Pro1 = new 10D needed soon

i'm patentedly careless with keeping dust out of my 10D, having changed lenses hundreds of times with little regard for protecting the body, and i hardly had anything on the sensor. after 4 months there was one speck in the upper right corner that was barely visible at f/11, which i rarely shoot at anyway. a five minute cleaning took care of it. with a little more care on my part i could probably go several months at a time without sensor cleaning (like Forrest). i suppose if you were working in very dusty conditions, it would be more of an issue, but there are plenty of professionals that get by just fine. my friend with a Nikon D1x has actually had dust affecting his lenses more than his sensor.
Big sensors ARE a compelling reason but Canon
seem to be saying that sensors larger than 1.6x will only go in
expensive professional cameras.
that might be temporary, but i don't see what's so bad about the 1.6x crop. i hated it at first too, but now that i've assembled some lenses around it i don't mind so much anymore. unless you need true ultra wideangle (

i'm all for full-frame if it becomes affordable. but i'm ok with 1.6x crop for the time being, and even for some time in the future.
I have seen the sample pictures from the Pro 1 and I agree that
they are not in the same league as a 10D with a prime or L lens.
But it could be that in future the competition for the 10D line of
cameras will come from improving digicams rather than from a rival
manufacturer.
i agree that some pressure from the digicams is not a bad thing, but i think the DSLR market will evolve at pretty much its own pace regardless. the fact that Canon has no qualms introducing a digicam with higher resolution than the 300D, which has only been out a few months, seems to indicate they're competing directly with cameras like the Sony F828 and are comfortable with the DSLR/digicam divide. yes there will be some 300D owners who feel ripped off that the Pro1 has "2MP more" and costs about the same, but those people probably should have stuck with digicams in the first place. just as SLR film cameras have been around for decades co-existing with very full-featured non-SLRs that cost less, i think DSLRs will be just fine despite whatever happens in the digicam market. apples and oranges as someone else said. besides, i fail to see what is so groundbreaking about the Pro1 other than the 8MP resolution and the "L"-designated lens, which has nothing to do with the DSLR bodies anyway - if anything it should put pressure on Canon to introduce some higher-quality, lower-cost EF-S lenses, thus keeping the 1.6x crop for a while. the way i see it, if you want Canon to keep making progress with respect to cost in the DSLR market, you should be for 1.6x crop and EF-S, not against it... after all it's the tiny sensor of the Pro1 that makes a fast, 28-200mm equivalent "L" lens possible.

another factor is that the 2/3" sensors used in digicams are more widely manufactured than the APS-size (and of course full-frame) DSLR sensors - greater demand, more competition, resolution goes up faster. but as the DSLR market grows, there will be more competition in the APS and full-frame sensor manufacturing arena. greater demand for and competition among DSLRs, not perceived competition from digicams, is what will ultimately drive DSLR technology forward.
 
Thanks for all the interesting contributions in this thread. The
main point I was making was that improving quality in digicams is a
very positive factor for those of us who have big investments in
the EOS system.
Actually, I don't think prosumers (should) affect your EOS investment at all. Canon's not competing with itself; it's competing with Sony, Minolta, and Nikon 8mp offerings.
Last year I was using a G2 and I got very frustrated the awful zoom
control, shutter lag and poor viewfinders so it was not difficult
to make the decision to a buy a 10D. If I had a Pro 1 instead of
the G2 then the decision would not be so clear cut.
Why? The Pro1 will have cruddy zoom control (push button?), shutter lag (no real AF sensor.....), and a poor EVF viewfinder that is not equivalent to a real TTL viewfinder.

When you
consider the extra cost and weight of a good DLSR outfit, plus the
sensor dust issue, then there has to be a truly compelling reason
to make the jump.
And if you disregard the fact that the 10D/300d will WALLOP the Pro1 (and 828, and A2, and the 8700) in image quality, even with cheap lenses?

Big sensors ARE a compelling reason but Canon
seem to be saying that sensors larger than 1.6x will only go in
expensive professional cameras. If Canon would state that they are
committed to providing a range of 10D style cameras with 1.6x, 1.3x
and (eventually) full frame sensors then this would make a good
reason for giving up digicams and investing in the EOS route.
Who cares? This isn't such a big issue. Canon has a very extensive lens lineup that'll let you get the lenses you need. I suppose if you are the superzoom type, then this may be an issue but I'm very happy with my lenses with my 1.6 crop D30.
I have seen the sample pictures from the Pro 1 and I agree that
they are not in the same league as a 10D with a prime or L lens.
Um, they are not in the same league period. A 10D with a cheap lens (stopped down a little) will win out.
But it could be that in future the competition for the 10D line of
cameras will come from improving digicams rather than from a rival
manufacturer.
Perhaps, but that's for the future, not the present.
--
http://www.amherst.edu/~dmmcgaughey/Main/DMPhotography.html
 
Thanks for all the interesting contributions in this thread. The
main point I was making was that improving quality in digicams is a
very positive factor for those of us who have big investments in
the EOS system.

