Nikon at PMA product announcements

Carl Feather · Feb 10, 2004

Frankly, I'm thankful that I'll never be a good enough photographer that I will need Canon and it's constant stream of new products necessary to generate the image that I otherwise am not capable of generating with such outmoded Nikon equipment.

I can still use an 4Fs for my film camera and love the result. It does all I need it to do. I don't need an F6, or even an F5, all because my skills don't require them.

The D2H will be all the digital camera I'll ever need. If I need more megapixels, I'll buy one of the medium format systems people are ditching.

What is it these people want from Nikon? More megapixels? Remember, we're still dealing with 35mm format lenses here. More dynamic range? As someone who shot slide film for 30 years, I learned that you get exposure right or don't get it at all. You live with the limitations of the tools, and that includes price.

I can't afford to buy a new camera every two years. A lot of pros can't, either. I'm fine with Nikon. I'm thrilled with my D2H. I just wish I had more time to use it.

--
Carl Feather
Photographer/Writer
D2H, Nikkor lenses only

Ron Frank · Feb 10, 2004

Shutzman said:
It seems like Nikon gave up on the high-end long time ago. Ever
since the D1X came out (more than 3 years ago), it never tried to
catch up to Canon's 1Ds (11MP full frame). Seems like they don't
have the resources to invest in R&D like Canon does. The best
proof, is a sub-par D2H, and I don't care what any owner of that
cam says, it is a 4MP camera, it is a pure PJ camera with a CCD
developed by Nikon which seem to have some problems as well and I
don't want to repeat them again. Obviously the Canon Mark II, even
for $1500 more is couple of leagues above.

If you own a D2h, then please post images of this low end product. Meanwhile professionals like Moose Peterson are heaping praise on the camera, and most OWNERS love the D2H.

The Canon Mark II is NOT available, and just anounced. How can you make judgements? You're basing the entire argument on MPIX counts and hype.

Shutzman said:
Look at this: Canon has 2X 6MP (300D, 10D), 1X 8MP (Mark II), 1X
11MP (full frame, 1Ds) and a bargain $2800 for a 4.15MP (1D).

The 1D is discontinued, and the Mark II is NOT available, but not sure what point you are making.

Shutzman said:
Nikon thinks the low consumer end is the key to their financial
health, but it seem like that is suffering too. I think they would
consolidate and probably will be bought out by Fuji or someone else.

Nikon's problems do not stem from a lack of products, but rather a lack of production. They chose to outsource many of the parts and manufacturing. Canon builds more inhouse. In a different market, Nikon's approach COULD have been a better choice, but as things stand, Canon's inhouse approch has provided flexibility that Nikon currently does not have.

It's more about business than about R&D, and camera design. The bottom line is that Nikon is NOT keeping up with production.

Shutzman said:
Is this a good analogy: Nikon tries to be the Apple of photography
(5% market share) Vs. Canon - Microsoft? no it's not, because Apple
always comes up with the greatest products (even if short lived).

Poor analogy as Apple is in the HARDWARE manufacturing business, and Microsoft is not.

Shutzman said:
I still like my D100 and my lenses and hoping for some better
future products from Nikon nonetheless.

If a D2x came out tomorrow for $7k with a 16 mpix sensor would YOU buy it? I seriously doubt it.... But it's really fun to complain about the lack of Nikon products that you would not purchase, yes?

Ron

Marco Birri · Feb 10, 2004

My guess would be that the D2X was designed with a high rez lbcast sensor and when they saw how noisy the 4mp version was, they just decided to wait for an improved version, so the D2X is ready to ship if you want it, but there's no sensor in it...

Walter Freiberger said:
There must be something wrong with the D2x. I guess they had it
ready as an 8mp, 4fps camera and saw that this wouldn't be enough
compared to the Canon MKII. No let's hope they redesign it as 8mp,
8fps and rather as a follow up for the D2H than a complement. If
there's a big enough price diffenrence between D2H and a 8mp/8fps
D2X the D2H can stay in the market as a pure PJ camera.

A reason for this is also the fact that it comes almost a full
later than the D2H as things look now.

Regards
Walter

Bermuda8 · Feb 10, 2004

Agree with you Carl. I hope to collect D2H tomorrow having been on a wait list since mid December. (UK had a major non supply problem for a bit). What I have missed to date from digital until now is the responsiveness/shutter lag comapred to F5.

I was tempted to offload my Hasseblad but am going to keep that for Black & White portrait sessions and have the printing done at an old style pro printer. Still think the results from that are just magic and are unlikely to be equalled at an affordable price any time soon. I actually dusted off a developing tank last night and processed a couple of films which gave quite a buzz! This equipment is seriously cheap now!

