Canon goes SD

JohanX5 · Feb 5, 2004

I kind a like the idea of wazza. I also own allready some devices that use SD, so if I don´t have to invest in CF, by using a CF adapter that would be a fine solution for me. As long as speed doesn´t go down...?

By the way Joe, how can you lose data from an SD card. You mentioned radiation and.. something else, but when are SD cards exposed to that.

I´m planning to buy my first digital camera, but want to wait untill I know what comes out on PMA for new canon models. I really like s400, and that will be my choise if they are not comming up with something really better. Only this uses CF, and so wazza´s solution would work great for me.

I also think that an eventual new s400 will also be much more expensive, at least here in the Netherlands.

Johan

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
wazza said:

and if I couild figure out how to shove a CF into my phone, my vid
cam my Tungten I might buy some.

I'd rather use my CF SD adpator for my sole CF device and future
proof with SD cards

Click to expand...

And that's totally fine. You've just defined parameters (the need
to swap memory with devices too small for CF) that make it the
right choice for you.

That is sufficient. It meets your needs, so no one is going to
disrespect you for using it.

There simply is no need for the rest of your "CF is yesterday's
technology" spiel.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

No SD memory loss here in last two years

Click to expand...

Congrats. There are a lot of people who will never have an SD
problem. There are a lot who will never have a CF problem. But we
can expect a higher percentage of SD users to have problems,
compared to CF.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

AdamW · Feb 5, 2004

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
The higher capacity versions of "chicklet" memory like SD, xD, and
Memory Stick use multilevel flash memory. CF cards do not use
multilevel memory.

Multilevel memory is slower than two level memory (it requires
analog circuitry to read or write), the data retention is not as
long, and the data can be corrupted by low levels of radiation or
static (ESD) that will not bother the type of data used in CF cards.

I could be wrong here -- this sounds quite similar to all the bluff about L2 cache, L3 cache, blah blah..
--
swatchhustler from the S.P.F.

AdamW · Feb 5, 2004

Meryl Arbing said:
Scroll down to their 'Trends" section near the bottom of the page
and look for the headline: "As flash memory sales grow, some
formats lose out"

I agree with this statement, but I don't agree with the rest:

Meryl Arbing said:
[snip]

'Two memory formats will survive: Memory Stick and SD',

The only practical reason why Memory Stick will survive is an illogical one, the same one (BetaMax) that took Sony over a decade to admit it's finished: Continued support of a proprietary format, used by nobody but Sony and a select few. Otherwise, here is the result:

"Effective January 1, 2005, all new Sony products will no longer support Memory Stick, Memory Stick Pro, Memory Stick Duo, and Memory Stick Duo Pro, as well as MagicGate versions of Memory Stick. We will continue to provide technical support for products using these formats.

A public service announcement sponsored by Sony Corporation."

In layman's terms, "Sorry, we screwed up with your money."
--
swatchhustler from the S.P.F.

wazza · Feb 5, 2004

my post was referring to CF SD adpators - swiss army - u r weird

AdamW said:
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:

The higher capacity versions of "chicklet" memory like SD, xD, and
Memory Stick use multilevel flash memory. CF cards do not use
multilevel memory.

Multilevel memory is slower than two level memory (it requires
analog circuitry to read or write), the data retention is not as
long, and the data can be corrupted by low levels of radiation or
static (ESD) that will not bother the type of data used in CF cards.

Click to expand...

I could be wrong here -- this sounds quite similar to all the bluff
about L2 cache, L3 cache, blah blah..
--
swatchhustler from the S.P.F.

wazza · Feb 5, 2004

u idiot - did you even read was this thread was about - it was on the CF/SD adpators

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
wazza said:

What can go wrong

An extra set of contacts but not much else I can see

Click to expand...

I'm sorry that you can't see. It's been explained often enough.

The higher capacity versions of "chicklet" memory like SD, xD, and
Memory Stick use multilevel flash memory. CF cards do not use
multilevel memory.

