90mm @ 1/250, need tripod?

Michael Soo119924

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Can some experts here answer some tripod questions I have? First of all, am I correct in assuming thatshutter speed of above 1/focal length means hand holding shots are OK?

Here are questions:

1. If I am using a 90mm lens, shooting at 1/250s, do I need a tripod?
2. What about I'm using a 400mm lens shooting at 1/500s?

What is the determining factor of when I should start considering using a monopod or tripod?

Reason I ask these is because I'm going to shoot some gymnastic pictures and am wondering if I should drag my heavy tripod or monopod there...

And answers to the above questions I have may help me understand a few more things...

Thanks in advance...

--
  • MS
[email protected]
http://www.soocool.com - Explore life beyond the norms
 
I'm not an expert, but in my opinion you should do fine with both settings...
Unless your hand's shaking so bad like mine....
Can some experts here answer some tripod questions I have? First
of all, am I correct in assuming thatshutter speed of above 1/focal
length means hand holding shots are OK?

Here are questions:

1. If I am using a 90mm lens, shooting at 1/250s, do I need a tripod?
2. What about I'm using a 400mm lens shooting at 1/500s?

What is the determining factor of when I should start considering
using a monopod or tripod?

Reason I ask these is because I'm going to shoot some gymnastic
pictures and am wondering if I should drag my heavy tripod or
monopod there...

And answers to the above questions I have may help me understand a
few more things...

Thanks in advance...

--
  • MS
[email protected]
http://www.soocool.com - Explore life beyond the norms
--
May the Force be With You**
http://www.fotki.com/paklan
 
Can some experts here answer some tripod questions I have? First
of all, am I correct in assuming thatshutter speed of above 1/focal
length means hand holding shots are OK?
As a general guide, 1/(35mm equiv. focal length) should give you a good indication of what you can hand-hold.
Here are questions:

1. If I am using a 90mm lens, shooting at 1/250s, do I need a tripod?
If you find the "rule" to be useful to you then no.
2. What about I'm using a 400mm lens shooting at 1/500s?
By the same "rule", yes you would need a tripod/monopod/beanbag to help, but it's marginal, and many people would claim to be able to hand-hold this set-up.
What is the determining factor of when I should start considering
using a monopod or tripod?
The "rule of thumb" - that's what it's for!
Reason I ask these is because I'm going to shoot some gymnastic
pictures and am wondering if I should drag my heavy tripod or
monopod there...
A monopod should be no burden to you
And answers to the above questions I have may help me understand a
few more things...

Thanks in advance...

--
  • MS
[email protected]
http://www.soocool.com - Explore life beyond the norms
--
DB
 
Can some experts here answer some tripod questions I have? First
of all, am I correct in assuming thatshutter speed of above 1/focal
length means hand holding shots are OK?

Here are questions:

1. If I am using a 90mm lens, shooting at 1/250s, do I need a tripod?
The easy answer is no you don't for this.
2. What about I'm using a 400mm lens shooting at 1/500s?
The easy answer is yes you do with this. Longer lenses tend to exaggerate camera shake and also you will have to add the 1.6x factor for digital sensor. 1/640s and above for 400mm lens.
What is the determining factor of when I should start considering
using a monopod or tripod?
These "rules" vary depending on the subject and on the individual photographer. Some people can handhold a large lens and take shots at 1/60s others struggle to hold a 400mm at 1/800s. If you are not sure, use a monopod or tripod whenever possible.
--
  • MS
[email protected]
http://www.soocool.com - Explore life beyond the norms
--
Around the world in 300D's
 
why dont you try it? make some shoots with and without monopod/tripod and decide what YOU need.
 
For your shots mentioned above.

Generally, you can go without as slow as 1/60, or if you hold your breath while shooting, you can even get 1/30 clear shot without IS.

