Help! E-1 or 10d for first DSLR?

If I remember correctly Phil didn't love the E-1 because of the sensor performance
Per many E1 users, the images print out fine to large sizes like 16X20 and more and the noise is not a huge issue.

It almost seems like we all need a reality check. Many DSLRs flat out have less noise, way less, than film. How that heck did we take pictures before 2-3 years ago.

To me some perspective is needed with these tests.

Stan
 
Gene is on a mission for Oly. He has a problem with the 10D. For him to say every 10D user has these focus issues, they are just too dumb to know it, or are keeping them secret is ridiculous.

Although Gene seems to be a good person, and quite knowledgeable about photography, his marketing campaign for the E-1, and degrading comments about the 10D, make his credibility on this issue questionable.
He goes on the same rant on every E-1 vs 10D thread.

--
Doug D.
'Promise a rainbow, and someone will look to the sky.'
Equipment in profile.
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This risk of investing into the 4/3 system, I think can be laid to
rest.
Say what? Yeah...like any time two companies announce a new standard, it succeeds.

It MAY succeed, it MAY not. Frankly, without other COMPETING standards joining in, you have very little.

Now, if Canon or Nikon joined, then you'd have something. Even Minolta.

But Kodak and Fuji didn't HAVE their own standards. So you have basically Olympus as the only camera company changing to support this new "standard".

You have not taken off any of the existing and competing standards (Canon mount, Nikon mount, Minolta mount).

Shoot...I'd cheer if even Sony would announce support. But then again, they have no existing SLR standard.

Money is mad in the lenses and camera companies have lots of incentive to keep that lens money for themselves.

Which may mean that the 4/3 standard won't succeed as so eagerly desired.

Lee
 
Money is mad in the lenses and camera companies have lots of
incentive to keep that lens money for themselves.

Which may mean that the 4/3 standard won't succeed as so eagerly
desired.
Whether or not any other manufacturers adopt the 4/3rds standard is irrelevant to the success of the Olympus E-1 camera system. When Olympus introduced the OM-1 35mm SLR, they didn't adopt the Canon or Nikon lens mount - and that certainly had no effect on the success of OM-1, or inhibit its remaining in production for nearly 20 years.

I suspect Olympus will sell E-1's as fast as they can make them, simply because with a zoom lens attached, they are smaller and lighter than the competition.

Gene Windell
 
posts, I spent about 30-40 minutes recently playing with an E1. It DOES have a hot body. I was quite impressed and every demo shot I took came out well exposed and with good WB. The camera has had a lot of intelligent thought put into it. It's on my list as I will be ditching my Rebel later this year.

Stan
 
Never said he doesn't have valid opinions. Just that he is does have a lot of "zeal" when it comes to putting down the 10D and playing up the E-1.

I've seen this before when the Minolta Dimage 7 came out and the irrational behavior of some E-10 users. It wasn't a pretty sight.

Not saying Gene would be like this, but they had a similar level of "zeal" about the E-10s.

Joo
posts, I spent about 30-40 minutes recently playing with an E1. It
DOES have a hot body. I was quite impressed and every demo shot I
took came out well exposed and with good WB. The camera has had a
lot of intelligent thought put into it. It's on my list as I will
be ditching my Rebel later this year.

Stan
--
  • Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture. In the meantime, I'll blame the equipment. :)


http://www.singularlight.com/
http://www.pbase.com/jchung/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dcphotogs/
 
some perspective is needed on ALL sides. About both the E-1 AND the 10D. I believe the shortcomings of BOTH cameras are not as big as some would have us think.

Joo
If I remember correctly Phil didn't love the E-1 because of the sensor performance
Per many E1 users, the images print out fine to large sizes like
16X20 and more and the noise is not a huge issue.

It almost seems like we all need a reality check. Many DSLRs flat
out have less noise, way less, than film. How that heck did we
take pictures before 2-3 years ago.

To me some perspective is needed with these tests.

Stan
--
  • Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture. In the meantime, I'll blame the equipment. :)


http://www.singularlight.com/
http://www.pbase.com/jchung/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dcphotogs/
 
What would be the size and weights of comparable E-1 and 10D kits?

I've never used an E-1 and do not know. I'd like to know what the difference in size and weight would be. Its easy enough to say its smaller/lighter. But I'd rather have numbers put around it so that people can make a reasonable judgement about it.

From the photos I saw of the E-1, it didn't seem like the E-1 would be significantly smaller/lighter than a 10D kit. But then, the 10D isn't the smallest DSLR with a 35mm lens mount. How would it compare to some of the other smaller DSLRs with 35mm lens mounts?

