Reading mode: Light Dark

Fovean

Go to last post
Standard Sensors are called 6 MP because they're monochromatic so it captures everything in Black and White... This basically means that the base image captured is 6 MP so it isn't really deceitful!

The Foveon Sensor is deceitful because at no point will you get a 10 MP image from the camera! The truth is in raw resolution the camera fell apart on the test charts because there weren't enough pixels to clearly define the smaller areas.

I would be a true 5 MP Foveon would really clean house and an 8 MP Full Frame Foveon that could handle ISO 100 - 1600 with a push to 3200 might just end the Bayer Market all together!
photogeek said:
... calling "regular" DSLR sensors 6MP is misleading, too. They are
only 6MP in Green/Luminance channel, everything else is 1.5MP.
While luminance is the most important thing for the human eye,
calling what essentially is a 3MP camera 6MP is inaccurate, too.

This is an area where Sigma could do some clever marketing if they
had a bottomless legal budget. They'd have to effectively educate
the consumer that 6MP is, in fact, monkey business and the 3.4MP
that they sell are the "real deal". In my opinion calling a camera
that outputs 3.4MP images "10.2MP" can insult the potential
customer, and many won't buy the camera just because they feel the
manufacturer is lying to them to get their attention.
Click to expand...
--

'The only real currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with each other when we're being uncool.' -- Cameron Crowe
 
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:
And that's where my "megasomethings" rating comes in handy. It
doesn't matter if the
"somethings" are stacked 3 deep (as in a Foveon), if there's two of
them to a pixel (as in the Fuji), or if they're spread out in a 3
color pattern (lieka Bayer) or a 4 color pattern (like a Sony).
Click to expand...
I like the Megasomethings rating (I read that before as well), but I think the name could be improved as it sounds a bit wishy-washy. That's why instead I tried to make the reader think along the lines of output quality as best I could...

But you're right about needing something like an MTF indicator. It sounds a lot more impressive as well!

--
---> Kendall
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/sigma_shoot_1 - world apart, world
together
 
AdamW said:
Here's the thing: none of that really matters. The only way Foveon
could compete now is to make a 8MP X3 sensor, and it's already a
long way off.

Therefore, Foveon is effectively doomed to fail and destined to
MIA, RIP, DOA.
Click to expand...
Couldn't they compete pretty well by automatically doubling output size and adding a lot of noise to the image?

:-)

--
---> Kendall
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/sigma_shoot_1 - world apart, world
together
 
Peter G said:
I mentioned it was only a matter of time till the Red on Blue res
chart was brought out...

Notice how this compbo hurts the eye. That is because you really
can't come up with a more unnaturaly combination of colours.
Totally unrepresentative of the real world.
Click to expand...
I don't know about that - the sky is blue after all, and a popular pastime is to shoot things with the sky as a backdrop. Things like cars, flowers, trees, clothes (or people in clothes), sunsets... you get the idea, all of these occur quite often and often the subject might have a bit of read about them.

And of course, right now there is a dedicated Spiderman photographer somewhere out there cursing the performance of his digital camera.

--
---> Kendall
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/sigma_shoot_1 - world apart, world
together
 
Peter G said:
Another. Sd9 Left ( 10.2MP according to Foveon Sigma), 300d right(
6MP bayer ) Looks like 10.2MP foveon is inferior to 6MP bayer to
me. YMMV
http://www.trytel.com/~pguidry/stacks.jpg
Click to expand...
Actually, that boat is a pretty good example of why the SD9 is a better camera for real-world images.

Take a look around. At first the SD9 boat seems to be a little less detailed (than the seemingly sharpened example of the other boat). But keep looking - what about the blue on red (hey, that combo never occurs in real life! Except for here I guess) tails of the "swooshes" on the smokestack - the SD9 image has curves that gracefully end, while the 300D kind of stutters to a stop unnaturally.

Take a look in some of the windows - in the SD9 shot you can see something sort of grey at the botom of of one of the rooms with the curtains open (about mid-picture). In the 300D shot all that color detail is gone.

Along the railings, I can make out a bit more detail in the tops of the railing in the SD9.