If it's not sharp enough, make your environment works for you. e.g. placing your lens on the railing, make yourself a tripod(bending your body, knees,etc )

tripod is a must when shooting low light.

my 2 cents
 
I know that IS lens can help give 1 extra stop but does badly on
tripods, right? What about monopod? Should IS be enabled if
used on a monopod? Anyone know?
  • MS
For your shots mentioned above.
Generally, you can go without as slow as 1/60, or if you hold your
breath while shooting, you can even get 1/30 clear shot without IS.

If it's not sharp enough, make your environment works for you. e.g.
placing your lens on the railing, make yourself a tripod(bending
your body, knees,etc )

tripod is a must when shooting low light.

my 2 cents
--
  • MS
[email protected]
http://www.soocool.com - Explore life beyond the norms
 
1. If I am using a 90mm lens, shooting at 1/250s, do I need a tripod?
Need? No. If you're shooting 1/25 sec with a 900 mm lens, you don't need a tripod, either. It might ( or might not ) help your shot, but the world won't just end if you don't use one!

Now, if you're shooting your lens wide-open to get that 1/250 sec shutter, a tripod will let you stop the lens down to the point where the optics are just plain sharper. This will make for a sharper picture.
2. What about I'm using a 400mm lens shooting at 1/500s?
Again, you might get better results using a tripod, but it's not essential.
What is the determining factor of when I should start considering
using a monopod or tripod?
Probably your shooting style.
Reason I ask these is because I'm going to shoot some gymnastic
pictures and am wondering if I should drag my heavy tripod or
monopod there...
Now the question isn't so much what shutter speed is necessary to freeze your camera movement / shake ... it's what speed you need to freeze your subject. You could take a 5 second exposure from a tripod, and still not have a sharp exposure of your favorite gymnist.
 
Now the question isn't so much what shutter speed is necessary to
freeze your camera movement / shake ... it's what speed you need to
freeze your subject. You could take a 5 second exposure from a
tripod, and still not have a sharp exposure of your favorite
gymnist.
Other than all the common sense answers that you are trying to provide, I got nothing from your post... I really don't mean any offense but how about telling me, "hey, I think you should keep your shutter to 1/x seconds and you'll be able to capture a good freeze action of a gymnast trying to do a mid-air jump and 1/y second while the gymnast doing a regular floor routine that has less movements. That would benefit more than what you are trying to philosophically say.

--
  • MS
[email protected]
http://www.soocool.com - Explore life beyond the norms
 
Other than all the common sense answers that you are trying to
provide, I got nothing from your post...
Sorry. I guess that paragraph where you said you were interested in learning something confused me.
I really don't mean any
offense but how about telling me, "hey, I think you should keep
your shutter to 1/x seconds and you'll be able to capture a good
freeze action of a gymnast trying to do a mid-air jump and 1/y
second while the gymnast doing a regular floor routine that has
less movements. That would benefit more than what you are trying
to philosophically say.
Okay. I'll tell you what X and Y are, as soon as you tell me what type and intensity of lighting you're shooting under, how reflective your subjects are, how fast they're moving, and how steadily you're able to hold your camera with different lenses attached.

In the meantime, you left this information out of your post, so I wasn't able to calculate how fast your shutter needs to be for you. In this absense of cold, hard data, all I was able to do was try to help you understand how things work, so you can figure out what X and Y are for yourself.
 
Ya know, Forrest, don't bother helping. You have nice landscape
pictures in your gallery...but you're not really great in helping
or teaching. LOL.
I guess we all have strength and weaknesses.
There's no need to be rude. You asked a question that has no simple or hard-and-fast answer. And you said "And answers to the above questions I have may help me understand a few more things..." So instead of writing things that wouldn't be helpful ( "it depends" or telling you what shutter speed I consider safe in my hands or just saying "do a test" ) I tried to explain just exactly what it depends on. To help you understand things. Honestly, I don't understand why you're so upset that someone took your request at face value??

Making technically good photographs involves a lot of complex compromises, and if you're goal is to make as sharp photos as possible, you should understand what's going on, and how one choice you make involves other things. There's nothing philosophical about it.

