Scott Wong
Active member
Theoretically I should be able to use an ND filter to get ISO 100 (so to speak) and still use sync of 1/500, But how do i make S2 shoot iso 100 at 1/500? Or do you wish to compare S2 at iso 200 at 1/125 to D70's 1/500?
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D70 sync speed and S2's - not all that different
- Thread starter majic
- Start date
Anthony,
We are not "overexposing" photos with the S3 - the larger dynamic range means that you will simply have much more "playwidth" which easely should compensate.
My original statement was that the S3 was not designed to be a high fps beast (And cant be, due to its large filesizes) to start with, and that the low ISO compared to cameras with 1/500th shutterspeed (thats the D70 allright) means that effectively you get similar flash power.
Adding to this I later concluded that the huge dynamic range will make exposure a lot easier, and either you dont have to use flash at all, or you can decide to use it anways and the SR sensor captures the highlights just fine. There is no real precedent for the SR sensor except in the form of the F700, and of all what I have seen from it it will be more than capable of handling any kind of highlight issue we can imagine - with or without flash ("over" exposure included).
We are not "overexposing" photos with the S3 - the larger dynamic range means that you will simply have much more "playwidth" which easely should compensate.
My original statement was that the S3 was not designed to be a high fps beast (And cant be, due to its large filesizes) to start with, and that the low ISO compared to cameras with 1/500th shutterspeed (thats the D70 allright) means that effectively you get similar flash power.
Adding to this I later concluded that the huge dynamic range will make exposure a lot easier, and either you dont have to use flash at all, or you can decide to use it anways and the SR sensor captures the highlights just fine. There is no real precedent for the SR sensor except in the form of the F700, and of all what I have seen from it it will be more than capable of handling any kind of highlight issue we can imagine - with or without flash ("over" exposure included).
earthbound_ca
Senior Member
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1/125th second allows 4x the distance travelled due to camera shake versus 1/500th. 1/500th is therefor 4x better. Depending on how unsteady your hand or you subject, I'll take the 4x advantage. It has nothing to do with ISO.
Next, you mention fill flash. Who is talking about fill flash? Did I mention fill flash?
YOUR REBUTTAL IS WEAK. YOUR ORIGINAL POINT IS DRAMATICALLY OVERSTATED: high sync speed is useful for a wide variety of applications... not only sports nor simply for fill flash. YOUR PHOTOGRAPHIC KNOWLEDGE APPEARS COMPARABLE TO YOUR REBUTTAL: WEAK.
PER YOUR ORIGINAL POST WHERE YOU WROTE:
I'm sick and tired of reading the ranting about something that is so completely irrelevant.
MY RESPONSE:
As I wrote earlier, it'll be nice when people stop telling others what they should or should not expect or want from a camera. I'll add that perhaps the ALMIGHTY YOU should learn a little more about photography before the attempting to assess the value of something as relevant or irrelevant... and then have the arrogance to attempt to impose your values on others. That's not "magic", majic, that's BS.
Next, you mention fill flash. Who is talking about fill flash? Did I mention fill flash?
YOUR REBUTTAL IS WEAK. YOUR ORIGINAL POINT IS DRAMATICALLY OVERSTATED: high sync speed is useful for a wide variety of applications... not only sports nor simply for fill flash. YOUR PHOTOGRAPHIC KNOWLEDGE APPEARS COMPARABLE TO YOUR REBUTTAL: WEAK.
PER YOUR ORIGINAL POST WHERE YOU WROTE:
I'm sick and tired of reading the ranting about something that is so completely irrelevant.
MY RESPONSE:
As I wrote earlier, it'll be nice when people stop telling others what they should or should not expect or want from a camera. I'll add that perhaps the ALMIGHTY YOU should learn a little more about photography before the attempting to assess the value of something as relevant or irrelevant... and then have the arrogance to attempt to impose your values on others. That's not "magic", majic, that's BS.
Mike Goebel
Senior Member
I shoot litterally 1000's of soccer and little league baseball players in direct sunlight. (these are team and individual shots) Years ago I used a Hassleblad and could shoot on a bright sunny day at f8 at 1/500. My "fill flash" would last all day.
Now, I have to shoot at 1/125 at f16. My pwer supply is drained very quickly at f16.
Those people who complain that 1/500 sutter speed is a "waste" doesn't have a clue as to what is happening in the world of photography outside his.
http://www.mikegoebel.com
http://www.belmontstudio.photoreflect.com
Now, I have to shoot at 1/125 at f16. My pwer supply is drained very quickly at f16.
Those people who complain that 1/500 sutter speed is a "waste" doesn't have a clue as to what is happening in the world of photography outside his.