Joo
Money is mad in the lenses and camera companies have lots of
incentive to keep that lens money for themselves.

Which may mean that the 4/3 standard won't succeed as so eagerly
desired.
Whether or not any other manufacturers adopt the 4/3rds standard is
irrelevant to the success of the Olympus E-1 camera system. When
Olympus introduced the OM-1 35mm SLR, they didn't adopt the Canon
or Nikon lens mount - and that certainly had no effect on the
success of OM-1, or inhibit its remaining in production for nearly
20 years.

I suspect Olympus will sell E-1's as fast as they can make them,
simply because with a zoom lens attached, they are smaller and
lighter than the competition.

Gene Windell
--
  • Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture. In the meantime, I'll blame the equipment. :)


http://www.singularlight.com/
http://www.pbase.com/jchung/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dcphotogs/
 
Karaya,

Don't rule out from your search the Nikon D70 and Pentax *ist D. You may be surprised with the image quality and robustness of those cameras.
... Lucas
 
Although Gene seems to be a good person, and quite knowledgeable
about photography, his marketing campaign for the E-1, and
degrading comments about the 10D, make his credibility on this
issue questionable.
I have extensive experience using both cameras, which is something most 10D owners can not claim. I prefer one over the other, and have no qualms about explaining why in precise detail. The only thing that makes my credibility questionable is that I don't view the 10D as "the camera of the gods," as it is often portrayed to newbies who are shopping for their first dSLR.
He goes on the same rant on every E-1 vs 10D thread.
It's only a rant to current 10D owners, and what I write is not intended for them. For people shopping for their first dSLR, I can imagine that what I write is perceived as nothing more than a bunch of facts and sincere opinions presented by a professional photographer who has used both cameras.

I never start these threads, and I never intend to contribute anything more than my first response. The subsequent responses come from people asking me a question, or challenging the veracity of what I have said.

As these discussions go, the 10D enthusiasts reach the point where they can no longer defend the indefensible - so the discussion turns to my motivations and personality. Perhaps this discussion has reached that point, and I think enough has been said about the 10D versus the E-1 already.

Gene Windell
 
Gene,

I don't doubt that your sincerity. But I do believe that you portray the 10D in a light that it does not deserve. Perhaps its your reaction to what you view as a perception of the 10D as the "camera of the gods".

It is one thing to compare cameras and another to mislead. I do believe you have misled people with your accounts of the 10D. I will say that I do believe your account of your experiences with the 10D and the E-1. But I do not believe the experience is being relayed to others in a clear objective manner.

As an example, I bring up the point of the AWB. I will not debate whether the E-1's AWB is better or worse than the 10D's. I do not have the experience with the E-1 to make that judgement. But I do not believe it is accurate to say that the 10D's AWB is "poor". I find it to be more than acceptable. I do not believe that the circumstances you cite, under which the 10D's AWB is not accurate, is not sufficient in and of itself to judge that the 10D's AWB as a whole is poor. It may be poor under those circumstances, but in many other circumstances it is good. It may not perform as well as the E-1 under those circumstances, but that in and of itself is not a cause to claim the 10D's AWB is "poor".

Joo
Although Gene seems to be a good person, and quite knowledgeable
about photography, his marketing campaign for the E-1, and
degrading comments about the 10D, make his credibility on this
issue questionable.
I have extensive experience using both cameras, which is something
most 10D owners can not claim. I prefer one over the other, and
have no qualms about explaining why in precise detail. The only
thing that makes my credibility questionable is that I don't view
the 10D as "the camera of the gods," as it is often portrayed to
newbies who are shopping for their first dSLR.
He goes on the same rant on every E-1 vs 10D thread.
It's only a rant to current 10D owners, and what I write is not
intended for them. For people shopping for their first dSLR, I can
imagine that what I write is perceived as nothing more than a bunch
of facts and sincere opinions presented by a professional
photographer who has used both cameras.

I never start these threads, and I never intend to contribute
anything more than my first response. The subsequent responses
come from people asking me a question, or challenging the veracity
of what I have said.

As these discussions go, the 10D enthusiasts reach the point where
they can no longer defend the indefensible - so the discussion
turns to my motivations and personality. Perhaps this discussion
has reached that point, and I think enough has been said about the
10D versus the E-1 already.

Gene Windell
--
  • Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture. In the meantime, I'll blame the equipment. :)


http://www.singularlight.com/
http://www.pbase.com/jchung/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dcphotogs/
 
perception of the 10D as the "camera of the gods".
I have noticed that there are a huge number of Canon people at these forums, a greater percentage than what is sold. Maybe Canon people surf more or something.