The SD9 image could probably be sharpened and smoothed to get closer to the look of the 300D image - but at least starts with detail that is lost in the other photo.

There are many points in that picture that show exactly why I chose an SD9 over a 300D (or the 10D)

--
---> Kendall
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/sigma_shoot_1 - world apart, world
together
 
It's not considered deceitful because it simply is a 6 MP Monochromatic sensor... I just wish they could interpolate the color data seperate from actual sensor data and then slap the two together.

This Foveon will never achieve 10 Million Pixels in black and white or color so with everything being considered equal I would say the Foveon is the one not being honest.
Scott Greiff said:
Pete Perry said:
Standard Sensors are called 6 MP because they're monochromatic so
it captures everything in Black and White... This basically means
that the base image captured is 6 MP so it isn't really deceitful!
Click to expand...
It wouldn't be considered deceitful if the world was monochromatic.
  • ScottAG
--
http://www.greiff.org/scottag
http://www.pbase.com/scottag
Click to expand...
--

'The only real currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with each other when we're being uncool.' -- Cameron Crowe
 
BJN,

Could it be because those of us who actually like the concept of the
Foveon sensor are sick and tired of all the bashing by the bayer-ites.

That's all that ever goes on here bashing and measurebating. It's all
that goes in in practically every forum. I could understand if we were
all claiming that the X3 sensor was on par with a Canon 1DS and Kodak
14n but that's never been something I have said. IT IS however on the
same level as a 6"MP" Bayer sensor that much has been beaten to death
and is accepted by most people who can see past thier bayer bias.

But just because some of us support Foveon we become Zealots..
Nevermind the fact the bayer-ites are just as guity trying to prove that
the Foveon sensor isn't on par with a 6"MP" Bayer Sensor.

--



http://www.westol.com/~brettd/sd10/
 
I support the fact that it has 10.2 million photosites. I do not support the
fact that the output data is solely 3.4MP because that is not a factual
reading of the amount of data carried in the image.

I don't support calling it a 10.2 "Megapixel" camera because it simply is not.
And I don't support calling it a 6 Megapixel camera either. I think new
standards of measure are in order for all sensors so that the consumer is
more educated on what they are purchasing. I think all cameras should be
listed by the collected number of photo sites seperated into R G and B
Channels. I think this data should be mandatory law on all digital capture
devices.

Monitor companies cheated for years.. 17" monitor while it was 15.9"
Viewable.. They were finally made to get with the program and I think it's
time someone redefine the way sensors are described to be factual and
accurate.

--



http://www.westol.com/~brettd/sd10/
 
I don't care how many pixels they claimed it to be. What I only eager to know is the result in the resolution chart.

So I would say nothing about what the label should be, it can be 10 mp or 1mp I just don't care. Does the label really matters? Not at all.
PHGN said:
How many people here disagree with the labeling of Fovean resolution?
Click to expand...
 
As I pointed out below, even Phil's review of the SD-9 shows that the Foveon shots can be doubled in resolution and still show up the Canon D60 in definition.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd9/page20.asp

Even in a comparison with a Canon 1Ds, the SD-10 holds its own:



While the Foveon may not make show 10M pixels in black and white resolution, the current crop of 6M (or 11M) pixel bayer sensor cameras can't claim to offer 6M pixels in color resolution.
  • ScottAG
Pete Perry said:
This Foveon will never achieve 10 Million Pixels in black and white
or color so with everything being considered equal I would say the
Foveon is the one not being honest.
Scott Greiff said:
Pete Perry said:
Standard Sensors are called 6 MP because they're monochromatic so
it captures everything in Black and White... This basically means
that the base image captured is 6 MP so it isn't really deceitful!
Click to expand...
It wouldn't be considered deceitful if the world was monochromatic.
  • ScottAG
--
http://www.greiff.org/scottag
http://www.pbase.com/scottag
Click to expand...
--
'The only real currency in this bankrupt world is what we share
with each other when we're being uncool.' -- Cameron Crowe
Click to expand...
--
http://www.greiff.org/scottag
http://www.pbase.com/scottag
 
Shizhu Pan said:
I don't care how many pixels they claimed it to be. What I only
eager to know is the result in the resolution chart.
Click to expand...
Well with only 1064 lines, that will be the maximum resolution. How could it possibly any greater. So assuming a very good lens you now have your answer. Or about equal to 3MP bayer camera.
 
