New canon 2x teleconverter?

Doug Morgan · Mar 5, 2004

From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new 2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms. Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

Dennis112229 · Mar 5, 2004

Doug Morgan said:
From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

I haven't heard anything, but they have already and correct me if I'm wrong, recently the series II. I have you one and if I could get the money back out of it, it would be gone in a flash. It may work or get by with a big prime, but tele zooms will not work with it. Most of the time you will find yourself in a manual focus situation and 2 stops slower. I took mine out of the bag, waste of weight.

Dennis

Doug Morgan · Mar 5, 2004

I'd have to agree. I tried out the canon 2x with the 100-400 and though I managed to get 1 out of 3 test shots nice and sharp though they were at F16 and 1/100 or something. Wouldn't be much good for anything but bright sunlight. I didn't try handholding them but I'm sure the keeper ration would be worse than 1 in 3. You can always hope though.

Doug

Dennis said:
Doug Morgan said:

From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

Click to expand...

I haven't heard anything, but they have already and correct me if
I'm wrong, recently the series II. I have you one and if I could
get the money back out of it, it would be gone in a flash. It may
work or get by with a big prime, but tele zooms will not work with
it. Most of the time you will find yourself in a manual focus
situation and 2 stops slower. I took mine out of the bag, waste of
weight.

Dennis

AppleCanon · Mar 5, 2004

If you can invent a 2x teleconverter that sits between the camera and the lens, and loses less than two stop of light, I'll give you a million dollars.

A 2x teleconverter necessarily results in your losing 3/4 of the light; after all, your 2x teleconverter is just throwing out 3/4 of the image. While they may come out with a new 2x (which I doubt, because they have a new one that's only a few years old), I can guarantee you it won't lose less than two stops of light. Just like I can guarantee you that a 100 mm f/2 lens is going to have a front element that is at least 50 mm in diameter.

Doug Morgan said:
From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

joebloe · Mar 5, 2004

The only way you can produce a 2x teleconverter that
costs less than 2 stops of light is to screw it onto the end
of the lens, a la the (excellent) teleconverters for the
E-10/20.

BTW people have used the E-10/20 teleconverters on
the EOS system with good results. Pretty end-heavy
though!

-joseph

Doug Morgan said:
From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

Peter Galbavy · Mar 6, 2004

AppleCanon said:
If you can invent a 2x teleconverter that sits between the camera
and the lens, and loses less than two stop of light, I'll give you
a million dollars.

I expect that the development costs for a new lens product (perhaps including tele-converters) is near this order of magnitude anyway

AppleCanon said:
A 2x teleconverter necessarily results in your losing 3/4 of the
light; after all, your 2x teleconverter is just throwing out 3/4 of
the image. While they may come out with a new 2x (which I doubt,
because they have a new one that's only a few years old), I can
guarantee you it won't lose less than two stops of light. Just like
I can guarantee you that a 100 mm f/2 lens is going to have a front
element that is at least 50 mm in diameter.

Yes, but.

Yes, but think sideways - what if Canon do silly things with fractional multipliers for x1.3 and x1.6 framing cameras, and call then "2x with more light". Never underestimate marketing. OTOH, pulling in all that extra expensive wasted light from a 400 f/2.8 and making it a "real" 800 f/4.0 while on a x1.3/x1.6 crop camera might be cool. (e.g. as opposed to a 1280mm f/5.6) (f/4.0 is only a guess - I always get my f stops wrong).

Not that there is a difference in my wittering above from simply using a x1.4 converter - I am conjecturing the reduction of the image circle to only work with cropped cameras.

--
Peter Galbavy
http://photasmagoria.com/
Help decode CRW files: http://www.wonderland.org/crw/

KennyG · Mar 6, 2004

Dennis said:
I haven't heard anything, but they have already and correct me if
I'm wrong, recently the series II. I have you one and if I could
get the money back out of it, it would be gone in a flash. It may
work or get by with a big prime, but tele zooms will not work with
it. Most of the time you will find yourself in a manual focus
situation and 2 stops slower. I took mine out of the bag, waste of
weight.

You are using it with the wrong lenses then Dennis. As you lose 2 stops you have to take into account what you are left with when you use it with a particular lens. For the 300D/10D you need F5.6 and for a 1D/1Ds you need F8. I assume you did this calculation before you bought it?

The x2 works well with the 70-200 F2.8 for example. You can even stack it with a x1.4 as only one TC is reported, although quality and AF speed will suffer a bit.

You also need to be aware that with the Canon (and Sigma as well) TC's the lens has to have a suitable recess which means you can't use it with a 75-300 for example.

