What's wrong w/waiting till September?

Desmond Lim · Feb 13, 2004

Majority of KM customers are now range from amature to semi-pro. The pros has long deserted KM, and its won't be easy and the process will be very slow to woo them back (even its possible) as they probably have nice collection for their needs.

KM, serve your loyal customers first, pls.

José B said:
lcmacedo said:

I believe when KM starts selling the 7D they will already have a 9D
on the oven, maybe with the now much requested 8 MP sensor !!
So, I expect another great surprise for 2005!!

... Lucas

Think Positive !!

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure KM will make a digital 9, not sure if it is slated
for 2005 or 2006. I still think though that KM needs to position an
entry-level DSLR to go against the 300D.

Cheers,

José

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

David Goolsby · Feb 13, 2004

The 7 has to set the pace and the 5 will compete with the 300 D and its ilk. By that time, Minolta will have won over some long-lost family members and a few new converts, many of whom will be clamoring for a 9-level model. My guess for the 9 would be summer/fall 2005. The 5 will be released simultaneously or very shortly after the 7.

José B said:
lcmacedo said:

I believe when KM starts selling the 7D they will already have a 9D
on the oven, maybe with the now much requested 8 MP sensor !!
So, I expect another great surprise for 2005!!

... Lucas

Think Positive !!

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure KM will make a digital 9, not sure if it is slated
for 2005 or 2006. I still think though that KM needs to position an
entry-level DSLR to go against the 300D.

Cheers,

José

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

--
David

I shoot people all the time–but I use cameras, not guns!
http://homepage.mac.com/david_g_force

caterpillar · Feb 13, 2004

David,

David Goolsby said:
David Goolsby said:

I tend to agree with JK that all of the other
asics and electronics were designed so that when the time comes, it
would take major reconstructive surgery to pop in a better sensor.

Click to expand...

I meant to say that it WOULD NOT take major reconstructive surgery
to pop in a better sensor.
Sorry for the confusion!

I disagree. But that's cool. This is just a friendly tennis match we are having here. It won't really affect what KM is going to do in reality. ;-)

Because even if you won't change much inside, you still have to test it. And testing it is R&D. And this will cost you time. This will cost you money. This will delay your shipment. This will make your customers angry. You can lose customers if they are angry.

To skip that R&D is courting disaster. To site the the problems in the semicon was the use of new support chips in the early days for the Intel processors. To save money, they did not use the tested Intel support chips (they wanted to cut cost and paying premium to Intel) and decided to go for the 3rd party support chips in the early days of Pentium. Many got burned there with motherboards hanging or seizing. The same episode happened with the early pre-thunderebird and thunderbird ran AMD chips. There were lots of problematic boards, with some overheating and burning the chip. This is an example of not following the specs. It was good on paper, but bad in execution. It is classic example of skipping on the proper R&D when you change parts/specs.

With a faulty dslr, you have may have delivered a product on time, but faulty. Now you have furious customers! They will not just stop buying, they will defect to the other camps!

Anyway, even if there are no problems technically (an unsual case, I assure you), I disagree not primarily on the technical grounds but on the other segments of the value chain.

1. Finance/accounting
2. marketing
3. production/manufacturing
4. logistics/supply chain
5. proper use of R&D
5. business/technology roadmap/strategy.

I have already already discussed this in length, so I won't go into them anymore.

To summarize, you don't change horses in the middle of the stream. If you have to, it better be a good reason (like the horse just died) and you better adjust your timetables, cost/pricing, and inform your customers. Just because as you were crossing the stream you found a new good looking and apparently stronger/fresher horse, you just unhitch your wagon and change horses -- this even if the specs of the horse, harness, and your wagon are within acceptable tolerance.

David Goolsby said:
--
David

I shoot people all the time–but I use cameras, not guns!
http://homepage.mac.com/david_g_force

--
---------------------

Caterpillar

'Always in the process of changing, growing, and transforming.'

David Goolsby · Feb 13, 2004

caterpillar said:
I disagree. But that's cool. This is just a friendly tennis match
we are having here. It won't really affect what KM is going to do
in reality. ;-)

You are absolutely right. Whether the 6MP sensor is set in stone or even if they are doing the testing of the 8MP sensor, KM have their own plan and their own timetable and will let us in on the game in their own sweet time.