--
http://www.mikegoebel.com
http://www.belmontstudio.photoreflect.com
Anthony32599
Veteran Member
Hi Majic--
There is a precedent. It's called film. I do appreciate what you're saying and it does have some merit--the higher ISO of the D70 negates to some extent its higher flash sync speed. However, do not discount the need/desire by some of us to have a high speed flash sync to accomplish a particular task--using a flash in daylight with a wide aperture (the fast aperture necessitating a correspondingly fast shutter speed) to control depth of field.
Anthony
There is a precedent. It's called film. I do appreciate what you're saying and it does have some merit--the higher ISO of the D70 negates to some extent its higher flash sync speed. However, do not discount the need/desire by some of us to have a high speed flash sync to accomplish a particular task--using a flash in daylight with a wide aperture (the fast aperture necessitating a correspondingly fast shutter speed) to control depth of field.
Anthony
Actually you said "thats just one application" , and you neither specified anything - not fill or other types (and hence the contribution of your posting was what..? zero!)
Also CAPSLOCK is considered RUDE and IMMATURE, which confirms the general attitude in your POSTING.
Kindest regards,
Also CAPSLOCK is considered RUDE and IMMATURE, which confirms the general attitude in your POSTING.
Kindest regards,
- majic
earthbound_ca
Senior Member
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You may think I'm rude. You may think I'm immature. I really don't give a rat's a** what you think about me. You know I'm right.
For someone who wrote, "I'm sick and tired of reading the ranting about something that is so completely irrelevant," you sure RANT about something that's, according to you, COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!
Sorry, but no kind regards in this matter to you, sir. Later, in another thread, I'm sure the sentiment will be different... but not here, not now.
For someone who wrote, "I'm sick and tired of reading the ranting about something that is so completely irrelevant," you sure RANT about something that's, according to you, COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!
Sorry, but no kind regards in this matter to you, sir. Later, in another thread, I'm sure the sentiment will be different... but not here, not now.
Masterdeath
Senior Member
I hate when people like majic make a statement when they dont know what they are talking about.. I shoot wedding portraits, I did 2 this last week and the 1/125 shutter was KILLING me the whole time...
I had to shoot at F11 ISO 100... My flash battery died since I HAD TO FIRE it at full power to balance out the sun light.. I dont shoot sports AT ALL, but I NEED higher sync...
I had to shoot at F11 ISO 100... My flash battery died since I HAD TO FIRE it at full power to balance out the sun light.. I dont shoot sports AT ALL, but I NEED higher sync...
Wing88,
Yes I should have made more clear that I ment the "semi working
1/180" of the S2 and the now official 1/180 of the S3. Point was
about the discussions on the S3 anyways, I dont think the S2 has to
prove itself anymore
However your judgement is correct, and I think I should have left
out the S2 all together.
Masterdeath
Senior Member
The ISO base does nothing to diminsh the synce speed.. It does hurt your DOF(meaning you will need a F16 instead of F11)
But, your flash will shoot will not need to shoot as bright to balance out your daylight.,.. let me lay it all out for you here
Lets say ISO 100 needs a Fstop of 11 (sometimes 16)
On the S2 at 1/125 sync you will need to fire your flash at full power from 10 feet to match ISO 100 F11
At 1/500 sync on a ISO 100 ( I know D70 does not have iso 100, this is just an example) You would only need to fire your flash at 1/4 instead of full OR you could fire the flash more often OR also, you could then move your flash futher back..
At 1/500 sync ISO 200 (d70) you would set you F-stop at F16 BUT your flash would still be at 1/4 power...
Better synce saves your batteries OR you can move your flash futher back(or use a softbox)
But, your flash will shoot will not need to shoot as bright to balance out your daylight.,.. let me lay it all out for you here
Lets say ISO 100 needs a Fstop of 11 (sometimes 16)
On the S2 at 1/125 sync you will need to fire your flash at full power from 10 feet to match ISO 100 F11
At 1/500 sync on a ISO 100 ( I know D70 does not have iso 100, this is just an example) You would only need to fire your flash at 1/4 instead of full OR you could fire the flash more often OR also, you could then move your flash futher back..
At 1/500 sync ISO 200 (d70) you would set you F-stop at F16 BUT your flash would still be at 1/4 power...
Better synce saves your batteries OR you can move your flash futher back(or use a softbox)
Masterdeath
Senior Member
UGH, since you can only use 1/125, you are forced (unless you use a ND filter, which then causes their own problems, AF seems more and you get more flare) to use a F11 or F16, the depth of feild is HUGE... I had a bride 15 feet from me the other day and the building was 120 feet.. They BOTH looked in focus... No blur in the background... IF I had 1/500 I could have shot at F5.6 and theirfore would have had LESS depth of feild..