Multilevel memory is slower than two level memory (it requires
analog circuitry to read or write), the data retention is not as
long, and the data can be corrupted by low levels of radiation or
static (ESD) that will not bother the type of data used in CF cards.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

wazza · Feb 5, 2004

Toshiba’s High Speed SD Memory Cards are based on Single Level Cell (SLC) NAND Flash technology, which stores one bit per cell, and utilize an optimized controller combined with large block NAND technology to achieve high data transfer rates. Toshiba’s standard SD Memory Cards range in performance from 32MB to 512MB featuring Multi-Level Cell (MLC) NAND Flash from 64MB to 512MB. MLC NAND Flash allows each memory cell to store two bits of information, compared to one bit-per-cell for SLC NAND Flash, and provides excellent cost/performance value well-suited for use with a wide range of low to high-end digital still cameras, video cameras, cell phones, USB Flash drives, car navigation systems, electronic books and MP3 players.

you are a bit out of date

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
wazza said:

What can go wrong

An extra set of contacts but not much else I can see

Click to expand...

I'm sorry that you can't see. It's been explained often enough.

The higher capacity versions of "chicklet" memory like SD, xD, and
Memory Stick use multilevel flash memory. CF cards do not use
multilevel memory.

Multilevel memory is slower than two level memory (it requires
analog circuitry to read or write), the data retention is not as
long, and the data can be corrupted by low levels of radiation or
static (ESD) that will not bother the type of data used in CF cards.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S Wisniewski · Feb 5, 2004

wazza said:
u idiot - did you even read was this thread was about - it was on
the CF/SD adpators

There is no better way to win an argument than to call someone an idiot. You have proven, categorically, your superior knowledge and skills.

I bow to the mighty Wazza.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S Wisniewski · Feb 5, 2004

wazza said:
Toshiba’s High Speed SD Memory Cards are based on Single Level Cell
(SLC) NAND Flash technology, which stores one bit per cell, and
utilize an optimized controller combined with large block NAND
technology to achieve high data transfer rates. Toshiba’s standard
SD Memory Cards range in performance from 32MB to 512MB featuring
Multi-Level Cell (MLC) NAND Flash from 64MB to 512MB. MLC NAND
Flash allows each memory cell to store two bits of information,
compared to one bit-per-cell for SLC NAND Flash, and provides
excellent cost/performance value well-suited for use with a wide
range of low to high-end digital still cameras, video cameras, cell
phones, USB Flash drives, car navigation systems, electronic books
and MP3 players.

you are a bit out of date

You're quoting data on 512 meg cards in a discussion about 4 gig cards.

You're not just a bit out of date, you're 3 entire generations out of date. At 18 months per doubling (Moore's law) you're 4.5 years out of date. That puts you back in 1999.

Wazza, you're in the wrong century.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S Wisniewski · Feb 5, 2004

JohanX5 said:
I kind a like the idea of wazza. I also own allready some devices
that use SD, so if I don´t have to invest in CF, by using a CF
adapter that would be a fine solution for me. As long as speed
doesn´t go down...?

Then you'd better benchmark the SD to CF adapter. Some of them are dogs, can't even make 1 meg/sec.

If you're looking at S400, that won't be much of a problem, it's internal transfer rate (processor to flash) isn't much over 1 meg/sec.

JohanX5 said:
By the way Joe, how can you lose data from an SD card. You
mentioned radiation and.. something else, but when are SD cards
exposed to that.

Radiation is around us constantly. The "something else" is ESD (electrostatic discharge), the normal little static zaps you get just moving around, or "abusing" a card by putting it in a camera or computer.

SD is very succeptable to it. We can't get SD certified to automotive ESD levels. We can get CF.

JohanX5 said:
I´m planning to buy my first digital camera, but want to wait
untill I know what comes out on PMA for new canon models. I really
like s400, and that will be my choise if they are not comming up
with something really better.

Good choice, I love my S400.

JohanX5 said:
Only this uses CF, and so wazza´s
solution would work great for me.

I also think that an eventual new s400 will also be much more
expensive, at least here in the Netherlands.