Tie-breaker anyone!?!

--
David

I shoot people all the time–but I use cameras, not guns!
http://homepage.mac.com/david_g_force

José B · Feb 13, 2004

on the 7D is the Maxxum 200/2.8!!! It is just like shooting with 300/2.8 on film SLR but lighter, much cheaper and with AS to boot!!!

J

David Goolsby said:
José B said:

lcmacedo said:

I believe when KM starts selling the 7D they will already have a 9D
on the oven, maybe with the now much requested 8 MP sensor !!
So, I expect another great surprise for 2005!!

... Lucas

Think Positive !!

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure KM will make a digital 9, not sure if it is slated
for 2005 or 2006. I still think though that KM needs to position an
entry-level DSLR to go against the 300D.

Cheers,

José

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

Click to expand...

--
David

I shoot people all the time–but I use cameras, not guns!
http://homepage.mac.com/david_g_force

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

fsw · Feb 13, 2004

I fully agree. Take away those two ridiculously priced SSM Minolta lenses, and your "strategy may backfire" lens price comparison in favor of Canon shifts dramatically.

Also, there's a cheap market right now in good used Minolta glass right now. I don't know if it will last, if non-Minoltans start buying up used lenses to couple with the digital 7 when it arrives.

I, for one, think the digital 7 with the AS feature alone will prove attractive to new users, because any lens they buy gets AS. If you select lenses judiciously, you can really do well. Personally I have mostly new Minolta lenses, but I've also bought from KEH and wouldn't hesitate to at all. They have an impeccible reputation.

I just checked keh.com and found, for example:

16mm fisheye, excellent condition: $465
24mm/2.8, excellent: $133
24-105mm, excellent: plus: $265
50mm/1.4, excellent plus: $189 (imagine this with 1.5x crop factor!)
50mm/1.7, excellent plus: $45 (for us thriftier folks)
70-210mm/4 macro, excellent plus: $133 (a superb lens)
80-200mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $569
100-300mm/4.5/5.6 APO, excellent: $205
135mm/2.8, excellent: $133 (a great lens!)
200mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $449
300mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $1,799
300mm/4 APO, excellent plus: $669
500mm/8 reflex, excellent: $275

KEH rates its used equipment conservatively, anyone will tell you. A newcomer to the DSLRs could do quite well selecting from these and have an AS repertoire very reasonably. Same goes for buying new, just be selective.

Oh, and don't forget teleconverters.. KEH has the Maxxum 1.4x APO, excellent, for $199.
fsw

I belcmacedo said:
Having a 7D body with AS, you may not need those expensive Minolta
SSM lenses.
...Lucas

Desmond Lim · Feb 13, 2004

Jose, I saw a few 200/2.8 in KEH.com about USD 500-600?. But I hope to get one 70/80 - 200 f2.8 first.. probably the sigma you owned. Minolta is too expensive for me.

Hmm.. I've caught in between...

José B said:
J

David Goolsby said:

José B said:

lcmacedo said:

I believe when KM starts selling the 7D they will already have a 9D
on the oven, maybe with the now much requested 8 MP sensor !!
So, I expect another great surprise for 2005!!

... Lucas

Think Positive !!

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure KM will make a digital 9, not sure if it is slated
for 2005 or 2006. I still think though that KM needs to position an
entry-level DSLR to go against the 300D.

Cheers,

José

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

Click to expand...

--
David

I shoot people all the time–but I use cameras, not guns!
http://homepage.mac.com/david_g_force

Click to expand...

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

JCDoss · Feb 13, 2004

I think Jose is right... it'll go 7 > 5 > 9, but they better have all three in some phase of design or (better yet) testing. I'd expect to see all three in two years after the release of the 7 (which will be three years from now).

Here's a question for you: I see lots of talk of full frame being great, and AS being great. Which would you rather see in your 9? I don't see how you're going to get both.

lcmacedo said:
I believe when KM starts selling the 7D they will already have a 9D
on the oven, maybe with the now much requested 8 MP sensor !!
So, I expect another great surprise for 2005!!

... Lucas

Think Positive !!