In any event I have noticed that certain "truths" claimed for the 10D are never challenged but if you click on Phil's own tests they are seen to be unfounded per his tests.

Sometimes I call this group-think.

Stan
 
And I think it is good for people to point out that the "truths" are not "truths" for the good and for the bad. That these false "truths" should be brought to light on BOTH SIDES.

Joo
perception of the 10D as the "camera of the gods".
I have noticed that there are a huge number of Canon people at
these forums, a greater percentage than what is sold. Maybe Canon
people surf more or something.

In any event I have noticed that certain "truths" claimed for the
10D are never challenged but if you click on Phil's own tests they
are seen to be unfounded per his tests.

Sometimes I call this group-think.

Stan
--
  • Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture. In the meantime, I'll blame the equipment. :)


http://www.singularlight.com/
http://www.pbase.com/jchung/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dcphotogs/
 
Gene Windell wrote:
...

I wonder how much better the E-1 is? Looking at the sample images with Phil's review and with the review at Steves Digicams I see a number of picturesI with blown highlights.

Here is a sample 100% crop from the picture of the Red Brick Building in Steve's review.

http://www.fototime.com/ {E58A928F-4118-4057-8E91-F9A5596E51FB} picture.JPG

The full picture is PA220048.JPG at:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/e1_samples.html

Frank B

Frank B
3. The Canon 10D has a propensity for blown-out highlights. In
practical use, this means you often have to under-expose the scene
to retain highlight detail - and then try to bring back the shadows
and midtones with post-processing. The E-1 has more accurate
exposure metering and an imaging sensor with wider dynamic range
than the 10D. This results in no problems with blown-out
highlights and much better capability to get the shot right the
first time - without the need to shoot the same scene over and over
again while adjusting the exposure settings.
..
Gene Windell
 
I got the Gene quote mislabeled. The post should have read.

Frank B wrote:
...
I wonder how much better the E-1 is? Looking at the sample images
with Phil's review and with the review at Steves Digicams I see a
number of picturesI with blown highlights.

Here is a sample 100% crop from the picture of the Red Brick
Building in Steve's review.

http://www.fototime.com/ {E58A928F-4118-4057-8E91-F9A5596E51FB} picture.JPG

The full picture is PA220048.JPG at:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/e1_samples.html

Frank B
3. The Canon 10D has a propensity for blown-out highlights. In
practical use, this means you often have to under-expose the scene
to retain highlight detail - and then try to bring back the shadows
and midtones with post-processing. The E-1 has more accurate
exposure metering and an imaging sensor with wider dynamic range
than the 10D. This results in no problems with blown-out
highlights and much better capability to get the shot right the
first time - without the need to shoot the same scene over and over
again while adjusting the exposure settings.
..
Gene Windell
 
coles,

Very thoughtful response. My guess is, not a bash I promise, is that you are relatively young. I only say that, respectfully, because there are so many times that rational standards are implemented and just don't make it. Few think that VHS was better than Beta or PC's than Macs. Nevertheless. If one chooses the E-1 they take on some additional margin of risk. Not that it's not worth it in a practical sense, just be aware of it. That is,... look both ways as you cross the street.

I do a lot of Macro work, so it isn't ready for prime time for me yet. But it is a nice piece of technology and glass.

Geoff

I still think the d-70 is likely to be the one.
I may be crazy, but I am about to jump into the DSLR world after
shooting with the Nikon 4500 and having been brought up on Nikon
N90. I think the D-70 appears to bridge the best of both worlds
between the 10d and the E-1.

If I remember correctly Phil didn't love the E-1 because of the
sensor performance.

Whatever you do don't buy the 300D. Not for any reason except that
your original post said that it felt cheap. That feeling will grow
and you will hate your decision.

The E-1, 10d and the D-70 will all do you well. The jury is out on
the E-1 so I am going to stay away. We don't know how long the
Olympus line will be around, so if you want to build over time you
are takiing another risk. The 10D is proven and it's problems are
known. I am guessing the D-70 is going to rock and I am waiting.

don't fret too much afterall it's the photographer and the process
of shooting that is most critical.

Geoff
Geoff,

One is taking a risk walking out onto the streets tomorrow morning
  • one may be run down by a bus, you know.
There is this continuous reference to the viability of the 4/3
system. I think one needs to look at the grander picture here. I
know, your intent is not to open a whole new argument here and I
respect this - I just want to add this to what I have already said.

