Fuji's arrogance telltale of its demise

Michael Grøn · Feb 13, 2004

At the risk of being labelled a racist, I believe that Fuj's attitude to its otherwise loyal customer base is arrogant - maybe it is Japanese tradition.

They behave as if there is no need for development having already won the war with S2, ignoring reasonable customer request for workable software, problems with back/front focussing, repair turnaround times, etc., etc.

I so wished the S3 to be more, but at best is a minor step forward and at worst at large step backwards (Fuji has already had bad reviews on their SR CCD in another camera) - are they about to repeat the 14n story.

I believe that Thom predicted that only 3 would survive as leading suppliers of digital SLR systems. Reading the reports from Shoenfeld and others from the PMA, I am certain that Fuji will not be among the survivors.

I think Kodak is stepping in to take its place. Kodak has realised that film is dead, and will go all the way to take its place in the digital future. As opposed to Fuji's attitude, Kodak is apparently listening (perhaps they are more customer-oriented) to its clients.

With the DCS/n, Kodak is showing that you can take the N/F80 base and make a rugged body around it. They have listened to their clients' reports and repeated posted firmware upgrades to resolve problems.

They now even offer existing 14n users an in-camera upgrade making it compatible with the new DCS/n. See that is interesting - creating cameras that can be upgraded - not only the firmware, but also the hardware.

Kodak developed an entirely new sensor from scratch, and they must be pretty confident that this time they can deliver the unfulfilled promises of the 14n.

Perhaps Fuji is stuck with a sensor that is not readily capable of improvement. What surely was the sensor of the day 2 or 3 years ago, is today perhaps a blind alley.

Of course only time can tell whether the SR sensor is worth it, but when and at what cost. Hiding the S3 in a glass box does not promise well. So maybe next year, by which time Kodak will have taken over many S2 users and have upgraded hard and firmware to leave Fuji with no clients, biting the dust. But then Fuji still has its film business!

Taking a look at the Kodak DCS/n, I believe that camerawise, this offers many of the features on the wishlist of S2 users for the S3 and if the quality of the images live up to expectations, Fuji has not only shot itself in the foot (or more likely committed seppuku or harakiri) , but killed off a large loyal customer base, who will no longer tolerate its arrogant attitude.

All this does not make the S2 a lesser camera - and someday, historians will look back on this product as a great interlude in the evolution of digital SLR.

Regards Michael

see ya' · Feb 13, 2004

You might as well be discussing elves and fairies, as you've never seen them either. By the way, your opening line was about as prejudice as you can get.

Michael Grøn · Feb 13, 2004

bobbuilder said:
You might as well be discussing elves and fairies, as you've never
seen them either. By the way, your opening line was about as
prejudice as you can get.

What elves and fairies?

I have seen the DSR/n and the images it can produce. But as for the S3, you are right - I have not seen it and why - because it exist only in the mind of Fuji.

Maybe not the most PC comment, I ever posted, but to be true, I believe it sums up many of the frustrations aired by posters here and in other forums. The point (if rather clumsily put) is that this may be a cultural phenomenon.

Regards Michael

Donsta · Feb 13, 2004

You think Fuji has problems? I suggest you take your narrow minded attitudes about ethnic diversity and keep them to yourself.

If you think Fuji is economically dependant on the S2 you are sadly mistaken - do a little research into Fuji's complete product lines - their photographic business as a whole is quite a small part... I would suggest that they will outlive you... your pathetic ethnic bias has little place in this day and age and may it be your downfall.

Michael Grøn said:
At the risk of being labelled a racist, I believe that Fuj's
attitude to its otherwise loyal customer base is arrogant - maybe
it is Japanese tradition.

They behave as if there is no need for development having already
won the war with S2, ignoring reasonable customer request for
workable software, problems with back/front focussing, repair
turnaround times, etc., etc.

I so wished the S3 to be more, but at best is a minor step forward
and at worst at large step backwards (Fuji has already had bad
reviews on their SR CCD in another camera) - are they about to
repeat the 14n story.

I believe that Thom predicted that only 3 would survive as leading
suppliers of digital SLR systems. Reading the reports from
Shoenfeld and others from the PMA, I am certain that Fuji will not
be among the survivors.