--
JCDoss

José B · Feb 13, 2004

when it comes to noiseless pictures, which images look better the 10D or 1Ds? Is it true that the 10D beats the 1Ds in this reqard----granted of course, we're talking about prints no bigger than 11 x 14?

I really don't know because I don't expect Konica Minolta to come out with a digital 9 until PMA 2006. That being the case, I will have to go FF.

What about you? That 1DII looks really sweet, except for the price

Have a nice weekend Jason.

José

JCDoss said:
Here's a question for you: I see lots of talk of full frame being
great, and AS being great. Which would you rather see in your 9?
I don't see how you're going to get both.

lcmacedo said:

I believe when KM starts selling the 7D they will already have a 9D
on the oven, maybe with the now much requested 8 MP sensor !!
So, I expect another great surprise for 2005!!

... Lucas

Think Positive !!

Click to expand...

--
JCDoss

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

José B · Feb 13, 2004

[text snipped]

fsw said:
I, for one, think the digital 7 with the AS feature alone will
prove attractive to new users, because any lens they buy gets AS.
If you select lenses judiciously, you can really do well.
Personally I have mostly new Minolta lenses, but I've also bought
from KEH and wouldn't hesitate to at all. They have an impeccible
reputation.

Same here, I got my Maxxum 300/4 there.

fsw said:
I just checked keh.com and found, for example:

16mm fisheye, excellent condition: $465
24mm/2.8, excellent: $133
24-105mm, excellent: plus: $265
50mm/1.4, excellent plus: $189 (imagine this with 1.5x crop factor!)
50mm/1.7, excellent plus: $45 (for us thriftier folks)
70-210mm/4 macro, excellent plus: $133 (a superb lens)
80-200mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $569
100-300mm/4.5/5.6 APO, excellent: $205
135mm/2.8, excellent: $133 (a great lens!)
200mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $449
300mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $1,799
300mm/4 APO, excellent plus: $669
500mm/8 reflex, excellent: $275

Man, that 200/2.8 will look sweet on that 7D w/AS! Also, it is not on the list but I heard that the 28-135 is almost a G and has cult following.

fsw said:
KEH rates its used equipment conservatively, anyone will tell you.
A newcomer to the DSLRs could do quite well selecting from these
and have an AS repertoire very reasonably. Same goes for buying
new, just be selective.

Oh, and don't forget teleconverters.. KEH has the Maxxum 1.4x APO,
excellent, for $199.
fsw

I belcmacedo said:

Having a 7D body with AS, you may not need those expensive Minolta
SSM lenses.
...Lucas

Click to expand...

--

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

David Goolsby · Feb 13, 2004

If we are to trust the timetable Minolta has given I should have enough to buy the Digital 7 AND the 70-200 SSM. But I have been ACHING for the 400/2.8, all I have to do is find someone willing to let me take out a $100,000 life insurance police on them and then.....OK, I'm just kidding but the 400/2.8 would be a really nice addition to have.

José B said:
J

David Goolsby said:

José B said:

lcmacedo said:

I believe when KM starts selling the 7D they will already have a 9D
on the oven, maybe with the now much requested 8 MP sensor !!
So, I expect another great surprise for 2005!!

... Lucas

Think Positive !!

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure KM will make a digital 9, not sure if it is slated
for 2005 or 2006. I still think though that KM needs to position an
entry-level DSLR to go against the 300D.

Cheers,

José

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

Click to expand...

--
David

I shoot people all the time–but I use cameras, not guns!
http://homepage.mac.com/david_g_force

Click to expand...

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

--
David

I shoot people all the time–but I use cameras, not guns!
http://homepage.mac.com/david_g_force

David Goolsby · Feb 13, 2004

By the time the 9 rolls off the assembly line AS technology will have matured to the point that it is doable with a full-frame sensor. However at this stage, I don't know if I personally would be interested in a full-frame unit. But we'll see what happens 2-3 years down the road when it will be time to upgrade to a newer DSLR, I may just change my mind.

When I think about it upgrading after only 2 years is a scary proposition after purchasing a product that in all likelihood will cost me at least $1500 for the body alone. Remember when the Maxxum 9 cost nearly that much? I doubt anyone was planning on dumping it after just 2 years back then.