Sounds like everything is...

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

wazza · Feb 5, 2004

Toshiba use the same technology for their 4gb card which is to be realeased in September. Lexar already use this

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
wazza said:

Toshiba’s High Speed SD Memory Cards are based on Single Level Cell
(SLC) NAND Flash technology, which stores one bit per cell, and
utilize an optimized controller combined with large block NAND
technology to achieve high data transfer rates. Toshiba’s standard
SD Memory Cards range in performance from 32MB to 512MB featuring
Multi-Level Cell (MLC) NAND Flash from 64MB to 512MB. MLC NAND
Flash allows each memory cell to store two bits of information,
compared to one bit-per-cell for SLC NAND Flash, and provides
excellent cost/performance value well-suited for use with a wide
range of low to high-end digital still cameras, video cameras, cell
phones, USB Flash drives, car navigation systems, electronic books
and MP3 players.

you are a bit out of date

Click to expand...

You're quoting data on 512 meg cards in a discussion about 4 gig
cards.

You're not just a bit out of date, you're 3 entire generations out
of date. At 18 months per doubling (Moore's law) you're 4.5 years
out of date. That puts you back in 1999.

Wazza, you're in the wrong century.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

wazza · Feb 5, 2004

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
wazza said:

u idiot - did you even read was this thread was about - it was on
the CF/SD adpators

Click to expand...

There is no better way to win an argument than to call someone an
idiot. You have proven, categorically, your superior knowledge and
skills.

I bow to the mighty Wazza.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

JohanX5 · Feb 5, 2004

Thanks for your reply and clear explanation. If SD is so sensitive, then I maybe will stick to CF, is getting very cheap anyway. I don´t know yet what I will do with that. But I am quite sure about the camera. If canon doesn´t bring out anything spectacular, or it takes to long to be available I will buy the s400
Thanks again

Johan

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
JohanX5 said:

I kind a like the idea of wazza. I also own allready some devices
that use SD, so if I don´t have to invest in CF, by using a CF
adapter that would be a fine solution for me. As long as speed
doesn´t go down...?

Click to expand...

Then you'd better benchmark the SD to CF adapter. Some of them are
dogs, can't even make 1 meg/sec.

If you're looking at S400, that won't be much of a problem, it's
internal transfer rate (processor to flash) isn't much over 1
meg/sec.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

By the way Joe, how can you lose data from an SD card. You
mentioned radiation and.. something else, but when are SD cards
exposed to that.

Click to expand...

Radiation is around us constantly. The "something else" is ESD
(electrostatic discharge), the normal little static zaps you get
just moving around, or "abusing" a card by putting it in a camera
or computer.

SD is very succeptable to it. We can't get SD certified to
automotive ESD levels. We can get CF.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

I´m planning to buy my first digital camera, but want to wait
untill I know what comes out on PMA for new canon models. I really
like s400, and that will be my choise if they are not comming up
with something really better.

Click to expand...

Good choice, I love my S400.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Only this uses CF, and so wazza´s
solution would work great for me.

I also think that an eventual new s400 will also be much more
expensive, at least here in the Netherlands.

Click to expand...

Sounds like everything is...

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

wazza · Feb 5, 2004

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
wazza said:

You are funny today.

My old 8086 has 3 times the chips my P IV has - thanks for the info.

Click to expand...

How is that relevant to this discussion.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

I gave you links to four companies selling via the net 4 gb cards.
I have one ordered for work.

Click to expand...

You gave four manufacturers who announced that they will be making
this. Not one that is actually shipping.

Where did you order yours from? How long has it been on backorder?

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

The CF is indeed larger but it's ageing technology.

don't limit your thinking by yesterdays technology

Click to expand...

Actually, it's quite the other way around. SD cards are the ones
using yesterday's technology. At one time, in the quest for
density, SanDisk was promoting CF cards that used multilevel flash.
The lack of speed and relaibility drove them from the market.

SD is making its gains where reliability and speed aren't as
important as size.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Meryl Arbing · Feb 6, 2004

Well, time will tell.

