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new FinePix S20 Pro !!!

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I agree with you on most points. One question though. Why is everyone so sure that the S7000 and the S20 have the same lens design as the S602? Did Fuji say so? Are we inferring this because the focal legnth/element-group count hasn't changed?

There has been at least one post on this forum, I forget by whom, comparing his 602 images and his s7000 images, and the conclusion was that the S7000 has a larger "sweet spot," that is,sharper over a wider range of apertures.
Karl Günter Wünsch said:
ChromeDome said:
how-come they
feel the need to come down here and p* s on our parade?
Click to expand...
It's not that but the audacity of Fuji coming out with a model that
is nothing but a rip off. There is absolutely nothing new in the
S20Pro that they couldn't have done at the beginning of 2003.
They just didn't improve the things that matter besides the sensor.
It's still lacking in some areas, one of which is the lens which is
way overdue for an overhaul. Anyone who doesn't see it this way is
a dreamer... I owned two cameras with the same lens already: the
4900 and the 602Z. The 602Z to some degree was already over the
limit of the lenses capabilites, for example if you used f/9-f/11
that showed clear signs of diffraction. This is probably the reason
this is disabled in software on the newer models.
So tell me what is so brilliant about this $999 camera that it
hold's up to something like the Sony 828 (which - albeit flawed -
is a better and more innovative camera) or the Minolta A1 or the
Nikon 8700 or for that matter the S7000 - even with all it's flaws.
It's the camera everybody was tired waiting for and moved on...
The lens won't get a prize anymore, the SR sensor has to prove that
it's better matched in the new package and backed up by better
postprocessing than in the F700. The usability will be there but
who would exchange a 602Z for the new one? Not a lot of people,
those that were upgrading already went for the S7000 or alike or -
as I did - moved on because we outgrew the concept of the
prosumer/bridge camera.
The only people that should be interested in the S20Pro will be
deterred by two things: The camera is a 3Mp SCCD IV camera which is
a hard sell because the concepts behind the sensor are hard to
master. They will be people moving on from plain P&S cameras and
for them the higher resolution of the competition is a lure not to
be disregarded. Only later they'll find out that the 620Z might be
capable of good 4Mp resolution and higher DR (if the processing
doesn't mess things up as it did in the F700) but the money will
have been spent otherwise. The other thing is the rediculous price
expectation of Fuji. The S7000 with it's 6Mp resolution is a hard
sell already in a crowded market. It's selling already cheaper than
the 602Z ever did during it's production run. What do you think
will happen to a camera that has 3Mp which need explaining and
understanding the concepts of rotapolation to get consumers eye?

I am neither belittling nor bashing the camera but the decisions of
Fuji to hold back on the S20Pro. Released instead of the S7000 it
could have been a winner. As things are today it's just another
unremarkable camera at a steep price. Too little too late...
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
Click to expand...
 
fotog said:
I agree with you on most points. One question though. Why is
everyone so sure that the S7000 and the S20 have the same lens
design as the S602? Did Fuji say so? Are we inferring this because
the focal legnth/element-group count hasn't changed?
Click to expand...
I am quite certain that nothing has changed. Even the CA I have seen is the same. Although the 602Z is much less prone to produce it, it is there...
LeifShutter said:
There has been at least one post on this forum, I forget by whom,
comparing his 602 images and his s7000 images, and the conclusion
was that the S7000 has a larger "sweet spot," that is,sharper over
a wider range of apertures.
Click to expand...
That's IMHO simply a function of the smaller photosites of the new sensor and depends on how you define sharpness.

Expect the lens to be generally better on the S20Pro though as on that one the photosites are almost as big as on the 602Z.

--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
photobob said:
I made sure the door was unlocked. Karl has had some worthwhile
things to say, though I disagree with him that the S602Z isn't
worth bothering with if you have a DSLR (I use them both).
Click to expand...
Thank's for the unlocked door, wondered who left it open :-)

As to the value of a small backup camera: If picture quality is paramount then choosing a backup is hard. Mine will be a film SLR because of the pro glass that I got hold of second hand. For other areas even a small P&S film camera might be good but I don't have a $600 need of a small camera so this money get's spent on better tripod and macro rails. In the end only a shot missed is a bad shot...
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
It had been my contention since before the S7000 was out that Fuji could improve the lens while retaining the design. And either those here who reported tests on the 602 lens were wrong or the lens has been improved, as demonstrated by tests on the S7000 by forum members AND resolution chart results reported by Phil.