I expect the D2H to adequately (brilliantly) fulfill all my other requirements for at least a couple of years!

Phil

Carl Feather said:
Frankly, I'm thankful that I'll never be a good enough photographer
that I will need Canon and it's constant stream of new products
necessary to generate the image that I otherwise am not capable of
generating with such outmoded Nikon equipment.

I can still use an 4Fs for my film camera and love the result. It
does all I need it to do. I don't need an F6, or even an F5, all
because my skills don't require them.

The D2H will be all the digital camera I'll ever need. If I need
more megapixels, I'll buy one of the medium format systems people
are ditching.

What is it these people want from Nikon? More megapixels? Remember,
we're still dealing with 35mm format lenses here. More dynamic
range? As someone who shot slide film for 30 years, I learned that
you get exposure right or don't get it at all. You live with the
limitations of the tools, and that includes price.

I can't afford to buy a new camera every two years. A lot of pros
can't, either. I'm fine with Nikon. I'm thrilled with my D2H. I
just wish I had more time to use it.

--
Carl Feather
Photographer/Writer
D2H, Nikkor lenses only

jeff-c · Feb 10, 2004

Canon:

Digital SLR Cameras

1D Mk II

Lenses

EF 28-300/3.5-5.6L IS USM

EF 70-300/4.5-5.6DO IS USM

Digital Compact Cameras

PowerShot Pro 1

PowerShot S1 IS

PowerShot A75

PowerShot A310

PowerShot S430

PowerShot S500

PowerShot SD110

Film Cameras

Elan 7N/7NE (EOS 30V/33V)

Software

Canon Data Verification Kit DVK-E2

Nikon:

Digital SLR Cameras
D70

Lenses
AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED

Speedlights
SB-600

Digital Compact Cameras
COOLPIX 8700

COOLPIX 3200

COOLPIX 2200

Film Scanners
SUPER COOLSCAN 9000 ED

SUPER COOLSCAN 5000 ED

COOLSCAN V ED

Digital Photo Storage Viewer
COOLWALKER MSV-01

Software
PictureProject

Alright, so Canon is 12 and Nikon is 11, Nikon loses, right?

Give me a break.

David Rosser · Feb 10, 2004

Ron Frank said:
Shutzman said:

It seems like Nikon gave up on the high-end long time ago. Ever
since the D1X came out (more than 3 years ago), it never tried to
catch up to Canon's 1Ds (11MP full frame). Seems like they don't
have the resources to invest in R&D like Canon does. The best
proof, is a sub-par D2H, and I don't care what any owner of that
cam says, it is a 4MP camera, it is a pure PJ camera with a CCD
developed by Nikon which seem to have some problems as well and I
don't want to repeat them again. Obviously the Canon Mark II, even
for $1500 more is couple of leagues above.

Click to expand...

If you own a D2h, then please post images of this low end
product. Meanwhile professionals like Moose Peterson are heaping
praise on the camera, and most OWNERS love the D2H.

The Canon Mark II is NOT available, and just anounced. How can you
make judgements? You're basing the entire argument on MPIX counts
and hype.

Ron Frank said:

Look at this: Canon has 2X 6MP (300D, 10D), 1X 8MP (Mark II), 1X
11MP (full frame, 1Ds) and a bargain $2800 for a 4.15MP (1D).

Click to expand...

The 1D is discontinued, and the Mark II is NOT available, but not
sure what point you are making.

Ron Frank said:

Nikon thinks the low consumer end is the key to their financial
health, but it seem like that is suffering too. I think they would
consolidate and probably will be bought out by Fuji or someone else.

Click to expand...

Nikon's problems do not stem from a lack of products, but rather a
lack of production. They chose to outsource many of the parts and
manufacturing. Canon builds more inhouse. In a different market,
Nikon's approach COULD have been a better choice, but as things
stand, Canon's inhouse approch has provided flexibility that Nikon
currently does not have.

A small point but I think the lack of production facilities due to outsourcing applies more to the 5 Million plus coolpix cameras that nikon plan to produce to end March this year than the relativly few (against 5 Million 100,000 is a few if it's even that many) DSLR that will be produced. DSLR are crown jewels and Nikon will keep those in house.

Ron Frank said:
It's more about business than about R&D, and camera design. The
bottom line is that Nikon is NOT keeping up with production.