Thats why..
Thats why..
Masterdeath
Senior Member
majic, without getting mean, I dont know how mcuh you really know about light balancing between flash and sun.. It does not matter how much dynamic range a camera has, if the sun is shinning on one side of a persons face and NOT the other side, it will look pretty bad in most cases... You need flash to balance it out.. Even a camera with 50 stop of DR will not fix this...period....
Masterdeath
Senior Member
majic is confused.. A few other of yall are also...
The S2's sync is 1/125.. Ok, just because the BASE iso is 200 does not effect the overall ratio of the flash sync on the S3 compared to the D70..
The ratio is still 4x. You cant figuar in ISO 100 to compare to a ISO 200 camera. You just cant... let say the S2 is set at ISO 200 the sync is still 1/125 and the D70's is stil 1/500... If you have a flash on the ISO 100 1/125 camera it uses a LOT more flash power.. NOW when it comes to Fstop number is does not make as much of a difference.. BUT for proper balancing of sun light it makes a BIG difference
Simple. no matter what iso your running at, the flash needs less power to match the sun light when the sync is set higher
The S2's sync is 1/125.. Ok, just because the BASE iso is 200 does not effect the overall ratio of the flash sync on the S3 compared to the D70..
The ratio is still 4x. You cant figuar in ISO 100 to compare to a ISO 200 camera. You just cant... let say the S2 is set at ISO 200 the sync is still 1/125 and the D70's is stil 1/500... If you have a flash on the ISO 100 1/125 camera it uses a LOT more flash power.. NOW when it comes to Fstop number is does not make as much of a difference.. BUT for proper balancing of sun light it makes a BIG difference
Simple. no matter what iso your running at, the flash needs less power to match the sun light when the sync is set higher
Derrel87035
Senior Member
MD,
Yes, majic's still young....he's probably never had a 1/500th synch speed camera..he can't figure out that the flash use in bright sun is NOT to "stop motion",and his whine has absolutely nothing to do with "sports"....the matter of flash synch speeds seems to be a bit more photographically sophisticated than he seems to be able to grasp...I agree "I hate when people like make a statement when they dont know what they are talking about."
S2 in basic day light @ 1/125sec and ISO 100 will give you F/11 2/3
S3 in basic day light @ 1/180sec and ISO 100 will give you F/11 1/2
D70 in basic day light @ 1/500sec and ISO 200 will give you F/8 2/3
(Not sure what you are talking about this an S3 syncing @ 1/250 it would just cut off the flash exposure from the top of your frame.)
D70 wins this match but is still to high.
Now S3 with a 1/500 sync would give us F/8 in this brave new digital future we should be able to do better but at least this gets us back to what we had in the 20 century with film. Really with the small APS/DX format cameras F5.6 would be better but than my strobes flash duration would come into play so I would rather see ISO 50 instead of a 1/1000 sync.
majic if you are comfortable constantly over exposing the yet to be seen SR sensor by almost a stop and post processing every image you have a point. Not the way I would plan to shoot but to each his own.
Many of us who shoot commercial advertising and many of those who shoot events know the value of this sync feature. Fuji knows it too just look at the Hasselblad H1. If they want to profess the S3 as the quintessential event shooters DSLR they will need to add this feature. I guess they just want to have it be a better than D70/D300 camera and send the rest of us to the D2x or what ever. That’s fine but Fuji is so close to what we want it frustrates us.
I enjoyed the images on your site,
Kraig
S3 in basic day light @ 1/180sec and ISO 100 will give you F/11 1/2
D70 in basic day light @ 1/500sec and ISO 200 will give you F/8 2/3
(Not sure what you are talking about this an S3 syncing @ 1/250 it would just cut off the flash exposure from the top of your frame.)
D70 wins this match but is still to high.
Now S3 with a 1/500 sync would give us F/8 in this brave new digital future we should be able to do better but at least this gets us back to what we had in the 20 century with film. Really with the small APS/DX format cameras F5.6 would be better but than my strobes flash duration would come into play so I would rather see ISO 50 instead of a 1/1000 sync.
majic if you are comfortable constantly over exposing the yet to be seen SR sensor by almost a stop and post processing every image you have a point. Not the way I would plan to shoot but to each his own.
Many of us who shoot commercial advertising and many of those who shoot events know the value of this sync feature. Fuji knows it too just look at the Hasselblad H1. If they want to profess the S3 as the quintessential event shooters DSLR they will need to add this feature. I guess they just want to have it be a better than D70/D300 camera and send the rest of us to the D2x or what ever. That’s fine but Fuji is so close to what we want it frustrates us.