Look, you asked if shooting 1/250 sec through a 90 mm lens is okay. What answer would you like to this question? There are several:
  • Yes; it's fine.
  • It should be okay; the shutter is fast enough to eliminate camera shake most of the time.
  • Not really; on digital 90 * 1.6 = 144 mm, and it's recommended to keep your shutter above 1/2xEFL for a very good chance of sharp pictures. ( 1/EFL gives you a good chance at sharp pics, but doesn't guarentee it. )
  • No; it's never okay not to use a tripod.
  • It depends how steadily you're able to hold the camera.
  • The shutter speed sounds okay, but using a tripod would guarentee no camera movement and allow you to stop your lens down some. If you're shooting a 90-300 mm at 90 mm and wide-open, for example, the lens isn't all that sharp wide-open but improves greatly if you can afford to close it down a stop and go with 1/125 sec instead.
All of those are valid answers to your question. Other responses you got picked one of the answers as if it were the only one, but they're all appropriate. ( Some mother than others; 1/300 sec is a little bit of overkill I think. ) You should gain sharpness at shutter speeds faster than 1/90 up to a point ( I don't think you'll see much difference between 1/2000 and 1/4000 ), but where that point is depends on your hands and your technique. If 1/250 is faster than necessary, you might wind up getting sharper results by knocking it down to 1/200 and putting that 1/3 stop into the aperture.

All of this is about freezing camera shake, and applies to more or less all tripodless / flashless photography. This applies in the gym, out on a trail, shooting natural light portraits, or whatever else tickles your fancy. There's always another factor you have to be aware of, and shooting gymnastics you'll have to be keenly aware of, though. You need to stop any blur from moving your camera, but you also have to stop blur from your subject moving. The faster your subject moves, the faster a shutter you'll need to do this. Also, the angle your subject is moving in will have some impact. Never having shot gymnasitcs before, I have no idea what you're up against in this regard.

But thanks for the complements on my landscapes.
 
There's no need to be rude.
Not trying to. The only reason I said what I said was because you have to be 100% technically correct without including "assumptions based on common sense" in your answer. It's like asking someone, "what is the best approximate aperture to take a picture of a butterfly". If you want to help, you can say, "well, if you are taking a macro shot, try to set an aperture of say f16 if you can to try to keep the entire butterfly in focus".

But NO... you have to be technically correct in answering the question with a question, like, "well, depends on the exact setup you use, what kind of camera shake, if the earth is in correct rotation from the moon, etc." That does not help, and that's what I'm trying to tell you. Com'on, people are smart here and people can take normal assumptions such as follows well:

1. I'm not a frail old man who shivers from left to right with camera shake. if I am, I WILL post that.

2. I have some base knowledge in photography and I don't need those basic lessons. If I do, I'll try to tell you.

3. I KNOW that tripod is good and will create sharp image and BASED on my initial question, I DID state that. I just don't want to drag heavy equipment if I don't need to.
Look, you asked if shooting 1/250 sec through a 90 mm lens is okay.
What answer would you like to this question? There are several:
  • Yes; it's fine.
  • It should be okay; the shutter is fast enough to eliminate
camera shake most of the time.
  • Not really; on digital 90 * 1.6 = 144 mm, and it's recommended
to keep your shutter above 1/2xEFL for a very good chance of sharp
pictures. ( 1/EFL gives you a good chance at sharp pics, but
doesn't guarentee it. )
  • No; it's never okay not to use a tripod.
  • It depends how steadily you're able to hold the camera.
  • The shutter speed sounds okay, but using a tripod would guarentee
no camera movement and allow you to stop your lens down some. If
you're shooting a 90-300 mm at 90 mm and wide-open, for example,
the lens isn't all that sharp wide-open but improves greatly if you
can afford to close it down a stop and go with 1/125 sec instead.
NOW you are getting somewhere. The above answers are 1000% better than the one you tried to answer earlier. Anyone of them. AS long as you give reason why you answered that way. I'm interested in the thought process and technical reason, like most people here do. If you can state the above answers like you did, I will guarantee that people will respect you at least 200% more than they normally would and even marvel at your ability to think it so thoroughly through. If that is too long an answer for you and you don't wish to type it all out, then it is better to not to answer at all. I'm serious! ;)
There's always another factor you have
to be aware of, and shooting gymnastics you'll have to be keenly
aware of, though. You need to stop any blur from moving your
camera, but you also have to stop blur from your subject moving.
The faster your subject moves, the faster a shutter you'll need to
do this. Also, the angle your subject is moving in will have some
impact. Never having shot gymnasitcs before, I have no idea what
you're up against in this regard.
This is the part I'm most interested with. I have no experience with this and there can only be some simple range (such as between 1/100 and 1/500) that I hope someone with experience can give pointers to me at.