You did notice the captions in the 1DS comparions. They are either downsized 1DS images, or trimmed 1DS images. Most folks with a clue realized that if you downsize or trim the 1DS image you are throwing away the extra detail. Post some original comparions and then you might have something to talk about.
Scott Greiff said:
Even in a comparison with a Canon 1Ds, the SD-10 holds its own:

http://61.206.42.242/images/fujieda/sd9/sd10vs1ds_1.jpg

While the Foveon may not make show 10M pixels in black and white
resolution, the current crop of 6M (or 11M) pixel bayer sensor
cameras can't claim to offer 6M pixels in color resolution.
Click to expand...
 
Brett DiMichele said:
But just because some of us support Foveon we become Zealots..
Nevermind the fact the bayer-ites are just as guity trying to prove
that
the Foveon sensor isn't on par with a 6"MP" Bayer Sensor.
Click to expand...
Show even one message that says that. I think you are suffering a bit of paranoia.

Eric said that it was in the 6-7MP range, I agreed completely. I didn't see anyone suggest anything less than 6MP...
 
Member said:
Standard Sensors are called 6 MP because they're monochromatic so
it captures everything in Black and White... This basically means
that the base image captured is 6 MP so it isn't really deceitful!
Click to expand...
Are you talking about a Bayer sensor, or a true monochrome sensor? I do not know of a Bayer sensor that do not use a CFA.
Member said:
The Foveon Sensor is deceitful because at no point will you get a
10 MP image from the camera! The truth is in raw resolution the
camera fell apart on the test charts because there weren't enough
pixels to clearly define the smaller areas.
Click to expand...
Agreed, that you cannot get a 10.2mp bw image out of a Foveon sensor, you can only get a 3.4mp BW RAW image. But then, nor would you get a 6mp full RGB and/or BW image out of a Bayer RAW file either.

So why it is okay for Bayer sensors to state it is 6mp, when it only captures 1.5mp worth of full RGB, with 0.5mp extra G ?

Maybe I wasnt paying attention in my 1st grade math classes, but I can only count a max of 2mp worth of RAW data here for any given color.

BTW, just how truly BW would that 6mp Bayer RAW image look w/o interpolation?

--
jc
 
If We are counting pixels by the Bayers standard. For Monitors graphics cards and printers people would say I have a 3072x2304 monitor, refering to a 1024x768 RGB monitor.
At the end the bottom line is not Pixel count but RESOLUTION.

No even todays Monitors CRTs or LCD's, have a full pixel with three componets in the same place as Foveon do.
Jimmy Chen said:
Jimmy Chen said:
Standard Sensors are called 6 MP because they're monochromatic so
it captures everything in Black and White... This basically means
that the base image captured is 6 MP so it isn't really deceitful!
Click to expand...
Are you talking about a Bayer sensor, or a true monochrome sensor?
I do not know of a Bayer sensor that do not use a CFA.
Jimmy Chen said:
The Foveon Sensor is deceitful because at no point will you get a
10 MP image from the camera! The truth is in raw resolution the
camera fell apart on the test charts because there weren't enough
pixels to clearly define the smaller areas.
Click to expand...
Agreed, that you cannot get a 10.2mp bw image out of a Foveon
sensor, you can only get a 3.4mp BW RAW image. But then, nor would
you get a 6mp full RGB and/or BW image out of a Bayer RAW file
either.

So why it is okay for Bayer sensors to state it is 6mp, when it
only captures 1.5mp worth of full RGB, with 0.5mp extra G ?

Maybe I wasnt paying attention in my 1st grade math classes, but I
can only count a max of 2mp worth of RAW data here for any given
color.

BTW, just how truly BW would that 6mp Bayer RAW image look w/o
interpolation?

--
jc
Click to expand...
 