Ron Frank said:

Is this a good analogy: Nikon tries to be the Apple of photography
(5% market share) Vs. Canon - Microsoft? no it's not, because Apple
always comes up with the greatest products (even if short lived).

Click to expand...

Poor analogy as Apple is in the HARDWARE manufacturing business,
and Microsoft is not.

Ron Frank said:

I still like my D100 and my lenses and hoping for some better
future products from Nikon nonetheless.

Click to expand...

If a D2x came out tomorrow for $7k with a 16 mpix sensor would YOU
buy it? I seriously doubt it.... But it's really fun to complain
about the lack of Nikon products that you would not purchase, yes?

Ron

--
Dave
http://www.rosser.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

revaaron · Feb 10, 2004

honestly, it looks pretty darn even to me...
a 1D mark II to beat the D2H
a D70 to beat the 300D

both in markets that the other was too slow on.

nikon would win if it announed a d100s or a d2x
canon would win if it announec a 5D (I'm assuming 60D-> 30D-> 10D and 5D is next)

otherwise, same old some old from 2 companies still bleeding from hitting each other.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.returntothepit.com

pictures up within hours of the show

Marco Birri · Feb 10, 2004

I know what you mean by "not wanting to buy a new camera every 2 years" but as of now, it's more like 3, going on to 4 years !

+ That's not really the point either, I don't want to buy an OTHER camera, I want to buy my LAST camera. I need 10 mp at least, 4 fps at least and I'm gonna be the happiest guy on earth ! I'll never even come back here to look for new rumors on future products since I'll have what I need from there on !

But frankly, I look at my D1X right now, and I can't seem to get all that I can from it. My plan up to now is when business is gonna start rolling in a lot, I'm gonna have to switch ! not to canon, to film ! even canon doesn't offer me what I need right now (although it seems, by reading an other forum, that they will by next fall). Right now, only scanned film will give me what I need for the big projects. (scanners give me more than I need actually)

SO what I'm waiting for is a last camera. I don't mean to say that I won't buy a "D3X" or "D4X", cause eventually the D2X will fail and I'll need the one that will be "available" then. But I wont NEED it, there's the difference.

Carl Feather said:
Frankly, I'm thankful that I'll never be a good enough photographer
that I will need Canon and it's constant stream of new products
necessary to generate the image that I otherwise am not capable of
generating with such outmoded Nikon equipment.

I can still use an 4Fs for my film camera and love the result. It
does all I need it to do. I don't need an F6, or even an F5, all
because my skills don't require them.

The D2H will be all the digital camera I'll ever need. If I need
more megapixels, I'll buy one of the medium format systems people
are ditching.

What is it these people want from Nikon? More megapixels? Remember,
we're still dealing with 35mm format lenses here. More dynamic
range? As someone who shot slide film for 30 years, I learned that
you get exposure right or don't get it at all. You live with the
limitations of the tools, and that includes price.

I can't afford to buy a new camera every two years. A lot of pros
can't, either. I'm fine with Nikon. I'm thrilled with my D2H. I
just wish I had more time to use it.

--
Carl Feather
Photographer/Writer
D2H, Nikkor lenses only

Marco Birri · Feb 10, 2004

Flawed reasoning, the 30D came before the 60D... there for the next D will have to be 20D hehehehehe

revaaron said:
honestly, it looks pretty darn even to me...
a 1D mark II to beat the D2H
a D70 to beat the 300D

both in markets that the other was too slow on.

nikon would win if it announed a d100s or a d2x
canon would win if it announec a 5D (I'm assuming 60D-> 30D-> 10D and
5D is next)

otherwise, same old some old from 2 companies still bleeding from
hitting each other.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.returntothepit.com

pictures up within hours of the show

fotogenetic · Feb 10, 2004

lasm said:
It will be a sad day if Nikon really believes that.. because by the
time D70 came out, prices of the 300d would have dropped by half,
making it even more attractive for Nikonites to jump ship.

So you predict that in about one month, the 300D will drop to $499? The D70 is expected to come out sometime next month or soon after. I doubt the 300D will drop so much.

lasm said:
Going by the Canon announcemnets, there will be so many choices in
Canon that they will surely outgun Nikon, yet again... Been to one
trade fair last year, and the largest crowd was in which stall ?
Canon of course..
--
http://gallery29564.fotopic.net/

--
http://fotogenetic.dearingfilm.com
http://www.pbase.com/atmabini

fotogenetic · Feb 10, 2004

Lasm,

Whenever I read the comments of people on this forum, I take a look at their gallery to give me an idea of their credibility. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any of your photographs, just photos of your 300D accessories and test shots of dollar bills and coins. I did find two shots of a model, but do you have any more?

lasm said:
saaketham1 said:

Guys,
Nikon's not known to introduce numerous digital models every year -
hell, it took them so many months to announce a successor to the
already nice 5700. So, they're happy with the best entry-level DSLR
so far, which will probably even replace the D100 - the D70. And
its so much better (in specs, even though it only starts at ISO
200) than the 300D.