The biggest single THREAT to the film companies (Kodak, Fuji, Agfa
etc. ) is the coming of digital photography. There is still some
money for them to be made in printing paper etc., the remnants of
the film business for the next ten years or so. But, in essence
their existence is at stake. Their commitment, together with
Olympus to the 4/3 standard, will ensure its survival.

Had 35mm cameras not "standardized" on the 35mm film format we
would not today have the advanced industry (in film cameras, I
mean) that we do have. In a sense we do have some of this
non-standardization, with different larger formats etc. dealing
with specialized markets. But, it is because of standardization on
the 35mm film type and development processes that we have the SLR's
and other point and shoot cameras to choose from, are able to have
our film developed, printed etc.

The film companies (Kodak, Fuji) have moved, or are moving to
manufacturing sensors now rather than film. I predict you are
likely to see a whole new market created/supported for the 4/3
standard size of imager - Fuji and Kodak will make them (before it
was Kodachrome and Fujichrome) and supply them to camera
manufacturers - either their own companies or others - Olympus,
Chinon (Kodak), Fuji and others we do not know about yet.

An argument which one often sees surfacing here on dpReview is that
only Olympus have announced anything around this standard. Rest
assured, there is LOTS more going on behind the scenes at these and
other companies, than what is being announced on the internet.

Fuji, for example may still be locked (legally) into camera deals
with Nikon - sharing of designs etc. for the moment, which prevents
them from immediately releasing cameras based on this standard.
This is conjecture, on my part, I might add.

This risk of investing into the 4/3 system, I think can be laid to
rest.

ColesKIng
--
Geoffrey Selzer - Nikon 4500 - Nikon N90
 
One factor to consider is the weather sealing, ergonomics, and build quality of the Olympus E-1 body, one of the reasons I chose the E-1 sytem.

Not necessarily big factors for some, but for me these were a huge factor.

Essentially every current DSLR would give a non professional like myself acceptable image quality in real use (not shooting grey cards at ISO 3200) and the Olympus just offered features not available anywhere else at the price, plus superb lens.

The other "splash proof" DSLR offerings are much more expensive, especially since Canon replaced the 1D with a newer model costing over $1000 more. A pro quality feel and build, and weather sealing shouldn't mean a $3000 plus price, and it doesn't, Olympus brought us the E-1. The from the ground up digital design, smaller fast digital lens and 4/3 sensor may be a little too far ahead of it's time, given the current players in the marketplace, or it might be right on track, time will tell.

I remember 1979, when I got my XK Motor Minolta, people said "a non-removable motor drive, what were they thinking?".

I say buy the E-1, welcome to the future.
Olympus dares to be different, just like before with the OM series.

I suspect that if Nikon offered an upgraded D-100 with weather sealing and "pro" feel, bundled with a DX zoom lens for only a little more than the E-1 14-54 Zuiko combo, they'd sell every one they could make.

Edwin
 
Karaya-

You need to evaluate your choices based on the entire camera system: camera + lenses + accessories. You will probably replace your camera body within 3 years, but you will have the lenses and more for 5-10. Besided the fact that the Canon 10D to me is comperable or better in most aspects to the Oly E-1, Its clear to me that 30 years of excellent Canon lenses makes it the best choice.

While the 3/4 lens system is a good idea right now, I hardly think it will establish an optical legacy of 30+ years.

Another thing I have clearly learned through several expensive hobbies-you will learn to make better equipment choices as your skills improve. So buy your gear in stages, a little at a time, and get to know it wel, instead of blowing your wad on everything up front.

-Scott
Hello all.I hope that someone with more experiance can help me make
up my mind.I have been researching DSLRs for many months now.I have
been to my local dealer to examine the Canon 300d and 10d,as well
as the Olympus E-1.The 300d is aimed at people like me,someone who
wants to make the jump from digital point and shoots to a DSLR
without breaking the bank,but it looks and feels 'cheap' to me.It
may be a good value for the money but by the time you build a 'kit'
around it you will still have spent thousands of dollars while
being stuck with a 'cheap'feeling camera.This leaves the E-1 and
10d,both of wich feel right in my hands(I have big hands)and seem
to be well built.Allow me to explain where I am at and what I want
to do:
What I have; Kodak DC-290 2MP bought new in '99,wife just bought
Canon A-80 4MP, Dell 8250 2.4 pent4,20" fp2000 lcd,HP 882c
printer,using Microsoft picture it premium photo edition.XP home.

