimitrov said:
Hi,

All those who want
to sharpen later, please do not use the new settings. But all
those who do not want to fiddle with RAW-> JPG conversion,
sharpening masks, etc. would gladly have a +4 sharpness level.

Cheers,
Bojidar

--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Image gallery at http://gallery.BDimitrov.de/
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
http://www.photonski.com/shotgun
http://www.pbase.com/santyluib/first_istd_sample_photos
--------------------------------
'It's only a PENTAX!'
 
J2D2 said:
Hey Boji, here's an idea. If you LURVE your Canon so much, why not
use it and
Click to expand...
The weather around here is pretty bad, so I thought I'd up with you instead...

I am not a native English speaker, but I can hold up with your language pretty well. I suggest that we stop this silliness.

Bojidar
 
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