JCDoss said:
Here's a question for you: I see lots of talk of full frame being
great, and AS being great. Which would you rather see in your 9?
I don't see how you're going to get both.

lcmacedo said:

I believe when KM starts selling the 7D they will already have a 9D
on the oven, maybe with the now much requested 8 MP sensor !!
So, I expect another great surprise for 2005!!

... Lucas

Think Positive !!

Click to expand...

--
JCDoss

--
David

I shoot people all the time–but I use cameras, not guns!
http://homepage.mac.com/david_g_force

fsw · Feb 13, 2004

Jose,

I agree. I have both the 200/2.8 and 300/4 APOs and can't wait to try them digitally. They will be a very very compact telephoto combo, especially with the Minolta 1.4x converter and the Kenko Pro 300 2x converter.

If there's one sleeper lens I would suggest of the KEH list, it's the 70-210mm/4 Macro. It's a discontinued lens that yes has cult following. It's shaped oddly, like a Coke can! But oh is it sharp. And f/4 all the way across the zoom range. Add a crop factor, and add a 1.4x converter, and it's a super-light lens that can take you far. Not quite as compact and light as having a 7Hi or A1 or A2, but not at all unwieldy ... and DSLR!
fsw

José B said:
José B said:

I, for one, think the digital 7 with the AS feature alone will
prove attractive to new users, because any lens they buy gets AS.
If you select lenses judiciously, you can really do well.
Personally I have mostly new Minolta lenses, but I've also bought
from KEH and wouldn't hesitate to at all. They have an impeccible
reputation.

Click to expand...

Same here, I got my Maxxum 300/4 there.

José B said:

I just checked keh.com and found, for example:

16mm fisheye, excellent condition: $465
24mm/2.8, excellent: $133
24-105mm, excellent: plus: $265
50mm/1.4, excellent plus: $189 (imagine this with 1.5x crop factor!)
50mm/1.7, excellent plus: $45 (for us thriftier folks)
70-210mm/4 macro, excellent plus: $133 (a superb lens)
80-200mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $569
100-300mm/4.5/5.6 APO, excellent: $205
135mm/2.8, excellent: $133 (a great lens!)
200mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $449
300mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $1,799
300mm/4 APO, excellent plus: $669
500mm/8 reflex, excellent: $275

Click to expand...

Man, that 200/2.8 will look sweet on that 7D w/AS! Also, it is not
on the list but I heard that the 28-135 is almost a G and has cult
following.

José B said:

KEH rates its used equipment conservatively, anyone will tell you.
A newcomer to the DSLRs could do quite well selecting from these
and have an AS repertoire very reasonably. Same goes for buying
new, just be selective.

Oh, and don't forget teleconverters.. KEH has the Maxxum 1.4x APO,
excellent, for $199.
fsw

I belcmacedo said:

Having a 7D body with AS, you may not need those expensive Minolta
SSM lenses.
...Lucas

Click to expand...

--

Click to expand...

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

fsw · Feb 13, 2004

Incidentally, Jose,

I suspect the KEH Minolta used-lens market will dry up quickly, once the digital 7 is available. Bargain-hunters will scoop up those cheap AS lenses. That said, Minolta's lens prices are most reasonable, other than the two new SSM lenses. Maybe, once there is a market for the SSM lenses, KM will make them reasonable, since there will be more of a buyer pool, and of course we may see new KM lenses introduced this fall with the release of the digital 7.
fsw

fsw said:
I agree. I have both the 200/2.8 and 300/4 APOs and can't wait to
try them digitally. They will be a very very compact telephoto
combo, especially with the Minolta 1.4x converter and the Kenko Pro
300 2x converter.

If there's one sleeper lens I would suggest of the KEH list, it's
the 70-210mm/4 Macro. It's a discontinued lens that yes has cult
following. It's shaped oddly, like a Coke can! But oh is it sharp.
And f/4 all the way across the zoom range. Add a crop factor, and
add a 1.4x converter, and it's a super-light lens that can take you
far. Not quite as compact and light as having a 7Hi or A1 or A2,
but not at all unwieldy ... and DSLR!
fsw

José B said:

fsw said:

I, for one, think the digital 7 with the AS feature alone will
prove attractive to new users, because any lens they buy gets AS.
If you select lenses judiciously, you can really do well.
Personally I have mostly new Minolta lenses, but I've also bought
from KEH and wouldn't hesitate to at all. They have an impeccible
reputation.