I think Kodak is stepping in to take its place. Kodak has realised
that film is dead, and will go all the way to take its place in the
digital future. As opposed to Fuji's attitude, Kodak is apparently
listening (perhaps they are more customer-oriented) to its clients.

With the DCS/n, Kodak is showing that you can take the N/F80 base
and make a rugged body around it. They have listened to their
clients' reports and repeated posted firmware upgrades to resolve
problems.

They now even offer existing 14n users an in-camera upgrade making
it compatible with the new DCS/n. See that is interesting -
creating cameras that can be upgraded - not only the firmware, but
also the hardware.

Kodak developed an entirely new sensor from scratch, and they must
be pretty confident that this time they can deliver the unfulfilled
promises of the 14n.

Perhaps Fuji is stuck with a sensor that is not readily capable of
improvement. What surely was the sensor of the day 2 or 3 years
ago, is today perhaps a blind alley.

Of course only time can tell whether the SR sensor is worth it, but
when and at what cost. Hiding the S3 in a glass box does not
promise well. So maybe next year, by which time Kodak will have
taken over many S2 users and have upgraded hard and firmware to
leave Fuji with no clients, biting the dust. But then Fuji still
has its film business!

Taking a look at the Kodak DCS/n, I believe that camerawise, this
offers many of the features on the wishlist of S2 users for the S3
and if the quality of the images live up to expectations, Fuji has
not only shot itself in the foot (or more likely committed seppuku
or harakiri) , but killed off a large loyal customer base, who will
no longer tolerate its arrogant attitude.

All this does not make the S2 a lesser camera - and someday,
historians will look back on this product as a great interlude in
the evolution of digital SLR.

Regards Michael

Michael Grøn · Feb 13, 2004

Donsta said:
You think Fuji has problems? I suggest you take your narrow minded
attitudes about ethnic diversity and keep them to yourself.

If you think Fuji is economically dependant on the S2 you are sadly
mistaken - do a little research into Fuji's complete product lines

their photographic business as a whole is quite a small part... I

would suggest that they will outlive you... your pathetic ethnic
bias has little place in this day and age and may it be your
downfall.

To Donsta

Let me first apologise for my comments as they are stated - it was not meant as ethnic prejudice - but cultural differences - and in that respect I may be biassed as I do not always understand the Japanese way (my fault). But then again, it may not be Japanese (as Canon also Japanese apparently listen to their customers), but more a company attitude on Fuji's part.

Yes, I am sure that Fuji as a company will survive - I am no longer sure that they will as a top 3 DSLR supplier.

To all others

My apologies to any Japanese or other ethnic group, for any offence that my original posting has caused

Regards Michael

JM Porter · Feb 13, 2004

Jim writes: I am not going to argue with you but I will share some items of interest with you. It has been argued and cussed and discussed until we are all blue in the face but I will standby what I have been preaching. Nikon has refused to sell Fuji and Kodak any more advanced cameras than the N70/75/80 (whichever) . Some have said Nikon would sell anything they have to Fuji or Kodak but I disagree. If Nikon sells Fuji a F100 chassis and the guts to go inside and all fuji has to do is throw a sensor and their decals on the outside, Nikon would appear to their shareholders and customers as holding back technology. Fuji does not have a camera body that they could put more guts into and still use Nikon glass. Fuji scr*wed the pooch with their last Canon/Fuji collaboration. Michael, I would have loved to see more out of Fuji but I am just afraid the blame lies at the feet of the camera body supplier. As for showing the camera in a clear box, this practice has been done for years in the camera business. The S3 prototype at PMA obviously wasn't working so instead of people handling a non-working prototype and reporting what was wrong with it, they put it under glass and tell everyone "All is Well and See Ya in September" I think we are all a little disappointed that Fuji has has almost 2 years to blow us away with super duper ring dang doo technology but it didn't happen. JP

Michael Grøn said:
At the risk of being labelled a racist, I believe that Fuj's
attitude to its otherwise loyal customer base is arrogant - maybe
it is Japanese tradition.

They behave as if there is no need for development having already
won the war with S2, ignoring reasonable customer request for
workable software, problems with back/front focussing, repair
turnaround times, etc., etc.

I so wished the S3 to be more, but at best is a minor step forward
and at worst at large step backwards (Fuji has already had bad
reviews on their SR CCD in another camera) - are they about to
repeat the 14n story.