Click to expand...

They are always playing catch up with Canon... so much for
leadership..
They have lost a good lot of faithful people who have dumped their
Nikon gears for Canon after getting sick of waiting...

And what is the dslr model they are selling at PMA ?? Paperware...
empty promises of D70 delivery... Nikon really sucks

--
http://gallery29564.fotopic.net/

--
http://fotogenetic.dearingfilm.com
http://www.pbase.com/atmabini

rbutka · Feb 10, 2004

lasm said:
saaketham1 said:

Guys,
Nikon's not known to introduce numerous digital models every year -
hell, it took them so many months to announce a successor to the
already nice 5700. So, they're happy with the best entry-level DSLR
so far, which will probably even replace the D100 - the D70. And
its so much better (in specs, even though it only starts at ISO
200) than the 300D.

Click to expand...

They are always playing catch up with Canon... so much for
leadership..

Who said they are playing catch up. This is what you think it is. If you have and use Nikon, and take great picture/images/memeories, what do you care what the competition is doing. Their will alway be new equipment on the horizon.

lasm said:
They have lost a good lot of faithful people who have dumped their
Nikon gears for Canon after getting sick of waiting...

Well I happen to be one who uses and support their system.

lasm said:
And what is the dslr model they are selling at PMA ?? Paperware...
empty promises of D70 delivery... Nikon really sucks

lasm said:
LASM,

Do us a favor, if you not happy, sell your equipment and move on to another company and another forum. You as well as others consistantly complain about Nikon, If you do not understandand their philosophy and system, and do not like their product, get rid of it. I have been using Nikon for over 20 years and have found it to be an excellent tool. You are the one who will create good or bad picture/images/memeories. Understand the tool. become a better photographer. I still use my Manual Nikon film gear with my D2H.

Bye Bye!
Robert

lasm said:
--
http://gallery29564.fotopic.net/

--
R.J. Butka

Ed Nazarko · Feb 10, 2004

if Nikon turned out an 8mp SLR with a high frame rate and low noise and the feature set of the D1x, and priced it at $900 and sold it at Sears, and ONLY made that one camera - I'll bet they'd sell a bazillion of them; the volume of a fully-pro-capable camera could really drive the price down.

However, no pro would want one even if it beat all the Canon features, since it wouldn't be pricey enough or have prestige.

Iliah Borg said:
Iliah Borg said:

there will be so many choices in Canon

Click to expand...

Too many choices can scare people away, you know...

--
no text

--
Ed

Make pictures, don't take them - it leaves more for others.

http://www.onemountainphoto.com

PeaceFrog · Feb 10, 2004

Would you care to share your gallery? I would love to see the photos of such a seasoned expert as yourself.

Thanks,

Greg

Ron Frank said:
I reviewed your photos . I would suggest you work on your
photography skills rather than trolling... You have a LOT to learn
about photography......

Ron

Shutzman · Feb 10, 2004

Ron Frank said:
Shutzman said:

It seems like Nikon gave up on the high-end long time ago. Ever
since the D1X came out (more than 3 years ago), it never tried to
catch up to Canon's 1Ds (11MP full frame). Seems like they don't
have the resources to invest in R&D like Canon does. The best
proof, is a sub-par D2H, and I don't care what any owner of that
cam says, it is a 4MP camera, it is a pure PJ camera with a CCD
developed by Nikon which seem to have some problems as well and I
don't want to repeat them again. Obviously the Canon Mark II, even
for $1500 more is couple of leagues above.

Click to expand...

If you own a D2h, then please post images of this low end
product. Meanwhile professionals like Moose Peterson are heaping
praise on the camera, and most OWNERS love the D2H.

The Canon Mark II is NOT available, and just anounced. How can you
make judgements? You're basing the entire argument on MPIX counts
and hype.

Well, I will give you that, the Mark II has not been tested yet, but on paper it looks way better than the D2H. Let's wait and see.

I didn't say the D2H was low-end, it is probably the best production PJ DSLR on the market today, but nevertheless, if you want to do much cropping, megapixels do count. Sometimes I use only a quarter of the image, because it was taken under tough conditions, I do need lots of cropping.