Click to expand...

Same here, I got my Maxxum 300/4 there.

fsw said:

I just checked keh.com and found, for example:

16mm fisheye, excellent condition: $465
24mm/2.8, excellent: $133
24-105mm, excellent: plus: $265
50mm/1.4, excellent plus: $189 (imagine this with 1.5x crop factor!)
50mm/1.7, excellent plus: $45 (for us thriftier folks)
70-210mm/4 macro, excellent plus: $133 (a superb lens)
80-200mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $569
100-300mm/4.5/5.6 APO, excellent: $205
135mm/2.8, excellent: $133 (a great lens!)
200mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $449
300mm/2.8 APO, excellent: $1,799
300mm/4 APO, excellent plus: $669
500mm/8 reflex, excellent: $275

Click to expand...

Man, that 200/2.8 will look sweet on that 7D w/AS! Also, it is not
on the list but I heard that the 28-135 is almost a G and has cult
following.

fsw said:

KEH rates its used equipment conservatively, anyone will tell you.
A newcomer to the DSLRs could do quite well selecting from these
and have an AS repertoire very reasonably. Same goes for buying
new, just be selective.

Oh, and don't forget teleconverters.. KEH has the Maxxum 1.4x APO,
excellent, for $199.
fsw

I belcmacedo said:

Having a 7D body with AS, you may not need those expensive Minolta
SSM lenses.
...Lucas

Click to expand...

--

Click to expand...

--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

Click to expand...

--

JCDoss · Feb 13, 2004

José B said:
when it comes to noiseless pictures, which images look better the
10D or 1Ds? Is it true that the 10D beats the 1Ds in this
reqard----granted of course, we're talking about prints no bigger
than 11 x 14?

Frankly, since the 1Ds is priced so astronomically high, I have never seriously examined images from it! I do know that pretty much every DSLR on the market today is essentially clean as a whistle up to ISO 400. I was impressed a few weeks ago with this test, however...

http://www.tow.com/photogallery/20040130_iso/

This article pits the 6MP 10D vs the 4MP 1D at high ISO in low light. I was surprised to see that the 1D won handily. The 1D exhibited more of a fine grain (which is actually pleasing in some instances), whereas the 10D seemed to produce coarse, sometimes blotchy color noise. That said, both handled noise quite well with no evidence of pattern noise (banding), which in my opinion is a deal breaker.

Apparently, 1DII high ISO photos that have been leaked onto the web are simply annihilating anything available right now, but we'll have to see if that's for real when the camera is tested.

José B said:
What about you? That 1DII looks really sweet, except for the price

The 1DII is almost perfect except for a couple things:
Price (for me and most amateurs)
Weight

I don't really need the bullet-proofing either, so that's pretty much wasted on me. I don't mind the built-in portrait grip, as I use mine on the D30 pretty much permanently, but in terms of weight, D30 + grip + 2 batteries weighs less than 1D with no batteries! That's a little much. I'm a wuss, you know!

Are you a grip-always-on person, or do you shoot without the grip on your 7?

I really, really, REALLY wish Minolta could have cranked out the M7D this spring, but I just can't wait for it. I ordered the Sigma 180/3.5 this afternoon, and I'll probably go for the 120-300/2.8 next month. Would have been sweet to have AS for these lenses, but alas, it wasn't to be.

I'm glad you and most of the other die-hards on here have a back-up plan too. I can't wait to see you guys trucking around with your new gear. Just a word of advice, though... when testing your new DSLR or new lenses, don't count on your cat to be a willing subject. Your dog might cooperate, though! ;-)

--
JCDoss

JCDoss · Feb 13, 2004

David Goolsby said:
By the time the 9 rolls off the assembly line AS technology will
have matured to the point that it is doable with a full-frame
sensor.

I don't know how they can keep the sensor in the light path and move it at the same time. I guess it could be possible, but I would expect that vignetting would be more of a problem.