I believe that Thom predicted that only 3 would survive as leading
suppliers of digital SLR systems. Reading the reports from
Shoenfeld and others from the PMA, I am certain that Fuji will not
be among the survivors.

I think Kodak is stepping in to take its place. Kodak has realised
that film is dead, and will go all the way to take its place in the
digital future. As opposed to Fuji's attitude, Kodak is apparently
listening (perhaps they are more customer-oriented) to its clients.

With the DCS/n, Kodak is showing that you can take the N/F80 base
and make a rugged body around it. They have listened to their
clients' reports and repeated posted firmware upgrades to resolve
problems.

They now even offer existing 14n users an in-camera upgrade making
it compatible with the new DCS/n. See that is interesting -
creating cameras that can be upgraded - not only the firmware, but
also the hardware.

Kodak developed an entirely new sensor from scratch, and they must
be pretty confident that this time they can deliver the unfulfilled
promises of the 14n.

Perhaps Fuji is stuck with a sensor that is not readily capable of
improvement. What surely was the sensor of the day 2 or 3 years
ago, is today perhaps a blind alley.

Of course only time can tell whether the SR sensor is worth it, but
when and at what cost. Hiding the S3 in a glass box does not
promise well. So maybe next year, by which time Kodak will have
taken over many S2 users and have upgraded hard and firmware to
leave Fuji with no clients, biting the dust. But then Fuji still
has its film business!

Taking a look at the Kodak DCS/n, I believe that camerawise, this
offers many of the features on the wishlist of S2 users for the S3
and if the quality of the images live up to expectations, Fuji has
not only shot itself in the foot (or more likely committed seppuku
or harakiri) , but killed off a large loyal customer base, who will
no longer tolerate its arrogant attitude.

All this does not make the S2 a lesser camera - and someday,
historians will look back on this product as a great interlude in
the evolution of digital SLR.

Regards Michael

Venicia L · Feb 13, 2004

The hysteria in this forum regarding Fuji's "failure" to have a working product at PMA, it's "failure" to respond to suggestions, it's "failure" to support its 'loyal' customers, its "failure" to have a competitive product while all the other manufacturers are knocking themselves out is incredible, silly and verging on psychotic. Fuji's demise? What a joke!

Fuji will have a new product out when it's ready. It will have the features it will have. Period. Those here who "just can't wait wait any longer and are going to buy something else RIGHT NOW!!!!, go right ahead. If you need a new piece of equipment to do a job, and something exists to satisfy that need, get it for pity sake. But I think most of the whining and hysteria here is from individuals who have the frustration tolerance of a gnat and who have to jump on the latest fad just because it's there.

One might think that all existing equipment just disappeared in a puff of smoke because newer, shinier, wider, lower, longer models have been promised.

If you have to be the first on your block to have the newest baubble, knock yourselves out. But stop whining and peuling, PLEASE!

What is all the teeth gnashing here? Where is it written that Fuji owes anyone a new product at this time? Where is it written that Fuji owes anyone anything for having bought an S2? You paid your money. Fuji gave you value for your money. Now you are going to buy something else because Fuji missed some kind of perceived deadline and obligation? And that's going to hurt Fuji? Grow up!

Fuji makes excellent products. On their time schedule. They have not been wrong about a single decision they have made over the last decade. They appeal to a small niche that recognizes the special aspects of their equipment.

They will release the S3 when it is ready. Fuji will price it at a point they think the market dictates and will make corrections if necessary. It will satisfy the needs of the photographers who want its particualr feature set. It will NOT be a mass-market piece of equipment.

Fuji will release other, higher-end equipment for 35 mm format, medium format and 4/3 when it feels it has properly developed the equipment and when it thinks the market is ready. And it doesn't pay attention to those of you jumping up and down, stamping your feet, holding your collective breaths until you turn blue. Get over yourselves.

VL

carl english · Feb 13, 2004

Michael Grøn said:
At the risk of being labelled a racist, I believe that Fuj's
attitude to its otherwise loyal customer base is arrogant - maybe
it is Japanese tradition.

They behave as if there is no need for development having already
won the war with S2, ignoring reasonable customer request for
workable software, problems with back/front focussing, repair
turnaround times, etc., etc.