--
  • MS
[email protected]
http://www.soocool.com - Explore life beyond the norms
 
1/focal length*crop factor multiplier is the rule of thumb. (1/(90*1.6) or 1/144 for the 90mm and 1/(400*1.6) or 1/640 for the 400mm would be the recommended shutter speeds for hand holding.) Whether this applies to you depends on how steady you are.

If I'm out hiking I can hand hold shots at the beginning of the hike about 2 stops slower than I can at the end of the hike.
Can some experts here answer some tripod questions I have? First
of all, am I correct in assuming thatshutter speed of above 1/focal
length means hand holding shots are OK?

Here are questions:

1. If I am using a 90mm lens, shooting at 1/250s, do I need a tripod?
2. What about I'm using a 400mm lens shooting at 1/500s?

What is the determining factor of when I should start considering
using a monopod or tripod?

Reason I ask these is because I'm going to shoot some gymnastic
pictures and am wondering if I should drag my heavy tripod or
monopod there...

And answers to the above questions I have may help me understand a
few more things...

Thanks in advance...

--
  • MS
[email protected]
http://www.soocool.com - Explore life beyond the norms
--
Makinations
 
I'm trying to tell you. Com'on, people are smart here and people
can take normal assumptions such as follows well:
I'm not doubting that anyone in here is smart. Hey, you managed to come up with a thousand dollars that was SO extra that you were able to spend it on a camera; that puts you in maybe the top 3% of the world's population for applied smarts. But all smart people don't know the same things, and I don't think most of the assumptions are so normal...
1. I'm not a frail old man who shivers from left to right with
camera shake. if I am, I WILL post that.
Well, I hope I haven't offended you by sounding as if I thought you were a frail old man. But this is something that varries HUGELY between different people ... and even the same person in different settings. I like espresso, and I like my 300 mm ( = 480 mm EFL ) lens. When I use it to photograph birds on the coast of Puget Sound, where it's really, really cold and windy, I need substantially faster shutter speeds ( because I'm shivering ) to get a sharp picture than I do shooting candids downtown.

If I simply told you "... if you shoot faster than 1/200th sec you'll get sharp pics ..." I'd be lieing to you. You might wind up with sharp pictures anyway, and you might not. Imagine if I told you some arbitrary number and it steered you wrong, messed up all your shooting that night, and cost you any keepers!!

You probably wouldn't be wasting your time if you shot a few pics of your favorite poster, bookshelf, or whatever, at different shutter speeds to see where your limits are.
3. I KNOW that tripod is good and will create sharp image and BASED
on my initial question, I DID state that. I just don't want to
drag heavy equipment if I don't need to.
Then there's 75% of your answer!! The other 25% is how well you're able to hand-hold ( Daniella is a queen here ), and what kind of sharpness you're comfortable with. If you don't enjoy working from a tripod and you can manage to pull good photos out of your gear without one, than nothing else needs to be said!