On my 300 F2.8L IS you can hardly see any drop in quality as the lens design took into account the use of TC's.

--

Kenny

If you really want to know what I shoot with - look under my profile.

RF Cat · Mar 6, 2004

KennyG said:
Dennis said:

I haven't heard anything, but they have already and correct me if
I'm wrong, recently the series II. I have you one and if I could
get the money back out of it, it would be gone in a flash. It may
work or get by with a big prime, but tele zooms will not work with
it. Most of the time you will find yourself in a manual focus
situation and 2 stops slower. I took mine out of the bag, waste of
weight.

Click to expand...

You are using it with the wrong lenses then Dennis. As you lose 2
stops you have to take into account what you are left with when you
use it with a particular lens. For the 300D/10D you need F5.6 and
for a 1D/1Ds you need F8. I assume you did this calculation before
you bought it?

The x2 works well with the 70-200 F2.8 for example. You can even
stack it with a x1.4 as only one TC is reported, although quality
and AF speed will suffer a bit.

You also need to be aware that with the Canon (and Sigma as well)
TC's the lens has to have a suitable recess which means you can't
use it with a 75-300 for example.

On my 300 F2.8L IS you can hardly see any drop in quality as the
lens design took into account the use of TC's.

--

Kenny

If you really want to know what I shoot with - look under my profile.

I have the TC 2x and use it with the my 200mm f2.8L which gives me 400mm 5.6L. The quality is excellent, there is little if any drop in sharpness or contrast. I have only shot hand held at this stage and I am very impressed and most definitely will be keeping the TC 2x.

I get 2 lenses for the price of one, my 200mm f2.8L was second hand. The Canon website shows what will happen on a 200mm f2.8l when you attach a 1.4 or 2.0 and I got what I expected.

--
Ian the RF Cat.

still learning
LOVE MY 10D
need to learn to check spelling and how to type!
http://www.pbase.com/ianm_au
equipment in profile

Ken Phillips · Mar 6, 2004

... due to light loss by absorbtion or reflection. You cannot get any better than a two stop loss, even with [impossible] perfect optics.
Ken

Doug Morgan said:
From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

--

I don't believe in fate, but I do believe in f/8!
http://www.ahomls.com/gallery.htm

Doug Morgan · Mar 6, 2004

I thought he was joking the first time the owner said this to me but he repeated it again yesterday. He's a pro photographer that shoots a 1Ds so it would be topic he's familiar with. Something he saw at PMA but he didn't elaborate. I understand that a normal teleconverter is only going to magnify a section of the image (and use a portion of the light) so, like I said, I at first thought he was joking.

Unless he has some moral objection to selling teleconverters or (more likely) he might have misunderstood something I can't say. I had hoped someone else may have some details, but I guess either there isn't a new teleconverter or it's a well kept secret.

Doug

AppleCanon said:
A 2x teleconverter necessarily results in your losing 3/4 of the
light; after all, your 2x teleconverter is just throwing out 3/4 of
the image. While they may come out with a new 2x (which I doubt,
because they have a new one that's only a few years old), I can
guarantee you it won't lose less than two stops of light. Just like
I can guarantee you that a 100 mm f/2 lens is going to have a front
element that is at least 50 mm in diameter.

Doug Morgan said:

From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

Click to expand...

drip · Mar 6, 2004

Doug Morgan said:
From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

You know, DO can do magic that breaks beyond physical limits ...
--
Brian
Dallas, TX
Still love the Spurs (the Mavs suck)
10D owner and love sharp images.
http://www.pbase.com/drip

Doug Morgan · Mar 6, 2004

It could be something like that, or a filter type deal, or he's a really good planner and is getting ready for April 1. I was hoping someone here might have heard something.

Doug

drip said:
Doug Morgan said:

From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

Click to expand...

You know, DO can do magic that breaks beyond physical limits ...
--
Brian
Dallas, TX
Still love the Spurs (the Mavs suck)
10D owner and love sharp images.
http://www.pbase.com/drip

-jeffB · Mar 6, 2004

Doug Morgan said:
From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Well, since the f/ratio is focal length divided by effective diameter, anything that doubles your focal length has to halve (at least) your f/ratio. The only way around it would be a teleconverter that makes your front element wider.

They might be thinking about a teleconverter that lies to the camera about the f/ratio, thus preventing the camera from disabling auto-focus, but it doesn't seem like the sort of thing Canon would leap to do...

Dean J Kenny · Mar 6, 2004

Doug Morgan said:
From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

I guess Ill Be The First To Answer Your question Doug instead of trying to come up with reasons why and how it it cant be done. My answer is no I havent heard anything but I will say Better is allway good!!