I so wished the S3 to be more, but at best is a minor step forward
and at worst at large step backwards (Fuji has already had bad
reviews on their SR CCD in another camera) - are they about to
repeat the 14n story.

I believe that Thom predicted that only 3 would survive as leading
suppliers of digital SLR systems. Reading the reports from
Shoenfeld and others from the PMA, I am certain that Fuji will not
be among the survivors.

I think Kodak is stepping in to take its place. Kodak has realised
that film is dead, and will go all the way to take its place in the
digital future. As opposed to Fuji's attitude, Kodak is apparently
listening (perhaps they are more customer-oriented) to its clients.

With the DCS/n, Kodak is showing that you can take the N/F80 base
and make a rugged body around it. They have listened to their
clients' reports and repeated posted firmware upgrades to resolve
problems.

They now even offer existing 14n users an in-camera upgrade making
it compatible with the new DCS/n. See that is interesting -
creating cameras that can be upgraded - not only the firmware, but
also the hardware.

Kodak developed an entirely new sensor from scratch, and they must
be pretty confident that this time they can deliver the unfulfilled
promises of the 14n.

Perhaps Fuji is stuck with a sensor that is not readily capable of
improvement. What surely was the sensor of the day 2 or 3 years
ago, is today perhaps a blind alley.

Of course only time can tell whether the SR sensor is worth it, but
when and at what cost. Hiding the S3 in a glass box does not
promise well. So maybe next year, by which time Kodak will have
taken over many S2 users and have upgraded hard and firmware to
leave Fuji with no clients, biting the dust. But then Fuji still
has its film business!

Taking a look at the Kodak DCS/n, I believe that camerawise, this
offers many of the features on the wishlist of S2 users for the S3
and if the quality of the images live up to expectations, Fuji has
not only shot itself in the foot (or more likely committed seppuku
or harakiri) , but killed off a large loyal customer base, who will
no longer tolerate its arrogant attitude.

All this does not make the S2 a lesser camera - and someday,
historians will look back on this product as a great interlude in
the evolution of digital SLR.

Regards Michael

Thom Hogan · Feb 13, 2004

Michael Grøn said:
I think Kodak is stepping in to take its place.

I think Kodak correctly realized they made some tactical errors last time around, and are doing their best to fix them. I congratulate them for that. That doesn't mean that Fujifilm won't figure out the same thing. To that end, I communicated my concerns in this respect directly to Fujifilm. (It has little to do with the features or lack thereof of the S3, but more to do with the fact that it's too little information, too early, so nobody has the ability to place the product appropriately in the ever-changing digital environment. We don't know the price, we know little about expected delivery, and Fujfilm's release materials were essentially lifeless when it came to quality issues. By that last thing, I mean we didn't even get a statement along the lines of "we believe that the extra dynamic range and lower noise of the S3 will establish a new baseline upon which all DSLRs will be measured; extra megapixels aren't meaningful if they don't deliver industry leading noise and DR properties." If Fujifilm wasn't really excited about the new chip, how can we be?)

Michael Grøn said:
With the DCS/n, Kodak is showing that you can take the N/F80 base
and make a rugged body around it.

The SLR/n is essentially the same body as the Pro 14n. It still has some problems, most noticeably the "reach" to the viewfinder due to the "fatness" of the back. And Fujifilm appears to be trying to make a more rugged body with the S3, though, again, we know so little it's impossible to tell what progress has been made there.

Michael Grøn said:
They have listened to their
clients' reports and repeated posted firmware upgrades to resolve
problems.

While I give Kodak full credit for their constant software efforts (both in firmware and in the computer software side), I wouldn't characterize the majority of the new things being to "resolve problems."

Michael Grøn said:
They now even offer existing 14n users an in-camera upgrade making
it compatible with the new DCS/n. See that is interesting -
creating cameras that can be upgraded - not only the firmware, but
also the hardware.

This has its limits, though. If you upgrade a 14n to a 14nx, you DON'T get the new DSP board, so you don't get better power management. Frankly, that's a bigger weakness than the image quality was, IMHO.

Michael Grøn said:
Perhaps Fuji is stuck with a sensor that is not readily capable of
improvement. What surely was the sensor of the day 2 or 3 years
ago, is today perhaps a blind alley.

