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Point $ Shoot Pirates

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Anthony Kohn said:
Its not about weddings, but let me relate a story...
Click to expand...
In my case I AM the pro at the track and DO have a right to be there. I have access to the best (and most dangerous) vantage points and I own the checkered flags, banners, track "Feature Winner" sign and often even the bikinky girl's G-string - everything necessary to get a great publicity shot for the track and the racers.

When Uncle Harry comes along with his 35-80 or 28-200, I show him a good, safe, spot to shot from and give him the best shutter speeds and some tips on where to watch for the action. Other pros that I know are welcome and act professionally. When the wannabes start getting in my way or get obnoxious, I have them escorted from the track or beat them with my monopod.

Of course, just as if I were shooting a wedding, I only attend races and other sports events if someone is paying me to be there, and if I'm being paid I feel obligated to give them the best I possibly can.

I also offer reprints and enlargements for sale. The income from that is important. When anyone interferes with my income, I tend not to take it well. See my message to another pro photographer here on the message board http://www.microracing.com/

Uncle Harry with his N5700 and Aunt Edna with her point and shoot are no bother at all UNTIL they interfere with the work I'm being paid to do. 90 percent of the time, I'm glad to help them and give them advice, but I will not ever shoot photos of them with their favorite driver with their camera. Some have actually had the testicular fortitude to ask that!

It's like the sign in my mechanic's garage that says:
Labor - $65/hour
If you watch - $80/hour
If you help - $100/hour

This has been a most interesting thread.

Walt

--
Have Camera Will Travel
Kodak Brownie, Speed Graphic, +

'...let us run with patience and perseverance the race that is set before us.' -- Hebrews 12:1
 
Walt Cox said:
Anthony Kohn said:
Its not about weddings, but let me relate a story...
Click to expand...
In my case I AM the pro at the track and DO have a right to be
there. I have access to the best (and most dangerous) vantage
points and I own the checkered flags, banners, track "Feature
Winner" sign and often even the bikinky girl's G-string -
everything necessary to get a great publicity shot for the track
and the racers.
When Uncle Harry comes along with his 35-80 or 28-200, I show him a
good, safe, spot to shot from and give him the best shutter speeds
and some tips on where to watch for the action. Other pros that I
know are welcome and act professionally. When the wannabes start
getting in my way or get obnoxious, I have them escorted from the
track or beat them with my monopod.
Of course, just as if I were shooting a wedding, I only attend
races and other sports events if someone is paying me to be there,
and if I'm being paid I feel obligated to give them the best I
possibly can.
I also offer reprints and enlargements for sale. The income from
that is important. When anyone interferes with my income, I tend
not to take it well. See my message to another pro photographer
here on the message board http://www.microracing.com/

Uncle Harry with his N5700 and Aunt Edna with her point and shoot
are no bother at all UNTIL they interfere with the work I'm being
paid to do. 90 percent of the time, I'm glad to help them and give
them advice, but I will not ever shoot photos of them with their
favorite driver with their camera. Some have actually had the
testicular fortitude to ask that!

It's like the sign in my mechanic's garage that says:
Labor - $65/hour
If you watch - $80/hour
If you help - $100/hour

This has been a most interesting thread.

Walt

--
Have Camera Will Travel
Kodak Brownie, Speed Graphic, +
'...let us run with patience and perseverance the race that is set
before us.' -- Hebrews 12:1
Click to expand...
 
BCC said:
Has any one come up with a good way to discourage those folks that
pull our their own cameras at your professional shoot? I
experience this at weddings, team photos, and other events, a
non-confrontational solution would be welcomed
BCC
Click to expand...
--

(PLEASE DO NOT list equipment in your signature as this adversely affects searching.)
 