David Goolsby said:
However at this stage, I don't know if I personally would
be interested in a full-frame unit. But we'll see what happens 2-3
years down the road when it will be time to upgrade to a newer
DSLR, I may just change my mind.

I'm not fond of full-frame at all. 1.3x is a pretty good compromise, but frankly, the only problem I have with 1.6x (or 1.5x) is the fact that the viewfinder is too small. It's somewhat puzzling why nobody has attempted to build a magnifier into the viewfinder.

David Goolsby said:
When I think about it upgrading after only 2 years is a scary
proposition after purchasing a product that in all likelihood will
cost me at least $1500 for the body alone. Remember when the Maxxum
9 cost nearly that much? I doubt anyone was planning on dumping it
after just 2 years back then.

You never know what prices will be like for NEW products in two years. Heck, three years ago, I paid almost $3K for my D30, and three years before that, the cheapest DSLR was somewhere in the $25K range.

--
JCDoss

David Goolsby · Feb 13, 2004

JCDoss said:
David Goolsby said:

By the time the 9 rolls off the assembly line AS technology will
have matured to the point that it is doable with a full-frame
sensor.

Click to expand...

I don't know how they can keep the sensor in the light path and
move it at the same time. I guess it could be possible, but I
would expect that vignetting would be more of a problem.

The vignetting issue (if there is one at that point in time) could be solved by borrowing the solution used by Olympus with the E-1. It uses feedback from the lens to eliminate the problem. I'm not too clear on the technical aspects of it but it appears to work as I have never seen vignetting in any shot from an E-1. José may be able to vouch for me on this one.

Member said:
Member said:

However at this stage, I don't know if I personally would
be interested in a full-frame unit. But we'll see what happens 2-3
years down the road when it will be time to upgrade to a newer
DSLR, I may just change my mind.

Click to expand...

I'm not fond of full-frame at all. 1.3x is a pretty good
compromise, but frankly, the only problem I have with 1.6x (or
1.5x) is the fact that the viewfinder is too small. It's somewhat
puzzling why nobody has attempted to build a magnifier into the
viewfinder.

If they hold true to the spirit of the film version of the Maxxum 7, we won't have to worry about a small, dim viewfinder!

Member said:
Member said:

When I think about it upgrading after only 2 years is a scary
proposition after purchasing a product that in all likelihood will
cost me at least $1500 for the body alone. Remember when the Maxxum
9 cost nearly that much? I doubt anyone was planning on dumping it
after just 2 years back then.

Click to expand...

You never know what prices will be like for NEW products in two
years. Heck, three years ago, I paid almost $3K for my D30, and
three years before that, the cheapest DSLR was somewhere in the
$25K range.

Somehow I don't think any DSLR that isn't dumbed down (like the 300D) will be priced below $1000 for a couple of years. We (all DSLR users and wannabe users ;-) are lemmings rushing to jump off a cliff and the manufacturers know it. They'll just keep adding features to keep the price point up. Oh, and as far as I'm concerned pricing it at $999 or $997 doesn't do me any favors. Just how much change do people expect to get back from a $1000 bill (figuratively)? These days it barely gets you 2 gallons of gas. :-D

Member said:
--
JCDoss

--
David

I shoot people all the time–but I use cameras, not guns!
http://homepage.mac.com/david_g_force

Craig Gillette · Feb 13, 2004

caterpillar said:
Craig Gillette said:

to shoot the engineers and go into production." I've been in
configuration management and a good part of that was supporting or
running change boards. Getting an item into volume production is
really far more complex than most people realize. Every time you
change a design feature, especially a major feature or goal, it
ripples. Hopefully the ripples can be controlled.

Click to expand...

Thank you, Craig. I am not into this type of production. But my
friends and classmates in grad school were (working for Intel,
mitsubishi, ericcson, etc). My teacher in TQM is also a top mgr at
a large semi con company here, so I know, even if I am not an
engineer what it takes to produce something. We have also visited a
manufacturing plant and seen for ourselves how things are
manufactured and the problems involved. I also have 4 years
experience in logistics mg't in Saudi Arabia working for the Saudi
Ordnance under American standards, so logistics is a big thing for
me.