I just don't see where that statement is coming from. Most certainly Fujifilm is changing the sensor, adding twice the number of sensing points, though not for resolution purposes, for DR and noise reduction purposes. You're condeming something you haven't seen or experienced. You might as well say that Nikon's sensor for the upcoming D2x is terrible; you know about as much about it, after all.

Michael Grøn said:
Of course only time can tell whether the SR sensor is worth it, but
when and at what cost. Hiding the S3 in a glass box does not
promise well.

I'd caution folk not to read too much into that. When the S2 was introduced at PMA, it, too, was in a glass box most of the time. Remember, PMA is a show for DEALERS, not customers (and often the real stuff is shown to the big dealers in back rooms, anyway). It's only been recently that the high-tech product cycle mania has hit the camera market, and some of the players, like Fujifilm, are still using old tactics. You USED to do this: go to PMA, show the stuff you wanted your dealers to sell at Christmas, take their orders, go back and gear up production. (And remember, there didn't used to be an Internet to deliver instant info to the potential customer.) If you were late in the cycle, you still brought the prototypes and showed them. That's not how it works anymore, and Fujifilm has made a monumental error because of it. Basically, what Fujifilm announced was this: "If you're a working pro and were waiting to buy new equipment for your upcoming wedding season, either buy an S2 Pro or buy somebody else's camera." Ouch!

Michael Grøn said:
All this does not make the S2 a lesser camera

Absolutely correct. But given the rapid cycling of products, lots of buyers are afraid to buy at the back edge of the cycle, which is what you'd be doing by buying an S2 Pro right now. Even in the film realm, Fujifilm hasn't always been good at the kind of marketing they need to be doing with the S2 Pro right now to overcome that buyer fear. You have to look at it from the customer point of view. Someone who is thinking about buying a pro-level DSLR today has three choices:

1. Buy something at the end of its product cycle (S2 Pro, D1x, maybe even the 1Ds).
2. Buy something state of the art just coming on the market (1DMk II, SLR/n).
3. Wait (S3, D2x, 1DsMk II, etc.).

What's Fujifilm told us to do? #3, but without enough specificity to overcome #2. Again, I like the S2 Pro. I like what Fujifilm's done in the market. I suspect the S3 Pro may turn out to be better than everyone thinks it will. But the bottom line is the same: this was a severe product launch fumble. If you want to compete in the modern world, especially against nimble marketers like Canon, you have to do better than Fujfilm did at PMA.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com

shootyou · Feb 13, 2004

Michael Grøn said:
At the risk of being labelled a racist, I believe that Fuj's
attitude to its otherwise loyal customer base is arrogant - maybe
it is Japanese tradition.

They behave as if there is no need for development having already
won the war with S2, ignoring reasonable customer request for
workable software, problems with back/front focussing, repair
turnaround times, etc., etc.

I so wished the S3 to be more, but at best is a minor step forward
and at worst at large step backwards (Fuji has already had bad
reviews on their SR CCD in another camera) - are they about to
repeat the 14n story.

I believe that Thom predicted that only 3 would survive as leading
suppliers of digital SLR systems. Reading the reports from
Shoenfeld and others from the PMA, I am certain that Fuji will not
be among the survivors.

I think Kodak is stepping in to take its place. Kodak has realised
that film is dead, and will go all the way to take its place in the
digital future. As opposed to Fuji's attitude, Kodak is apparently
listening (perhaps they are more customer-oriented) to its clients.

With the DCS/n, Kodak is showing that you can take the N/F80 base
and make a rugged body around it. They have listened to their
clients' reports and repeated posted firmware upgrades to resolve
problems.

They now even offer existing 14n users an in-camera upgrade making
it compatible with the new DCS/n. See that is interesting -
creating cameras that can be upgraded - not only the firmware, but
also the hardware.

Kodak developed an entirely new sensor from scratch, and they must
be pretty confident that this time they can deliver the unfulfilled
promises of the 14n.

Perhaps Fuji is stuck with a sensor that is not readily capable of
improvement. What surely was the sensor of the day 2 or 3 years
ago, is today perhaps a blind alley.

Of course only time can tell whether the SR sensor is worth it, but
when and at what cost. Hiding the S3 in a glass box does not
promise well. So maybe next year, by which time Kodak will have
taken over many S2 users and have upgraded hard and firmware to
leave Fuji with no clients, biting the dust. But then Fuji still
has its film business!