The 'proprietary' argument is getting pretty old now. I remember when Sony was roundly criticized for using 'proprietary' Lithium-Ion batteries even though they were technically superior to standard rechargables. People vowed NEVER to buy a camera that didn't use standard format Ni-cads. Guess what? Every manufacturer finally realized that the power requirements of their new cameras forced them to use 'proprietary' batteries and now nobody squawks about what battery a camera uses.

It will be the same with memory cards. There are still those who vow NEVER to buy a camera that doesn't have use the CF format cards. As if when God gave the 10 Commandments to Moses he didn't write them on stone tablets...He wrote them on CF cards, right?

The movement to SmartPhones which incorporate the features of a cellphone as well as a PDA will spell the end of the CF format because it is simply too bulky. Those devices are using SD card format! (Of course, Sony's version will use MS!) Oh, They also use 'proprietary' batteries!

Wait till these phone start to incorporate higher resolution digital camera technology and you will see the end of the dedicated consumer digital camera.

Digital camera manufacturers should take a page from the Compaq Ipaq PDA. I can expand my Ipaq with removable 'sleeves' that incorporate memory card slots. Right now, I'm using CF cards but I could easily move to SD cards or MS or even full PC Cards by simply changing the expansion sleeve.

Imagine a digital camera where you could pick whatever memorycard you preferred AND gave you extended battery life by having a backup battery in the 'sleeve'.

Could an expansion sleeve concept allow for upgrading a camera CCD as well? When we look at the Sony T1 and the prism system it uses to bend the light from the lens to the CCD we can see that there doesn't have to be an absolutely straight line to the sensor.

MY iPaq even has a sleeve that converts the whole PDA into a (pretty lousy) digital camera. Look at the Sony Clie which incorporates a simple digital camera in thier Palm based handheld.

AdamW said:
Meryl Arbing said:

Scroll down to their 'Trends" section near the bottom of the page
and look for the headline: "As flash memory sales grow, some
formats lose out"

Click to expand...

I agree with this statement, but I don't agree with the rest:

AdamW said:

[snip]

'Two memory formats will survive: Memory Stick and SD',

Click to expand...

The only practical reason why Memory Stick will survive is an
illogical one, the same one (BetaMax) that took Sony over a decade
to admit it's finished: Continued support of a proprietary format,
used by nobody but Sony and a select few. Otherwise, here is the
result:

"Effective January 1, 2005, all new Sony products will no longer
support Memory Stick, Memory Stick Pro, Memory Stick Duo, and
Memory Stick Duo Pro, as well as MagicGate versions of Memory
Stick. We will continue to provide technical support for products
using these formats.

A public service announcement sponsored by Sony Corporation."

In layman's terms, "Sorry, we screwed up with your money."
--
swatchhustler from the S.P.F.

Stephen Kovac Jr · Feb 7, 2004

I am hopping that Canon uses dual memory slots in their high price digital cameras, CF and SD memory slots so that we can use either memory card.

Stephen

wazza said:
To all those that said DSLR's would stay with CF - check out
Canon's move to SD

Cheers

Joseph S Wisniewski · Feb 7, 2004

Stephen Kovac Jr said:
I am hopping that Canon uses dual memory slots in their high price
digital cameras, CF and SD memory slots so that we can use either
memory card.

I'm betting that they don't. I think the whole SD card is a side effect of their use of "Secure Mobile" for the data verification product. SM is an encryption product that uses the SD card slot, so it can be used in mobile phones. After you go to the trouble of adding the SM/SD slot, you might as well use it for SD storage when it's not in use for SM.

But there really isn't much incentive for using the slower, more expensive, less reliable SD cards in the DSLR when you have CF availiable. By the time you pay for a few gigs of SD (People who shoot $4500 cameras do use a few gigs of CF. I use lowly D100 bodies, and I carry 7 gigs) you've paid to replace whatever SD using point-and-shoot camera you have with a CF camera, and still have hundreds of dollars in change in your pocket.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

wazza · Feb 7, 2004

Quoting yesterdays prices and yesterdays technology as usual.