Last year I was using a G2 and I got very frustrated the awful zoom
control, shutter lag and poor viewfinders so it was not difficult
to make the decision to a buy a 10D. If I had a Pro 1 instead of
the G2 then the decision would not be so clear cut. When you
consider the extra cost and weight of a good DLSR outfit, plus the
sensor dust issue, then there has to be a truly compelling reason
to make the jump. Big sensors ARE a compelling reason but Canon
seem to be saying that sensors larger than 1.6x will only go in
expensive professional cameras. If Canon would state that they are
committed to providing a range of 10D style cameras with 1.6x, 1.3x
and (eventually) full frame sensors then this would make a good
reason for giving up digicams and investing in the EOS route.

I have seen the sample pictures from the Pro 1 and I agree that
they are not in the same league as a 10D with a prime or L lens.
But it could be that in future the competition for the 10D line of
cameras will come from improving digicams rather than from a rival
manufacturer.

--
Steve Horn
Gallery http://www.pbase.com/stevehorn/selected
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
Last year I was using a G2 and I got very frustrated the awful zoom
control, shutter lag and poor viewfinders so it was not difficult
to make the decision to a buy a 10D. If I had a Pro 1 instead of
the G2 then the decision would not be so clear cut.
Why? The Pro1 will have cruddy zoom control (push button?), shutter
lag (no real AF sensor.....), and a poor EVF viewfinder that is not
equivalent to a real TTL viewfinder.

When you
consider the extra cost and weight of a good DLSR outfit, plus the
sensor dust issue, then there has to be a truly compelling reason
to make the jump.
And if you disregard the fact that the 10D/300d will WALLOP the
Pro1 (and 828, and A2, and the 8700) in image quality, even with
cheap lenses?
for people like Steve who used the G2 but were disappointed with its shortcomings, i don't think the decision between digicam and DSLR is so clear-cut. a DSLR is not for everyone, and i really believe many people on these forums who bought a 300D or 10D may well be better served by a camera such as the Pro1. so while i don't think the Pro1 is in any way competitive with the 300D/10D, i think it's snobbish to disregard it as a meritless digicam. it appears to be a very good camera that'll suit a lot of people very well. different people, different needs, different opinions.
 
are you saying people buy prosumer digicams because they want more noise? obviously not, so i don't see why you would say something so nonsensical.

i don't agree with Steve Horn's original assessment of the Pro1 rivalling DSLRs, nor do i subscribe to DSLR snobbery. they're different cameras for different people, and i find it silly that people want to write one off because of the existence of the other.
 
....nonDSLR users. He continually implied that image quality and performance (to some extent) would be similar between the Pro1 and DSLRs, which I think is patently false. Now prosumer cameras have many fantastic attributes that cannot be ignored, like size, and convenience.

But I don't think the image quality/performance gap has closed enough yet to really blur the boundary, unfortunately.

In any case, pick the tool that best fits you and take pictures!
Last year I was using a G2 and I got very frustrated the awful zoom
control, shutter lag and poor viewfinders so it was not difficult
to make the decision to a buy a 10D. If I had a Pro 1 instead of
the G2 then the decision would not be so clear cut.
Why? The Pro1 will have cruddy zoom control (push button?), shutter
lag (no real AF sensor.....), and a poor EVF viewfinder that is not
equivalent to a real TTL viewfinder.

When you
consider the extra cost and weight of a good DLSR outfit, plus the
sensor dust issue, then there has to be a truly compelling reason
to make the jump.
And if you disregard the fact that the 10D/300d will WALLOP the
Pro1 (and 828, and A2, and the 8700) in image quality, even with
cheap lenses?
for people like Steve who used the G2 but were disappointed with
its shortcomings, i don't think the decision between digicam and
DSLR is so clear-cut. a DSLR is not for everyone, and i really
believe many people on these forums who bought a 300D or 10D may
well be better served by a camera such as the Pro1. so while i
don't think the Pro1 is in any way competitive with the 300D/10D, i
think it's snobbish to disregard it as a meritless digicam. it
appears to be a very good camera that'll suit a lot of people very
well. different people, different needs, different opinions.
--
http://www.amherst.edu/~dmmcgaughey/Main/DMPhotography.html
 
... that use "outdated" 1D and Nikon D1x cameras. and ask them if they're going to get published in National Geographic anytime soon, as one pro who recently went digital with the "obsolete" 5MP D1x did.

they probably still won't understand though... oh well.
About mid summer i am out shooting a wedding with my two 10d's and
the 1ds in the car as a third backup. Joe Nobody walks up to me and
says, Hey i shoot with a Pro level Canon and its 8mp. Thats about
2mp higher than yours. Hey eveyone, I have a better camera than the
Professional Photographer. Word spreads fast and soon i have a
small swarm of Know it alls asking me questions. Its a hard battle
to deal with. This is my ONLY complaint.
 