MarkLe said:
well said,
I'd like to discuss indeed about the worst case scenario, when you
get to the point to be forced to give up.
it is safe to just stop while there is a contract signed?

in studio, three of four days ago a model showed up with her sister
and two kids playing around and I had to re-schedule because it was
almost impossible to concentrate on the photoshooting. She agreed,
but I wasted my time that day. (and they broke one of my strobes
that fell down heavily).
Click to expand...
Was she paying you or were you paying her? Why were they in the camera room?
MarkLe said:
but on location, when it is impossible to continue, what's the best
thing to do?
Click to expand...
I don't know. In 25 years, I never walked off a job. I think the photographer has to control the situation. A lot of it, as everything else in life seems to be, is communication. There needs to be a clear understanding between the client and photographer regarding what each expects. When a problem arises, you need to state it clearly. You need to state clearly the consequences of the problem. It's also about politics and psychology. You need to be perceived as willing to hold up your end of the bargain and make it clear that it is the situation that's causing the problem. People are aware of what's going on. If you behave in a professional manner folks will appreciate it and respond appropriately. I never had a problem that didn't get resolved.

One last thing. You have to look at the situation long term. In wedding photography, the initial consultation was as much me checking them out as it was them checking me out. I always allowed myself an escape hatch. I didn't turn down many, but I did turn down some wedding jobs because I knew they'd be more trouble than they were worth. I was primarily a commercial photographer, so weddings were "overtime" for me anyway. I was fortunate I could afford to turn down the business. It's not that I would have made any money on these trouble jobs anyway. That's a lesson most have to learn the hard way. Every once in a while a colleague would say to me "You know that wedding for Miss Jones you turned down? Well, I took it and what a disaster! You're lucky you weren't available."

Doug
 
Hi Doug,

I'm curious how you come to the conclusion that the wedding won't make you any money or will be more trouble than it's worth. Are we talking mostly about the personality of the B&G, or is it a combination of venues, family, expectations, number of guests, etc.?

Thanks for your input,

Michael
Doug MacMillan said:
One last thing. You have to look at the situation long term. In
wedding photography, the initial consultation was as much me
checking them out as it was them checking me out. I always allowed
myself an escape hatch. I didn't turn down many, but I did turn
down some wedding jobs because I knew they'd be more trouble than
they were worth. I was primarily a commercial photographer, so
weddings were "overtime" for me anyway. I was fortunate I could
afford to turn down the business. It's not that I would have made
any money on these trouble jobs anyway. That's a lesson most have
to learn the hard way. Every once in a while a colleague would say
to me "You know that wedding for Miss Jones you turned down? Well,
I took it and what a disaster! You're lucky you weren't available."

Doug
Click to expand...
--
Equipment list in my profile
http://www.morpheusmultimedia.com/gallery
 
Yes it my original post was more in jest that in actual practice. IN actuallity I always ask the family members to wait until I take my 3 exposures per pose then let them fire away.

but I have been very tempted to do this on several occasions. but the customer is always right......even if she does want uncle harry standing beside me

--
Clint Smith
Tinker Photography
If God is love, and love is blind . . . Ray Charles must be God!
 
Doug MacMillan said:
Was she paying you or were you paying her? Why were they in the
camera room?
Click to expand...
she was paying me (portfolios is my main job).

her sister supposed to do her make-up (since she wanted to save some money not hiring the make-up artist I usually hire for them. They can choose their own artist. The kids were unexpected for the two of us.
happens...

impossible situations where it's not possible to continue?

so, it never happened to you and I'm glad. But "what if (happens)" was my question.
 
Seriously,

It was mostly intuition and "chemistry". Here's some of the flags I looked out for:

If they asked to see my price list before they asked to see my photos.

I carefully observed the relationship between the bride and her mother. If there was a turf battle going on, then I knew sooner or later I'd be caught in between. If the groom was there, I'd watch how he interacted with the bride and her mother.

I asked the bride to describe her wedding. I also asked her how she felt I could make the day special for her and her groom. I learned a lot about their expectations of the day and my work.