Bob
fotog said:
There has been at least one post on this forum, I forget by whom,
comparing his 602 images and his s7000 images, and the conclusion
was that the S7000 has a larger "sweet spot," that is,sharper over
a wider range of apertures.
Karl Günter Wünsch said:
ChromeDome said:
how-come they
feel the need to come down here and p* s on our parade?
Click to expand...
It's not that but the audacity of Fuji coming out with a model that
is nothing but a rip off. There is absolutely nothing new in the
S20Pro that they couldn't have done at the beginning of 2003.
They just didn't improve the things that matter besides the sensor.
It's still lacking in some areas, one of which is the lens which is
way overdue for an overhaul. Anyone who doesn't see it this way is
a dreamer... I owned two cameras with the same lens already: the
4900 and the 602Z. The 602Z to some degree was already over the
limit of the lenses capabilites, for example if you used f/9-f/11
that showed clear signs of diffraction. This is probably the reason
this is disabled in software on the newer models.
So tell me what is so brilliant about this $999 camera that it
hold's up to something like the Sony 828 (which - albeit flawed -
is a better and more innovative camera) or the Minolta A1 or the
Nikon 8700 or for that matter the S7000 - even with all it's flaws.
It's the camera everybody was tired waiting for and moved on...
The lens won't get a prize anymore, the SR sensor has to prove that
it's better matched in the new package and backed up by better
postprocessing than in the F700. The usability will be there but
who would exchange a 602Z for the new one? Not a lot of people,
those that were upgrading already went for the S7000 or alike or -
as I did - moved on because we outgrew the concept of the
prosumer/bridge camera.
The only people that should be interested in the S20Pro will be
deterred by two things: The camera is a 3Mp SCCD IV camera which is
a hard sell because the concepts behind the sensor are hard to
master. They will be people moving on from plain P&S cameras and
for them the higher resolution of the competition is a lure not to
be disregarded. Only later they'll find out that the 620Z might be
capable of good 4Mp resolution and higher DR (if the processing
doesn't mess things up as it did in the F700) but the money will
have been spent otherwise. The other thing is the rediculous price
expectation of Fuji. The S7000 with it's 6Mp resolution is a hard
sell already in a crowded market. It's selling already cheaper than
the 602Z ever did during it's production run. What do you think
will happen to a camera that has 3Mp which need explaining and
understanding the concepts of rotapolation to get consumers eye?

I am neither belittling nor bashing the camera but the decisions of
Fuji to hold back on the S20Pro. Released instead of the S7000 it
could have been a winner. As things are today it's just another
unremarkable camera at a steep price. Too little too late...
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Practically as good as I've gotten with my Canon DSLR, and easier, though I admit I had to use an expensive Canon CU lens to help:



http://www.photobobspics.photobobsnature.PhotoShare.co.nz

The 602 has its good uses. - Bob
Karl Günter Wünsch said:
photobob said:
I made sure the door was unlocked. Karl has had some worthwhile
things to say, though I disagree with him that the S602Z isn't
worth bothering with if you have a DSLR (I use them both).
Click to expand...
Thank's for the unlocked door, wondered who left it open :-)
As to the value of a small backup camera: If picture quality is
paramount then choosing a backup is hard. Mine will be a film SLR
because of the pro glass that I got hold of second hand. For other
areas even a small P&S film camera might be good but I don't have a
$600 need of a small camera so this money get's spent on better
tripod and macro rails. In the end only a shot missed is a bad
shot...
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
Click to expand...
 
Karl Günter Wünsch said:
It's not that but the audacity of Fuji coming out with a model that
is nothing but a rip off. There is absolutely nothing new in the
S20Pro that they couldn't have done at the beginning of 2003.
Click to expand...
I agree, but then, we all have the choice, if there were better prosumer
cams out there for the money then we'd buy 'em!
Karl Gnter Wnsch said:
They just didn't improve the things that matter besides the sensor.
It's still lacking in some areas, one of which is the lens which is
way overdue for an overhaul. Anyone who doesn't see it this way is
a dreamer
Click to expand...
So if I disagree with you then I'm a dreamer!! If you look at the other prosumer's out there, the 828 being the only current High res cam with a new lense it's quite apparent that adding gizmo's and a supposedly fabulous piece of glass is not the whole story! CA abound!