Taking a look at the Kodak DCS/n, I believe that camerawise, this
offers many of the features on the wishlist of S2 users for the S3
and if the quality of the images live up to expectations, Fuji has
not only shot itself in the foot (or more likely committed seppuku
or harakiri) , but killed off a large loyal customer base, who will
no longer tolerate its arrogant attitude.

All this does not make the S2 a lesser camera - and someday,
historians will look back on this product as a great interlude in
the evolution of digital SLR.

Regards Michael

How quick we forget what a great camera the S2 is! (and the S1 for that fact) Lets give Fuji some time and see what happens. Lets all just take some deep breaths. It will be OK. I'm sure.....

Venicia L · Feb 13, 2004

Thom,

I don't think the product cycle mania is as bad in camera equipment as it is in the rest of "consumer" electronics.

True, it's much worse than it was. But photographers, especially pros still look at ROI and the cost of doing business. A camera is NOT obsolete when a new one is released in the way a computer is.

Especially in Fuji's case, they can wait in the wings a little longer than the major players. No one, no one, is going to be able to stop the juggernaut that Canon has become. But Fuji will continue to be a very successful niche supplier.

Cannon, Nikon and Kodak would be much more harmed by a product delay than Fuji. In fact, it could be fatal for one of them. Nikon's lack of ability to forsee Canon's aggressiveness is a case in point.

I believe you, too, are being a little too pessimistic about Fuji. It's not necessary to run at the front of the mad rush to succeed.

VL

Joon Lee106823 · Feb 13, 2004

"...the blame lies at the feet of the camera body supplier."

I fail to see your logic in making this kind of generalized blaming. It's already been stated that Kodak has taken that same Nikon body that Fuji uses and made a rugged body. It wouldn't make sense for Nikon to give Kodak and Fuji an F5 or F100 body - they'd be shooting themselves in the foot!

I think we need to wait and see how the S3 pans out.

Manta Ray Arts · Feb 13, 2004

JM Porter said:
Nikon has refused to sell Fuji and Kodak any
more advanced cameras than the N70/75/80 (whichever) .

You know this because you represent Fuji's procurement division and you've asked Nikon to sell you some F100 bodies and they said no?

Or are you speculating because you think it's the only rational explanation for their product offerings?

I suspect it isn't the former. As for the later, it seems equally plausible to me that Fuji's real concern is cost. They've made a strategic decision to sell cameras based on image quality, not functionality for multiple market segments. They want to be the premium camera in the entry level interchangeable lense market, with that premium fueled by image quality alone. They purposefully aim no higher on functionality than the same entry level offerings of Canon and Nikon.

They have decided that they do not want to compete in the market that would require F100 (or F5) functionality with their sensor.

Why? Because Nikon won't let them? I doubt it. I suspect they have done some computations which show that the cost of their sensor will put them over the top of the current pricepoints, and they don't want to persue the "premium at every price point" strategy because the image quality differences get harder to prove and market as you move up the food chain. They've picked one market segment, and don't want the others. And it ain't because they can't buy the parts.

--
http://www.mantarayarts.com

David Phipps · Feb 13, 2004

That's one thing that is coming to my mind, they are not aiming at the pro's. they can call it a pro camera all they want but sensors alone don't make it. (even if it is the best sensor in the world)

Manta Ray Arts wrote:
They've picked one

Manta Ray Arts said:
market segment, and don't want the others. And it ain't because
they can't buy the parts.

--
http://www.mantarayarts.com

--
David Phipps

Roger Monroe · Feb 13, 2004

Michael,

I remember many making the same kind of comments about Kodak, before and after the release of the 14N. Were you one of them? Chicken Little was mistaken, the sky has not fallen for Kodak. Now considering that Fuji is a much more solvent company than Kodak, why is their demise just around the corner ? For a camera that hasn't even been released ???

You must have one heck of a crystal ball. I think it needs a tune up.

Michael Grøn · Feb 13, 2004

Roger Monroe said:
Michael,

I remember many making the same kind of comments about Kodak,
before and after the release of the 14N. Were you one of them?
Chicken Little was mistaken, the sky has not fallen for Kodak. Now
considering that Fuji is a much more solvent company than Kodak,
why is their demise just around the corner ? For a camera that
hasn't even been released ???

You must have one heck of a crystal ball. I think it needs a tune up.