Scott Greiff said:
Even in a comparison with a Canon 1Ds, the SD-10 holds its own:

http://61.206.42.242/images/fujieda/sd9/sd10vs1ds_1.jpg
Click to expand...
How about we use the 1Ds image without downsizing to 3mp and then making a claim that the sd10 is matching up.

Not samples I would choose, but I did not touch either, just did the cropping from the images on the site, where they already had the resized image. Don't blame me if you don't like the Sigma resize. Though I will say this is representative of what upsized sigma images do. Slightly different result now, eh?

 
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Just Looking said:
Peter,

You poke fun at people who would use a color target to show the
advantages of X3, but you choose a black-and-white target to show
the advantages of Bayer. Can you see your bias and double-standard
there?
Click to expand...
Not really. The real world is almost never monochrome. As long as
you have details in all the channels of a Bayer sensor, you can
detect edges.
Click to expand...
??? Sounds like you agree with my point, yet are denying it? The world is not monochrome, and that's why you will suffer if you undersample chroma.
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
The Sigma users have found an interesting thing: the SD9 and SD10
make much better black-and-white photos than 6 MP Bayer cameras do.
Surprising, perhaps? Contradictory to your res chart data perhaps?
Not really. The real world has a lot of color detail, and the
Bayer sensors, because they under-sample color, alias that detail
into false luminance detail, which gives the image a typical
Bayer-mushy look.
Click to expand...
I think the problem is that Bayer sensors typically are
considerably limited in resolution by their AA filters, while the
Foveon isn't. In real world situations, people aren't very likely
to notice a Foveon sensor's spatial aliasing.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's part of the Bayer problem. The other part is that the AA filters aren't strong enough to prevent color aliasing.
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
With X3, you get better luminance detail, on
real-world scenes.
Click to expand...
Only because of the sorry state of Bayer decomvolution algorithms.
Click to expand...
Thanks for reminding us that you're hoarding the good stuff.
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Do I have a standardized chart to prove this? No. Go take some
pictures. Or take those shots of the boat stacks and convert to
black-and-white (ideally, go get the raw files and do it right) and
see how that blue swoosh on red stack looks when compared in
black-and-white. Lots of other such detail, too...
Click to expand...
Still trying to decide what to do with some of my algorithms. But I
should post some of my "stock Nikon" vs edge finding comparisons.
Or even the VNG vs stock Nikon. I can't believe how that turned out.
Click to expand...
So go for it. Show us how good Bayer could be, if only Nikon were as clever as you.

j
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
Click to expand...
 
Lucem said:
Well if you only measure B&W, I would say yes. But Color resolution
tests will tell a different story, favoring Foveon chips.
Click to expand...
Which is why, to be fair to Bayer, Foveon and SuperCCD type sensors you should do both types of test; colour and mono. Another useful comparison might be to take a picture of test scenes at the optimum resolution of the relevent technology and rescale to the resolution of the other. In otherwords, if we were comparing a 3.4MP Foveon camera with a 6MP Bayer camera then we would provide pictures of colour and mono test cards as:
  • A 3.4MP Foveon image
  • The same 3.4MP Foveon image interpolated up to 6MP
  • A 6MP Bayer image
  • The same 6MP Bayer image downsampled to 3.4MP
It still doesn't change the fact that while this is not quite an apples to oranges comparison, it's not going to be easy to come up with a formal testing methodology that all parties can accept as fair, and there are always going to be protesters of course. Still, there is always that old standby test, subjective as it is, of looking at real pictures with your own eyes and making up your own mind.

Andy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Satyaa
Does print size depend on sensor size, or just pixel count?
2
Replies
23
Views
18K
olyflyer
olyflyer
S
Pixel Shift vs Stitching
2 3
Replies
52
Views
42K
Bjoern Gustafsson
B
O
Digital will never replace film (2006)
2
Replies
38
Views
6K
The Ghost of Caravaggio
T
A
Upgrade to D5500? Crop vs. Full Frame? Lenses?
Replies
16
Views
8K
Ryan Schwartz
Ryan Schwartz
M
Fujifilm S3 Pro - Is S+R sensor design flawed with fast lenses?
Replies
7
Views
5K
Miriquidi
M

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top