You are right. It is complex and if I may add, it can be beautiful
at how, if things are done right, the execution is like a top class
ballet act but on a manufacturing line. And you are also right, to
put it mildly, "it ripples." I have seen people lose their jobs en
masse (an entire dept) for a bungling in logistics (I won't mention
the company, sorry).

--
---------------------

Caterpillar

'Always in the process of changing, growing, and transforming.'

One of the temptations is trying to get the most current product out there, but with technologies advancing or changing at different rates, that's often an unreachable ideal. And at the least cost! I worked in defense aerospace for quite a few years and even once in production pooh happens - a component ceases to be available and there are no replacements out there, maybe a different shape is or it's just obsolete and there is nothing close. The longer a line runs or the longer a product is supposed to be supportable, the more complex the problems become.

Phillip Bonfiglio · Feb 13, 2004

José B said:
I'm pretty sure KM will make a digital 9, not sure if it is slated
for 2005 or 2006. I still think though that KM needs to position an
entry-level DSLR to go against the 300D.

Cheers,

José

That's were Minolta marketing comes in, by the time the 9 comes out, the price of the 7 will have dropped to entry level $

José B said:
--
Come and visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56

pramarko · Feb 14, 2004

splugnut said:
There's also another problem and that is that KM are probably
assuming that this will draw new people into the KM System rather
than merely relying on existing customers. Now, on the specs
released at present, this thing looks to be targetted at the
EOS10D/Nikon D100 segment, so around £1200..ish here in the UK. An
equivalently priced film body is the EOS 1v or Dynax 9 (ok slightly
lower but same ball park). Now, people who spend that much on a
body, spend far more on lenses and want seriously good glass to go
with it. So lets do a system comparison based around high spec
lenses covering 20mm to pseudo-600mm (i.e. 300 + 2x converter)

Ok lets go shopping, I checked the prices for equivalent lenses
from Canon and Minolta incorporating IS and USM/SSM where
available. The lenses chosen were as follows:

20mm F2.8
24/28-70mm F2.8
70-200/210mm F2.8
85mm (portraits)
300mm 2.8
2 X TC

Not an uncommon setup amongst those willing to spend £1000 plus on
a body, just take a wander around the message boards you'll find
plenty of folks with this and more.

So lets look at the comparative prices between canon and minolta.
I've just looked through a reputable, well priced mail order
retailer here in the UK and for the little glass collection above
the total price for our shopping trip is as follows:

Canon = £8060 (oooh...expensive!)

Minolta = £9768 (WHAT!!!)

So if I started shopping today, with no pre-existing commitment to
either brand I could buy that range of lenses in Canon top notch
glass + an EOS 10D and still have change for a couple of flash
guns. Alternatively, with Minolta I could buy the glass - just the
glass - and have nothing to attach it to. In order to equal what
the competition offers Minolta are going to have to PAY US to own
their DSLR. OK so with a seventeen hundred pound difference in
street prices before we've bought a body, lets add in the minolta
body and be very optimistic and say the rough prices quoted on the
web by retailers are correct at around £1000-£1400. That means
that for a fraction over the total price of the Minolta system, we
can get the Canon glass plus an EOS 1D MK11 which at 8.25mpix and 8
frames per second, plus hard-as-nails, pro spec body makes minoltas
offering look like a waste of time. Oh and of course, you can buy
the entire Canon setup in two months time rather than 10 months
(fall/autumn ends in december!).

For existing users this body makes some sense, for new entrants to
the KM world, sorry but it doesn't. To balance out the equation, KM
have 2 choices, either up the spec of the body (by a lot!!) and get
it here quicker or drop the price of the glass, especially the
ridiculously overpriced SSM stuff which is where most of the price
difference occurs.

The 3. option: buy Minolta stuf in some other shop which has lower Minolta prices.

splugnut said:
Ok, there is the arguement that the Minolta body incorporates
anti-shake, but as I've demonstrated above, the system price
difference kills any advantage that would give you. All of the
Canon lenses above in the focal lengths where shake is a problem
have IS anyway. for the shorter (
unless you really fancy hand holding for a 20 second exposure of a
nighttime available light city-scape for which you'd use a tripod
anyway.

Sorry minolta, too little,too late.

What's wrong w/waiting till September?

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