New single layer SD's are faster, same price and as reliable. Given their adaptability to various devices, most flash memory companies focus their R&D dollars on SD now. Expect high capacity (16 gb are on sale), improved chip design etc etc

Size isn't everything (so she said).

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Stephen Kovac Jr said:

I am hopping that Canon uses dual memory slots in their high price
digital cameras, CF and SD memory slots so that we can use either
memory card.

Click to expand...

I'm betting that they don't. I think the whole SD card is a side
effect of their use of "Secure Mobile" for the data verification
product. SM is an encryption product that uses the SD card slot, so
it can be used in mobile phones. After you go to the trouble of
adding the SM/SD slot, you might as well use it for SD storage when
it's not in use for SM.

But there really isn't much incentive for using the slower, more
expensive, less reliable SD cards in the DSLR when you have CF
availiable. By the time you pay for a few gigs of SD (People who
shoot $4500 cameras do use a few gigs of CF. I use lowly D100
bodies, and I carry 7 gigs) you've paid to replace whatever SD
using point-and-shoot camera you have with a CF camera, and still
have hundreds of dollars in change in your pocket.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

synp · Feb 7, 2004

wazza said:
Quoting yesterdays prices and yesterdays technology as usual.

New single layer SD's are faster, same price and as reliable. Given
their adaptability to various devices, most flash memory companies
focus their R&D dollars on SD now. Expect high capacity (16 gb are
on sale), improved chip design etc etc

Size isn't everything (so she said).

I just checked at Adorama. Biggest SD card I could find was 512MB and it was selling for $170 from Sandisk. A 512MB CF card from the same mfg was $120, and cards were available up to 4G.

So I searched Google, and learned that Matsushita promised a 1GB by last October, and a 16GB by 2005. I went to their website. Surprise! Biggest available is still 512MB. I went to Sandisk website, and finally found a 1GB. Where did you find 16 giga-byte? I couldn't even find 16 giga-bit.

Larry Gauper · Feb 7, 2004

Wazza...interesting and timely news - as I watch all these switcheroos and formats in memory cards, it may be another reason to buy the Sony V-1 and go the memory stick route. At least they're staying above the fray on this flashcard memory stuff (and, you'll probably say, a above the CF price/cost too)....but the memory stick is a cleaner route to digital photo memory I'm starting to think.

Larry

wazza said:
To all those that said DSLR's would stay with CF - check out
Canon's move to SD

Cheers

wazza · Feb 7, 2004

SDC, Panasonic and Lexar all provide 4 gb cards to business and are on sale to corporate customers.

16 gb (Lexar) only on sale by corporate order.

Expect general public sale soon but given the size, don't expect to see it affordable by the average user. However, as we saw with memory 4 years ago, price drops of 50% happen with regularity.

I am by no means saying CF is dead. Indeed it is still the most affordable in terms on mb/$. CF is reliable and widely available.

For me however, with my other voice, image and storage devices with SD card need, I prefer that memory route. SD's size, speed and manufacturing focus have driven me in that direction.

Each to his own.

Cheers
.

Yoav Nir said:
wazza said:

Quoting yesterdays prices and yesterdays technology as usual.

New single layer SD's are faster, same price and as reliable. Given
their adaptability to various devices, most flash memory companies
focus their R&D dollars on SD now. Expect high capacity (16 gb are
on sale), improved chip design etc etc

Size isn't everything (so she said).

Click to expand...

I just checked at Adorama. Biggest SD card I could find was 512MB
and it was selling for $170 from Sandisk. A 512MB CF card from the
same mfg was $120, and cards were available up to 4G.

So I searched Google, and learned that Matsushita promised a 1GB by
last October, and a 16GB by 2005. I went to their website.
Surprise! Biggest available is still 512MB. I went to Sandisk
website, and finally found a 1GB. Where did you find 16 giga-byte?
I couldn't even find 16 giga-bit.

Canon goes SD

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