Doug Morgan · Mar 6, 2004

Dean J Kenny said:
Doug Morgan said:

From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

Click to expand...

I guess Ill Be The First To Answer Your question Doug instead of
trying to come up with reasons why and how it it cant be done. My
answer is no I havent heard anything but I will say Better is
allway good!!

Paul Boothroyd · Mar 6, 2004

Doug Morgan said:
From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

-It has been stated why you can't have a 2x Extender that loses less than two stops, 'IT'S ALL TO DO WITH THE LAWS OF PHYSICS'.

Really, if you don't get the relationships which are fixed by the laws of physics and optics then you shouldn't stick your neck out with assertions such as this.

DO technology does do wonderts with the bending and focusing of light - but still operates with the laws of physics and optics.
Paul

Doug Morgan · Mar 6, 2004

I'm not asserting anything. I'm inquiring about something that was passed on to me.

Paul Boothroyd said:
Doug Morgan said:

From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

Click to expand...

-It has been stated why you can't have a 2x Extender that loses
less than two stops, 'IT'S ALL TO DO WITH THE LAWS OF PHYSICS'.
Really, if you don't get the relationships which are fixed by the
laws of physics and optics then you shouldn't stick your neck out
with assertions such as this.
DO technology does do wonderts with the bending and focusing of
light - but still operates with the laws of physics and optics.
Paul

patrik_f · Mar 6, 2004

"Never underestimate marketing. OTOH, pulling in all that extra expensive wasted light from a 400 f/2.8 and making it a "real" 800 f/4.0 while on a x1.3/x1.6 crop camera might be cool."

I can't follow you.

If you "pull in" any light you concentrate the image to a smaller area, thus reversing the exact effect of a TC. Sorry, but a TC spreads the light over a wider area. There is no way the "wasted" ligth can be made any use of -it is part of the image that must be thrown away.

BTW, since a TC is soild as a multiplier, it doesn't matter if it sits on a 35 mm or DSLR. The multiplcation is the same.

Peter Galbavy said:
AppleCanon said:

If you can invent a 2x teleconverter that sits between the camera
and the lens, and loses less than two stop of light, I'll give you
a million dollars.

Click to expand...

I expect that the development costs for a new lens product (perhaps
including tele-converters) is near this order of magnitude anyway

Peter Galbavy said:

A 2x teleconverter necessarily results in your losing 3/4 of the
light; after all, your 2x teleconverter is just throwing out 3/4 of
the image. While they may come out with a new 2x (which I doubt,
because they have a new one that's only a few years old), I can
guarantee you it won't lose less than two stops of light. Just like
I can guarantee you that a 100 mm f/2 lens is going to have a front
element that is at least 50 mm in diameter.

Click to expand...

Yes, but.

Yes, but think sideways - what if Canon do silly things with
fractional multipliers for x1.3 and x1.6 framing cameras, and call
then "2x with more light". Never underestimate marketing. OTOH,
pulling in all that extra expensive wasted light from a 400 f/2.8
and making it a "real" 800 f/4.0 while on a x1.3/x1.6 crop camera
might be cool. (e.g. as opposed to a 1280mm f/5.6) (f/4.0 is only a
guess - I always get my f stops wrong).

Not that there is a difference in my wittering above from simply
using a x1.4 converter - I am conjecturing the reduction of the
image circle to only work with cropped cameras.

--
Peter Galbavy
http://photasmagoria.com/
Help decode CRW files: http://www.wonderland.org/crw/

Dean J Kenny · Mar 6, 2004

Doug Morgan said:
Paul Boothroyd said:

Doug Morgan said:

From the camera shop I was told that Canon is coming out with a new
2x teleconverter that will work better with long slower "L" zooms.
Possibly less than 2 stops of light loss. Anyone heard anything?

Doug

Click to expand...

-It has been stated why you can't have a 2x Extender that loses
less than two stops, 'IT'S ALL TO DO WITH THE LAWS OF PHYSICS'.
Really, if you don't get the relationships which are fixed by the
laws of physics and optics then you shouldn't stick your neck out
with assertions such as this.
DO technology does do wonderts with the bending and focusing of
light - but still operates with the laws of physics and optics.
Paul

Click to expand...

They Said That The Titanic had been proclaimed unsinkable because of its 16 watertight compartments.

Donald Cooper · Mar 6, 2004

And bees couldn't fly! LOL

Yeah, good point. I guess we could come up with a very long list of things done which couldn't be done.

Dean J Kenny said:
They Said That The Titanic had been proclaimed unsinkable because
of its 16 watertight compartments.

New canon 2x teleconverter?

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