But since we're specifically talking about gymnastics, a tripod could ( psychologically ) do more harm than good. Maybe you want photos of gymnists doing insane splits that I would never be able to pull off, but maybe you want to freeze a gymnist mid-flip? In the latter case, you'll still need a very fast shutter, which renders the tripod's advantage useless.
If you can state the above answers like you did, I will guarantee
that people will respect you at least 200% more than they normally
would and even marvel at your ability to think it so thoroughly
through. If that is too long an answer for you and you don't wish
to type it all out, then it is better to not to answer at all. I'm
serious! ;)
Honestly, I just poke my head in here to help. I'm not all that interested in earning peoples' respect until I know them on a more personal level. So much gets lost in translation, idea to text to idea, that the respect of someone I know in a flesh-and-blood sense means a lot more to me than someone who may well completely misunderstand me. But I've learned a GREAT DEAL from the very helpful people around here, and I'm trying to give some of that back. I'd rather share some meaningful knowledge than gain respect.

( My photos are a different story, though; I think they can actually earn respect without having to present them on paper. )

But I guarentee that if I had just said "shoot at 1/200 and you'll be fine" and then it didn't work out, you would have lost 10,000% more respect for me than from any thoughts or suggestions I could share on how photography works.
This is the part I'm most interested with. I have no experience
with this and there can only be some simple range (such as
between 1/100 and 1/500) that I hope someone with experience can
give pointers to me at.
If your subject is moving, I don't think 1/100 will be fast enough by any means. I would imagine 1/500 would be plenty in most situations, but this isn't something I have much experience with. I do know 1/100 and 1/500 is about 2.5 stops away, though, and if you're able to get away with a slower speed, you could put those stops into your ISO for less noise, or your aperture for a sharper lens and more DOF.

Exactly what shutter speed is fast enough depends on too many things to even guess at, but I would approach this in RAW mode at ISO 1600, with a big aperture lens. For starters, then adjust my settings after a few pictures. If you have a lens that's sharp wide-open this is fantastic, but if not, I think you get better photo quality closing the lens down a stop than you would reducing the ISO by that same stop. Lenses that are popular in this type of photography are usually the sharp, fast primes, like the 85/1.8 and 100 or 135 f/2.

This article explains shutter speeds and sharpness; it has a very cool section on how the direction of movement affects all of this:

http://megapixel.net/html/issueindex.php?lang=en

You might also find this site ( http://www.wlcastleman.com/ ) useful, as the man reviews several lenses and cameras specifically for their suitability to gynmastic shooting, and the DOF/speed issues relating to this type of photography. You also might want to look around photo.net for more useful info.
 
This article explains shutter speeds and sharpness; it has a very
cool section on how the direction of movement affects all of this:

http://megapixel.net/html/issueindex.php?lang=en
I can't seem to find it. :-(

--
  • MS
[email protected]
Forest has just about said it all and nobody with any photographic sense could disagree with his comments. The reasons for camera shake are almost infinitely variable and the best solution is to use a good solid tripod and remote release if it is convenient and possible to do so.

Good shooting

Ken C

--

Long live monochrome. What would Ansell Adams have produced with the 300D (or Rebel if you like).
 
Forest has just about said it all and nobody with any photographic
sense could disagree with his comments. The reasons for camera
shake are almost infinitely variable and the best solution is to
use a good solid tripod and remote release if it is convenient and
possible to do so.
Thanks. I'm glad it made some sense...! Just so, this article seems to do a pretty good job at showing how a subject's direction and angle come into play in terms of stoping or showing motion: http://megapixel.net/html/articles/article-shutterspeeds.html - The address bar doesn't change, so I guess it went straight to the English-language home page.
Long live monochrome. What would Ansell Adams have produced with
the 300D (or Rebel if you like).
Speaking of, how do you do your B/W conversions? I've been using the Channel Mixer in monochrome mode, and typically taking about 70% of the image from the red channel if there's any sky at all in my frame. Most of the rest I take from the green channel unless I like the contrasty negative look blue gives me. But it seems to do a very good job of approximating colored filters in front of the lens on B/W film. Which makes sense, since we have color filters behind the lens on what's essentially a B/W chip. I tried converting to CMYK to make a black and white using a yellow filter, and it didn't work very well at all.

Just something to play with, anyway.
 

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