Hi Roger

Yes, it is a quite special crystal ball - got it rather cheaply because it is all black! Perhaps that is the reason why I am a little gloomy tonight.

As all other S2 lovers I had looked so much forward to the S3 and was the more so disappointed.

No, I was not one of them. I think my home-cooked/spunned predictions were misunderstood. I am sure that Fuji will survive as a conglomerate (by virtue of their immense financial strength) and even as a camera producer.

But I think that Fuji is losing the top market (despite what Thom says) as many current S2 users have indicated their intention of switching camp.

I do not know this for a fact, but I suspect that the S2 crowd is rather small (relatively compared to Kodak, Nikon and Canon) and an exodus now may well be devastating to Fuji in this segment.

It would take a h*ll of a camera to win back people and judging by the preliminary specs of the S3, the S3 will not be up to this.

The reason for this is that there is more to a great camera than just a super sensor (even one with greater dynamic range) and even a camera as the S2 with its high-quality images. I have especially been concerned with the sub-standard EX software.

As a user you may well like a product. This does not necessarily mean that you like the company's approach to you. This can be seen from many postings in this forum. I know that there are conflicting interests among users - some want this and others that - some are willing to pay a higher price and others expect a bargain.

Fuji (and for that sake Kodak) will have problems accommodating all with a single product line-up.

Given the reported financial strength of Fuji, I wonder why the lacks of the S2 have not been adressed in the S3. Pre-PMA rumors had it that Fuji would present two great cameras. Sofar they only succeeded in bungling the release of the news.

Let's hope that Fuji is listening in for once (or that Thom's writing to them will be an eye-opener) so that all the negative energy floating around these days may after all produce something that will take us all by surprise.

As for the Kodak DCS/n, I read in the Kodak forum that shipping has begun.

Regards Michael

Anthony32599 · Feb 13, 2004

Sorry JM, but you're just plain wrong. All I have to do is look at the previous DCS Kodak SLR's to know that Nikon is willing to sell the higher level bodies to anyone.

The reality is that consumers overall are demanding more for less . What this means is that Fuji cannot offer more for more. Something has to give in terms of pricing and I suspect that after the sensor, the next big ticket item is the body itself. Thus, Fuji decided to keep its overall costs and its MSRP costs low by getting a less expensive body. It may be too bad for those of us who wanted more, but their market analysis probably suggests that they can have more sales by sticking with their current strategy, rather than trying to move up-market with a more expensive body and a $ 3,500 to $ 4,000 price tag.

Anthony

JM Porter said:
Michael Grøn said:

At the risk of being labelled a racist, I believe that Fuj's
attitude to its otherwise loyal customer base is arrogant - maybe
it is Japanese tradition.

They behave as if there is no need for development having already
won the war with S2, ignoring reasonable customer request for
workable software, problems with back/front focussing, repair
turnaround times, etc., etc.

I so wished the S3 to be more, but at best is a minor step forward
and at worst at large step backwards (Fuji has already had bad
reviews on their SR CCD in another camera) - are they about to
repeat the 14n story.

I believe that Thom predicted that only 3 would survive as leading
suppliers of digital SLR systems. Reading the reports from
Shoenfeld and others from the PMA, I am certain that Fuji will not
be among the survivors.

I think Kodak is stepping in to take its place. Kodak has realised
that film is dead, and will go all the way to take its place in the
digital future. As opposed to Fuji's attitude, Kodak is apparently
listening (perhaps they are more customer-oriented) to its clients.

With the DCS/n, Kodak is showing that you can take the N/F80 base
and make a rugged body around it. They have listened to their
clients' reports and repeated posted firmware upgrades to resolve
problems.

They now even offer existing 14n users an in-camera upgrade making
it compatible with the new DCS/n. See that is interesting -
creating cameras that can be upgraded - not only the firmware, but
also the hardware.

Kodak developed an entirely new sensor from scratch, and they must
be pretty confident that this time they can deliver the unfulfilled
promises of the 14n.

Perhaps Fuji is stuck with a sensor that is not readily capable of
improvement. What surely was the sensor of the day 2 or 3 years
ago, is today perhaps a blind alley.