I enjoyed the images on your site,
Kraig
R
Rinus Borgsteede
Guest
Have you noticed that you need to teach people 10 years of experience defore they get this? It really is like pulling teeth trying to make them understand.
I am not above telling anyone but why do they not read all the "before posting". I just cannot be on the web all the time, I do have a job. I know you are also getting a little frustrated and a month from now they start this all over again.
This misunderstanding of the practicality of a high sync is how the Pentax 6x7 with a low price and low sync speed is the first mistake many wedding photographers made and then switched to Hasselblad, Mamiya or Bronica, just for the 1/500 sync. Lack of experience can be a real bummer in the wallet.
Rinus of Calgary
Of course, the S2 is great but not for what Fuji said it was made for. Don,t believe it!
Masterdeath
Senior Member
One of my former camera was a Bronica with a 1/500 leaf shutter.. Loved 1/500 sync.. Bad thing was the camera could not go over 500 LOL
Manta Ray Arts
Senior Member
I'm one of the people very disappointed at the lack of improvement in flash sync speed in the S3 over the S2. It is a practical, every day concern, and I'm not one of your dismissed "wannabe" sports photographers. In bright sunlight with harsh shadows, I need a Neutral Density filter to get the DOF desired on many shots, when fill-flash at 1/500th would be a better alternative. In the studio, it is often difficult to get multiple strobe light sets down to a meter reading of less than f/8, when f/5.6 or 5/4.8 might be more appropriate for the specific focus desired. When this happens I switch to constant light sources with lower, warmer-colored output with the attendant difficulties of working with hot lights (sweating models, melting make up, etc).
To my mind, the increased dynamic range of the S3 will not help in these situations because it would simply capture the extremes in the frame. What helps is removing extremes from the scene (because that is what our eye does naturally--we humans have dynamic, dynamic range). Fill flash and bokeh do help in this regard. Fill flash and bokeh are more of a challenge if the camera has a slower sync speed. Again, not for sports, but for scenes in bright sunlight (you can't always control the weather over what you must shoot) and in the studio (where desired lighting set ups are often at odds with lower F-stops). Yes, I can dial down the lights some and use ND filters, and look for open shade, and ask passers-by to hold diffusion panels when I can't afford an army of assistants and and and and.
Having said all that, I love my S2 and I've made 1/125th work for me after a fashion. I would have preferred that Fuji improve more than to 1/180th, (and a more consident metering and AF system) rather than give me more dynamic range which wasn't a noticeable limiting factor in my everyday work. The fact that a $1000 camera can be made to sync at 1/500th, but the "under $3000" S3 cannot (regardless of the ISO level) seems odd to me. Fuji has concentrated on giving me something I didn't necessarily want in my next camera.
No, I'm not throwing my S2 overboard because I'm stuck with 1/125th. But I'm not buying another body that is similarly limited unless I get something more than dynamic range out of it.
Majic, you've taken umbrage at some of the earlier comments, but I also think you've too easily dismissed the S3's practical problems that remain unaddressed. And for me, I'm waiting for better flash sync before investing in another body. Meanwhile I'll do fine with the S2.
http://www.mantarayarts.com
To my mind, the increased dynamic range of the S3 will not help in these situations because it would simply capture the extremes in the frame. What helps is removing extremes from the scene (because that is what our eye does naturally--we humans have dynamic, dynamic range). Fill flash and bokeh do help in this regard. Fill flash and bokeh are more of a challenge if the camera has a slower sync speed. Again, not for sports, but for scenes in bright sunlight (you can't always control the weather over what you must shoot) and in the studio (where desired lighting set ups are often at odds with lower F-stops). Yes, I can dial down the lights some and use ND filters, and look for open shade, and ask passers-by to hold diffusion panels when I can't afford an army of assistants and and and and.
Having said all that, I love my S2 and I've made 1/125th work for me after a fashion. I would have preferred that Fuji improve more than to 1/180th, (and a more consident metering and AF system) rather than give me more dynamic range which wasn't a noticeable limiting factor in my everyday work. The fact that a $1000 camera can be made to sync at 1/500th, but the "under $3000" S3 cannot (regardless of the ISO level) seems odd to me. Fuji has concentrated on giving me something I didn't necessarily want in my next camera.
No, I'm not throwing my S2 overboard because I'm stuck with 1/125th. But I'm not buying another body that is similarly limited unless I get something more than dynamic range out of it.
Majic, you've taken umbrage at some of the earlier comments, but I also think you've too easily dismissed the S3's practical problems that remain unaddressed. And for me, I'm waiting for better flash sync before investing in another body. Meanwhile I'll do fine with the S2.
--
http://www.mantarayarts.com
Manta Ray Arts
Senior Member
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