I owned two cameras with the same lens already: the
Karl Gnter Wnsch said:
4900 and the 602Z. The 602Z to some degree was already over the
limit of the lenses capabilites, for example if you used f/9-f/11
that showed clear signs of diffraction. This is probably the reason
this is disabled in software on the newer models.
Click to expand...
Me too the 6900 the 602 and now the 7000. Why have they re-introduced F9 to F11 on the S20pro then? I agree that beyond F8 there is little or no optical advantage on this lens, However I have a theory here in that it's got something to do with positioning of the CCD with regards to the lens, I have a suspicion that it's not exactly central on the S7000 (Maybe the F700 too!) I can show pictures from the S7000 which clearly show that the S7000 Vignettes from the Left hand side first. I've first hand experience of this on 3 separate S7000s!
Karl Gnter Wnsch said:
So tell me what is so brilliant about this $999 camera that it
hold's up to something like the Sony 828 (which - albeit flawed -
is a better and more innovative camera) or the Minolta A1 or the
Nikon 8700 or for that matter the S7000 - even with all it's flaws.
It's the camera everybody was tired waiting for and moved on...
The lens won't get a prize anymore, the SR sensor has to prove that
it's better matched in the new package and backed up by better
postprocessing than in the F700.
Click to expand...
I don't feel the need to defend the S20pro at $999 (If indeed that's the price) however, if I felt that the A1 or 828 were better for my purposes than the S7000 then I'd have bought one of them. However, I dont see them in the shops for £480 which is an achievable price for the S7000!!!
Karl Gnter Wnsch said:
The usability will be there but who would exchange a 602Z for the new > one? Not a lot of people, those that were upgrading already went for > the S7000 or alike or - as I did - moved on because we outgrew the > concept of the prosumer/bridge camera.
Click to expand...
This all depends on whether you view the prosumer level as a bridge between affordable DSLR or as an attractive alternative to carrying multiple lenses etc. Personally I picked up the 7000 for £150 plus my 602 to put me on untill DSLR's of the quality of the 10D at around 8MP hit the streets for sub £1000 with the form factor of the ist*D - until then ........
Karl Gnter Wnsch said:
The only people that should be interested in the S20Pro will be
deterred by two things: The camera is a 3Mp SCCD IV camera which is
a hard sell because the concepts behind the sensor are hard to
master. Only later they'll find out that the 620Z might be
capable of good 4Mp resolution and higher DR (if the processing
doesn't mess things up as it did in the F700) but the money will
have been spent otherwise. The other thing is the rediculous price
expectation of Fuji.
Click to expand...
Again, lets wait and see the true street price, and what the reviews say! If Fuji have cocked-up the firmware again as on the F700 then it's there loss. I guess if that's the case we'll be seing a lot of folk going Nikon or Minolta if they wish to remain prosumer. (I just don't rate the 828)

The S7000 with it's 6Mp resolution is a hard
Karl Gnter Wnsch said:
sell already in a crowded market. It's selling already cheaper than
the 602Z ever did during it's production run. What do you think
will happen to a camera that has 3Mp which need explaining and
understanding the concepts of rotapolation to get consumers eye?
Click to expand...
I'm pleased that the S7000 wasn't as well received as the S602 because it allowed me to pick it up cheaply. It's given me a number of advantages over the 602 - EVF is usable now - cable release, and oodles more detail + another years warranty all for £150 (Yes it's a bit noisier in the shadows, but not that bad)

I imagine that the S20Pro's images will be quite smooth - even at 6MP out of the box, and that they will compare favourably to any of the 5MP prosumers out there at the present - but yes you're correct it's probably a hard sell!
Karl Gnter Wnsch said:
I am neither belittling nor bashing the camera but the decisions of
Fuji to hold back on the S20Pro. Released instead of the S7000 it
could have been a winner. As things are today it's just another
unremarkable camera at a steep price. Too little too late...
--
Click to expand...
I certainly didn't get that impression from you post which stated,
Karl Gnter Wnsch said:
Why, it's the same old ba*tard of a lens that has outlasted the
design by sheer luck. It isn't quality, of that I am certain as I
just looked at some pictures I took last year with my 602Z and they
show all kinds or lens problems including decent amounts of CA.
They might not have been objectionable then but since I am now
using a DSLR with pro lenses it shows...
Click to expand...
This sounded like pure snobbery to me from someone who's moved on and enjoys coming back from time to time to say to anyone that'll listen - "Get a life and look at me I bought a DSLR and my camera's better than yours!"

I'm sure that's not the case, but that's how it sounded!!

Regards,

Greg

--
Every silver lining has a cloud ;-(
 
To expensive?? For you maybe, street price will be about $750 ans as for Too Slow lens? The same 6x zoom used on the 602, sure sony and others have a little faster but Look at Nikons 5700, 5400 and 8700??? f2.8-f4.2 !!! Tqalk about a Slllloooowwwwwww lens. I'd wait ans see before throwing stones.

If you think fuji is screwing up, just look around. Read owner reviews here on DP for Sony and Nikon, Olymous, Minolta and canon

I'll keep my S2 for a while and wouldn't mind another S602 for a backup camera. That made images almost as good as my S2 (without any other lens options.)
Azrifel said:
theponja said:
MSRP: $999
Maximum Aperture: F2.8 - F3.1
Auto Focus Illuminator? No
ISO Equivalent: 200/400/800/1600
Click to expand...
Too expensive, too slow lens, still no AF illuminator and a limited
ISO range.