Ron Frank said:
Ron Frank said:

Look at this: Canon has 2X 6MP (300D, 10D), 1X 8MP (Mark II), 1X
11MP (full frame, 1Ds) and a bargain $2800 for a 4.15MP (1D).

Click to expand...

The 1D is discontinued, and the Mark II is NOT available, but not
sure what point you are making.

The point I am making is that Canon has more variety in its arsenal and therefore can develop a wider customer base. Epecially at the high-end high-priced models.

Ron Frank said:
Ron Frank said:

Nikon thinks the low consumer end is the key to their financial
health, but it seem like that is suffering too. I think they would
consolidate and probably will be bought out by Fuji or someone else.

Click to expand...

Nikon's problems do not stem from a lack of products, but rather a
lack of production. They chose to outsource many of the parts and
manufacturing. Canon builds more inhouse. In a different market,
Nikon's approach COULD have been a better choice, but as things
stand, Canon's inhouse approch has provided flexibility that Nikon
currently does not have.

It's more about business than about R&D, and camera design. The
bottom line is that Nikon is NOT keeping up with production.

One mistake leads to many problems, not enough production, not enough sales, not enough money to invest back in R&D. It took Nikon a long time to develop their own ccd.

Ron Frank said:
Ron Frank said:

Is this a good analogy: Nikon tries to be the Apple of photography
(5% market share) Vs. Canon - Microsoft? no it's not, because Apple
always comes up with the greatest products (even if short lived).

Click to expand...

Poor analogy as Apple is in the HARDWARE manufacturing business,
and Microsoft is not.

Not totally accurate. Microsoft is making the XBOX, some mice and more and Apple is making iPhoto, iVideo, iTunes and many other high-end software products that mainly (but not exclusively) work on their own hardware.

Ron Frank said:
Ron Frank said:

I still like my D100 and my lenses and hoping for some better
future products from Nikon nonetheless.

Click to expand...

If a D2x came out tomorrow for $7k with a 16 mpix sensor would YOU
buy it? I seriously doubt it.... But it's really fun to complain
about the lack of Nikon products that you would not purchase, yes?

If I made my living solely from photography, I probably would get the d2X. If not the D2X, what makes you think I wouldn't buy the D200, if it was available? Believe me it is not fun to complain and I havn't done it to date, it is just seeing that the system I have is in jeopardy of lagging behind the technology. If my d100 can go for 100,000 shutter clicks, I'd probably be using it for another year or two, until a reasonably priced replacement shows up, so I am not really waiting for much right now. If the shutter breaks before, I will have a dilemma.

I will be at PMA though to check the new stuff, so you can't say I am not serious about photography.

Ron Frank said:
Ron

T3 · Feb 10, 2004

I don't think Nikon's problem is too many choices that is scaring people away. It's the lack of choice and offerings that is making people move away and go elsewhere.

Iliah Borg said:
Iliah Borg said:

there will be so many choices in Canon

Click to expand...

Too many choices can scare people away, you know...

--
no text

Petre · Feb 10, 2004

Only one is gonna win ..... In this case the D70 is gonna be the big dog that wins the show.

Who wants to bet it's the hit of the show ?

Marco Birri said:
http://nikonimaging.com/global/activity/pma/2004/pma04product.htm

Here's the sad, but true listing of Nikon equipment to be shown to
the public at this year's PMA. I don't think they'll add anything
since they never did previously when this page was sent to their
web site.

Tough luck, D2X yet to be announced !

Well at least there's still the D70 that's coming

Iliah Borg · Feb 10, 2004

T3 said:
I don't think...

--
no text

T3 · Feb 10, 2004

Maybe the other problem Nikon has is that they are filled with stubborn "head in the sand" people like yourself who would rather laugh off any critical discussion rather than take a look at what's really going on.

Jamie Benaud · Feb 10, 2004

T3 said:
Maybe the other problem Nikon has is that they are filled with
stubborn "head in the sand" people like yourself who would rather
laugh off any critical discussion rather than take a look at what's
really going on.

Maybe Canon's problem is that it has more trolls than a Disney cartoon who spend more time posting uninformed, incisive comments in forums that they have already been banned from twice.

Keep it up Peter, and you'll have to think of yet another alias. Go back to the Canon forums and stop spreading FUD here.

--
Jamie

http://homepage.mac.com/sitehost/penrithfire

Nikon at PMA product announcements

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Member

jeff-c

Guest

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-known member

Ed Nazarko

Guest

Forum Pro

Senior Member

Forum Pro

Member

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Senior Member

Keyboard shortcuts