Of course only time can tell whether the SR sensor is worth it, but
when and at what cost. Hiding the S3 in a glass box does not
promise well. So maybe next year, by which time Kodak will have
taken over many S2 users and have upgraded hard and firmware to
leave Fuji with no clients, biting the dust. But then Fuji still
has its film business!

Taking a look at the Kodak DCS/n, I believe that camerawise, this
offers many of the features on the wishlist of S2 users for the S3
and if the quality of the images live up to expectations, Fuji has
not only shot itself in the foot (or more likely committed seppuku
or harakiri) , but killed off a large loyal customer base, who will
no longer tolerate its arrogant attitude.

All this does not make the S2 a lesser camera - and someday,
historians will look back on this product as a great interlude in
the evolution of digital SLR.

Regards Michael

Click to expand...

Darrell Wilks · Feb 13, 2004

Those who NEED to have new hardware NOW, so soon after buying their S2, will NEED the S3 later this year soon after buying their SLR/n.
Darrell

Venicia L said:
The hysteria in this forum regarding Fuji's "failure" to have a
working product at PMA, it's "failure" to respond to suggestions,
it's "failure" to support its 'loyal' customers, its "failure" to
have a competitive product while all the other manufacturers are
knocking themselves out is incredible, silly and verging on
psychotic. Fuji's demise? What a joke!

Fuji will have a new product out when it's ready. It will have the
features it will have. Period. Those here who "just can't wait wait
any longer and are going to buy something else RIGHT NOW!!!!, go
right ahead. If you need a new piece of equipment to do a job, and
something exists to satisfy that need, get it for pity sake. But I
think most of the whining and hysteria here is from individuals who
have the frustration tolerance of a gnat and who have to jump on
the latest fad just because it's there.

One might think that all existing equipment just disappeared in a
puff of smoke because newer, shinier, wider, lower, longer models
have been promised.

If you have to be the first on your block to have the newest
baubble, knock yourselves out. But stop whining and peuling, PLEASE!

What is all the teeth gnashing here? Where is it written that Fuji
owes anyone a new product at this time? Where is it written that
Fuji owes anyone anything for having bought an S2? You paid your
money. Fuji gave you value for your money. Now you are going to buy
something else because Fuji missed some kind of perceived deadline
and obligation? And that's going to hurt Fuji? Grow up!

Fuji makes excellent products. On their time schedule. They have
not been wrong about a single decision they have made over the last
decade. They appeal to a small niche that recognizes the special
aspects of their equipment.

They will release the S3 when it is ready. Fuji will price it at a
point they think the market dictates and will make corrections if
necessary. It will satisfy the needs of the photographers who want
its particualr feature set. It will NOT be a mass-market piece of
equipment.

Fuji will release other, higher-end equipment for 35 mm format,
medium format and 4/3 when it feels it has properly developed the
equipment and when it thinks the market is ready. And it doesn't
pay attention to those of you jumping up and down, stamping your
feet, holding your collective breaths until you turn blue. Get over
yourselves.

VL

Robert Whiteman · Feb 14, 2004

David Phipps said:
That's one thing that is coming to my mind, they are not aiming at
the pro's. they can call it a pro camera all they want but sensors
alone don't make it. (even if it is the best sensor in the world)

Depends on what type of "Pro" you're talking about. Not every "Pro" needs 8 fps, 40 shot buffer, titanium body and whateverelse some "Pros" feel they need.

The S2 and I believe the S3 also, will give "Pro" results within the limitations their bodies are designed for. I'm sure most 4x5 cameras don't match up to some "Pro" specs either but at 1 fpm can give you one fine image, if that fills your "Pro" needs.

Pro can define many levels and the S2 does that very nicely.

Fuji has always had a good product to market and now that the latest effort doesn't match up with the dreams and fantasies of a group of expectant gadget freaks (that includes me, the freak part anyway) they get lynched! I wonder who will end up with egg on their face when the dust settles and hardware hits the shelves.

Until proved otherwise, I expect only good things from the S3. If the 4th Generation CCD lives up to expectations the rest of the camera will fit my needs perfectly. For the time being, the S2 is one helluva camera, producing images day after day that beat the pants off the $5,000 blunder from the "yellow box" people. And while we're on the subject, a close scrutiny of their "improvements" make my S2 look even better for it's price.

Now we'll sit back and see what time alone can tell us.

Robert

Fuji's arrogance telltale of its demise

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