What I have been doing; casual family point and shoot stuff and
vacation photologs.On a recent trip to Germany I ran into the
limitations of my old DC-290.In museums shots without a flash were
a challenge even with .5 second exposures.Macro shots of insects
comprimised by lack of close focus,long shots of birds left me
wanting more reach.Despite all this I did bring home a treasure of
nice shots!I mostly like to look at photos on my monitor as
'slideshows',occassianaly print out keepers as 8x10s.I have worked
with jpegs only.Not sure if I want to deal with RAW.

What I want to do;As above.I want a camera that will be easy to use
for the P&S everyday snapshots but will also serve for delving into
more nature photography.Macro and long telephoto-the birds and the
bees.

What I would like to get;A versatile DSLR kit,body,2
lenses,flash,tripod,bag.Upgrade to Adobe photoshop Elements 2 and a
better printer,leaning towards dye thermal,Canon cp-200 or Oly 440.

What I like about the Oly E-10;Sealed body and lenses along with
self cleaning sensor.I treat my cameras with care but when
something costs this much should it not be able to stand up to a
little dust and moisture?Well integrated system,body,lenses,flash
all work and play wll together.Lenses,14-54 and 50-200 covers the
whole range of 28-400 in 35mm eqv. with 2 compact lenses and 2.8
-3.5 apperture!


What I like about the Cannon 10d;Scene modes,seems like a good way
for a neophyte to take good shots while learning the ropes.Huge
selection of lenses,including many IS models.Somewhat less
expensive accessories,grip,flash etc.Pop up flash.Works well with
exra fine jpegs.

What I have for a budget;I am receiving a tax refund of ~$7600 but
I would feel silly blowing it all on a camera at this stage of the
hobby.The less the better.

Options:
Go for broke pro grade Oly system;body 1799,14-54 lens 500,50-200
$1000,FL-50 flash 500,mem card 150,grip 500,tripod 150.bag
100,p-440 printer(8x10 dye thermal) 500.-300 for clunker trade
in=~$4899

Economical Canon 10d system;body 1500,28-135 IS lens 450,550EX
flash 350,mem card 150,grip 350,tripod 150,bag 100,cp-200
printer(4x6 dye thermal) 200=~$3250.

I am getting a sore butt from sitting on the fence.Does anyone
having any insights or wisdom to share to help me decide?I am sure
either camera is way more capable then I will ever be.I like them
both.The oly seems like the more complte system,and more rugged,but
the canon could save me some serious $.Thanks for reading this long
rant and thanks for any advice!
 
Besided the fact that the Canon 10D to me is
comperable or better in most aspects to the Oly E-1, Its clear to
me that 30 years of excellent Canon lenses makes it the best choice.
Whoa! Let's get specific. I'll grant that the 10D has less noise at ISO 800 and above. But in what other specifc areas is the 10D comparable or better than the Olympus E-1?

1. Is the 10D weather sealed against rain and dust?

2. Does the 10D have a viewfinder that shows 100% of the imaging area, and have user interchangeable focusing screens?

3. Does the 10D have an anti-dust mechanism, which eliminates the need for sensor cleaning?

4. Does the 10D have in-camera pixel mapping, which eliminates the need to send the camera in to a service center for this purpose?

5. Does the 10D have an autofocus assist lamp, which allows it to focus accurately in complete darkness?

6. Does the 10D have a micro-prism focusing screen and focus-by-wire manual focusing, which enables very precise manual focusing?

7. Does the 10D have precisely accurate Auto White Balance indoors, and a 1-button push custom white balance procedure?

8. Does the 10D have available a zoom lens which covers a 35mm SLR equivalent range of 28-108mm, of all metal construction, weather sealed, aspherical elements, providing edge-to-edge sharpness, razor sharp wide open, zero chromatic aberation, can focus down to 8 inches, and selling for less than $500?

9. Does the 10D offer TTL flash metering so accurate and so simple that your mother could get perfect results the first time she tried using it?

10. Does the 10D produce images that are usable straight out of the camera, which require no post-processing whatsoever?

11. Does the 10D allow updates of the firmware in the camera body, the lenses and the flash units with a direct Internet connection?

I've only begun to scratch the surface of what the Olympus E-1 can do which the Canon 10D can not. Let's get specific. Tell us how the Canon 10D is "comparable or better in most respects" than the Olympus E-1.

The truth is, the Canon 10D is so far behind the Olympus E-1 in technology that it can never catch up - until the lens mount (which was designed 16 years ago for 35mm film cameras) is changed. And when that happens, it will become evident that all the money immediately invested in 35mm film camera lenses was mis-spent. With a zoom lens attached, the Olympus E-1 is smaller, lighter and less expensive than the Canon 10D. So to be a happy Canon 10D buyer, one really must have a lot of faith in out-dated technology.

Gene Windell
l
 

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