Thanks for all the interesting contributions in this thread. The
main point I was making was that improving quality in digicams is a
very positive factor for those of us who have big investments in
the EOS system.
Actually, I don't think prosumers (should) affect your EOS
investment at all. Canon's not competing with itself; it's
competing with Sony, Minolta, and Nikon 8mp offerings.
Last year I was using a G2 and I got very frustrated the awful zoom
control, shutter lag and poor viewfinders so it was not difficult
to make the decision to a buy a 10D. If I had a Pro 1 instead of
the G2 then the decision would not be so clear cut.
Why? The Pro1 will have cruddy zoom control (push button?), shutter
lag (no real AF sensor.....), and a poor EVF viewfinder that is not
equivalent to a real TTL viewfinder.

When you
consider the extra cost and weight of a good DLSR outfit, plus the
sensor dust issue, then there has to be a truly compelling reason
to make the jump.
And if you disregard the fact that the 10D/300d will WALLOP the
Pro1 (and 828, and A2, and the 8700) in image quality, even with
cheap lenses?

Big sensors ARE a compelling reason but Canon
seem to be saying that sensors larger than 1.6x will only go in
expensive professional cameras. If Canon would state that they are
committed to providing a range of 10D style cameras with 1.6x, 1.3x
and (eventually) full frame sensors then this would make a good
reason for giving up digicams and investing in the EOS route.
Who cares? This isn't such a big issue. Canon has a very extensive
lens lineup that'll let you get the lenses you need. I suppose if
you are the superzoom type, then this may be an issue but I'm very
happy with my lenses with my 1.6 crop D30.
I have seen the sample pictures from the Pro 1 and I agree that
they are not in the same league as a 10D with a prime or L lens.
Um, they are not in the same league period. A 10D with a cheap lens
(stopped down a little) will win out.
But it could be that in future the competition for the 10D line of
cameras will come from improving digicams rather than from a rival
manufacturer.
Perhaps, but that's for the future, not the present.
--
http://www.amherst.edu/~dmmcgaughey/Main/DMPhotography.html
--

On our trip to Yellowstone last fall our G1, kept in the console of the car, got us some treasured shots that I was unable to get with the D60 that rode in the back seat. The D60 usually had the 15-30 when I needed the 100-400 or the 28-105 or vice-versa.

I look forward to replacing the G1 with the Pro1 ... if the reviews indicate that the gain in overall quality justifies the added $$.

Curious Gary
 
I am going to replace my G1 with the Pro1. But the Pro1 and its L lens wouldn't even come close to competeing with either my D60 or 10D using a coke bottle bottom for a lens.
--
On our trip to Yellowstone last fall our G1, kept in the console of
the car, got us some treasured shots that I was unable to get with
the D60 that rode in the back seat. The D60 usually had the 15-30
when I needed the 100-400 or the 28-105 or vice-versa.

I look forward to replacing the G1 with the Pro1 ... if the reviews
indicate that the gain in overall quality justifies the added $$.

Curious Gary
 
The launch of the Pro 1 with an L series lens is a really
significant event for Canon. It signals that Canon considers that
digicams are now good enough to be used by pros and advanced
amateurs. If the picture quality can be achieved there are HUGE
advantages in this type of camera compared with the EOS system of
interchangeable lenses with their heavy glass and sensor dust.

The only way for Canon to keep people buying into the EF lens
system is to give us even better cameras where the pictures are SO
much better than the digicams that it is worth lugging round the
big cameras and huge lenses.

With the quality from digicams improving I cannot see the point in
a 1.6x crop for much longer. What is the point in lugging around
10D with a 24-70 f2.8L and a 70-200 f2.8 L IS when we are only
getting a fraction of the capability of these great lenses?

So Canon - give us a 10D in September with the 1DMk2 sensor and
focusing system in it, then we will not desert the EF system. And
in a year or two, give us a 10D with a full frame sensor at a price
non professionals can afford.

--
Steve Horn
Gallery http://www.pbase.com/stevehorn/selected
 
UPS is happy with my 10D. Twice to Irvine and back. Twice told it needed calibration. My Nikon 5700 shines in comparison. Happy for you folks that are happy with the 10D. After thousands spent on lenses and two factory trips I wish I had not made the investment.
 

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