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.org
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/
Click to expand...
--
Michael,
SHooT FIRST, Ask questions later.
Azrifel said:
Azrifel said:
Azrifel said:
Azrifel said:
Azrifel said:
Azrifel said:
Azrifel said:
Azrifel said:
†
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Fuji S2Pro w/Sigma [email protected], Sigma [email protected]/APO, Sigma [email protected], Sigma [email protected], Sigma [email protected]/f4-ASP, Fuji 4900, Olympus E-10 & D-600L.
 
Waaa- Waaaa waaaa.

My 602 focused in very low light while Oly and Nikon owners were crying like you whiners. My S2 focuses in lower light than that. My Olympus E-10 does almost as good. (Fast too). If you need AF Assist, buy yerself a sony P&S, and go shoot flowers with the ladies...

"If you can't run with the BIG DOGS, Stay on your porch"

--
Michael,
SHooT FIRST, Ask questions later.
Member said:
Member said:
Member said:
Member said:
Member said:
Member said:
Member said:
Member said:
†
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Fuji S2Pro w/Sigma [email protected], Sigma [email protected]/APO, Sigma [email protected], Sigma [email protected], Sigma [email protected]/f4-ASP, Fuji 4900, Olympus E-10 & D-600L.
 
Thomas Comerford said:
Thomas Comerford said:
If you want to believe it's 6 megapixels, that's your right, but
you're wrong!
Click to expand...
I never said it was a 6 megapixel camera. I only said that it
outputs 6 million pixels. Having said that I don't consider the
S602 to be a 3mp camera in the normal sense of the term. But it
certainly isn't a 6mp camera!

DeadKenny was under the impression that the S20 works at the same
resolution as the S7000. I was just pointing out the differences
between the two.
Click to expand...
Quibbling over whether it's two sets of 3mp sensors or one 6mp sensor and whether that means the former is 3 or 6mp, doesn't really matter.

A the end of the day both cameras produce an effective 6mp image. The S7000 in addition has fujiterpolation to produce 12mp from a single 6mp SuperCCD, whereas the S20 Pro is producing a 6mp from two 3mp sensors.

Given two 3mp sensors = 6 million physical pixels, whereas the 6mp and the S7000 has 6 million physical pixels (thereabouts), the two can be considered to be 6mp cameras... effectively (which is how Fuji bill it).

In my book, they're both 6mp cameras, whereas the S7000 is not a 12mp camera because it doesn't have 12 million effective pixels (unlike the S3 Pro which does using two 6mp sensors).

--
My Gallery: http://www.sirjohn.co.uk/gallery
 
Alex Vaillancourts said:
In summary,
their cynism related that Phil is not able to read correctly the
spec of Fuji S20 and he is wrong when he talk about the 6.1MP, just
read there:

http://www.photim.com/infos/UneInfo.asp?N=984
Click to expand...
From what little french stuck with me after 9 years of having lessons of it in school they fell for Fuji margeting the SCCD SR as a 6Mp sensor... It isn't and it is good to know that people like Phil (called most influential on the internet by the Sony marketing people) look past the marketing!

I like the SCCD concept but the cameras around it have started showing their age. You can only improve on an existing design so much, after some time it gets repetitive and tired - that's the time to go back to the drawing board to come up with a new, better design.

--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
Wake up Austin.

If you haven't realised that the 602 focussed very badly....no, did not focus at all in dim light (let alone in darker light).....you must be sleeping.

An effective AF assist lamp is a must on these cameras. Users have been complaining too long about that.

Also: the fact that digicams from the other camps don't focus any better, or focus worse, is no excuse. The low light AF of the 602 sucks. If this new cam is any similar..... it will be a real let down.

--
JF
 
Austin316 said:
To expensive?? For you maybe,
Click to expand...
Not when it comes to spending it. Its the $$$ for the package that bothers me.
Austin_316 said:
street price will be about $750 ans
as for Too Slow lens? The same 6x zoom used on the 602, sure sony
and others have a little faster but Look at Nikons 5700, 5400 and
8700??? f2.8-f4.2 !!! Tqalk about a Slllloooowwwwwww lens. I'd wait
ans see before throwing stones.
Click to expand...
Well, I don't have a Nikon 5700, 5400 or 8700. I've got a S602Z.

And the thing is, I don't like the lens. It is not good enough in too much places, a hell of a thing to focus with in low light, is not capable of blurring the background enough and has horrible bokeh.

I hate using the internal / external flash. I want F2, I want F1.8 and I'd be willing to give up half the zoom range for that. I want more sharpeness at wider and the smallest apertures.
Austin_316 said:
If you think fuji is screwing up, just look around. Read owner
reviews here on DP for Sony and Nikon, Olymous, Minolta and canon
I'll keep my S2
Click to expand...
I don't care what the others do.
Austin_316 said:
for a while and wouldn't mind another S602 for a
backup camera. That made images almost as good as my S2 (without
any other lens options.)
Click to expand...
I don't have the same experience. IMHO there is a huge difference between any dSLR and the S602Z output.

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.org
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/
 
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