I didn't offer a package, everything was ala carte. I could give them a pretty accurate idea of how much it would be based on the number of bridesmaids. I was astounded at how good a barometer this was. After presenting my estimate for the job, I'd asked them if it was close to what they budgeted for photos. If their budget was unrealistic, then I was concerned. The amount of money spent on the photos had no relation to satisfaction. You'd think the more folks spent, the pickier they'd be. Satisfaction was related to comfort level. If they think they were having to spend more than they wanted, they sometimes got hypercritical. They'll nitpick you to death.

Sometimes they had read all the bride's magazines and came in with questions from "how to shop for a photographer" articles. Sometimes we could talk it out. It seems to be much worse nowadays because of the knot.

If they wanted to bargain on my fee, I'd direct them to a more "affordable" photographer.

I carefully explained my policy, especially rules about folks shooting during the formals. I'd gauge their willingness to cooperate. If the said "boy, Uncle Harry will sure be disappointed. He's such a good photographer" I knew I was in for trouble.

Sometimes the bride was a spoiled brat. No thanks.

Sometimes the dad was an "up and comer", a businessman who thought their success was a measure of their worth as a human being. They talk big and spend cheap. They can KMA.

All this was hugely unscientific. To keep it all in perspective, I only declined a handful of weddings. I'm sure one or two in that group would have worked out fine, so it's my loss. Also, I've been in another career for 15 years. I don't think things have changed that much, though.

I think a relationship of trust is essential. I think I had that relationship with 98% of my wedding customers. I made some good friends and had a wonderful time at their weddings.

Doug
Mickey said:
Hi Doug,

I'm curious how you come to the conclusion that the wedding won't
make you any money or will be more trouble than it's worth. Are we
talking mostly about the personality of the B&G, or is it a
combination of venues, family, expectations, number of guests, etc.?

Thanks for your input,

Michael
Click to expand...
 
W Fenn said:
We always welcome guests and others to photograph alongside us at
weddings and other events. Yes they get in the way but they are
potential future customers and we make a point of getting along
with everyone when we are working. You would be surprisesd at the
number of times our good attitude is specifically mentioned when
someone is referred to us by a previous customer or sees us working
at a job then hires us for their job. YOU need to learn to cope. It
is not to your advantage to be adversarial to those around you when
working. I frequently feel that the guests photos make us shine
when the bride sees our photos after seeing some from the guests.
This justifies their decision to spend the money on a professional.

Regards,
W Fenn
http://www.fennfoto.com
Click to expand...
 
LorenDJones said:
Good answer...I do the same. I figure if I can't produce a better
image than their point and shoot, I probably shouldn't be
collecting what I am from the ones who hired me. I know others
disagree, but I've never seen an negative result from this positive
approach in thirty years of shooting. Remember the Golden Rule!

-Loren
Click to expand...
As far as the Golden Rule is concerned, it's generally a good practice -- unless there's is a masochist in the crowd...

I use radio slaves to fire two lights on stands, one on each side of the group. One light is set an f/stop below the other (main light). I'm confident the P&S crowd will not get the results I get, so I'm not concerned about their shots replacing mine when the bride places her order. In fact, I want her to see the P&S shots and compare them with mine so she'll understand why she's paying me to do something the guests are doing for free.

Kind regards,
Calvin Wilson
 
Thanks Doug. It really goes to show how important these initial meetings are and what can be learned from them. I'm curious what you would say to the people you didn't want to shoot for. How does one tell a bride that you don't want to shoot her wedding because she's a spoiled brat? ;) Obviously some linguistic creativity is necessary here...

Michael
Doug MacMillan said:
Seriously,

It was mostly intuition and "chemistry". Here's some of the flags
I looked out for:

If they asked to see my price list before they asked to see my photos.

I carefully observed the relationship between the bride and her
mother. If there was a turf battle going on, then I knew sooner or
later I'd be caught in between. If the groom was there, I'd watch
how he interacted with the bride and her mother.

I asked the bride to describe her wedding. I also asked her how
she felt I could make the day special for her and her groom. I
learned a lot about their expectations of the day and my work.

I didn't offer a package, everything was ala carte. I could give
them a pretty accurate idea of how much it would be based on the
number of bridesmaids. I was astounded at how good a barometer
this was. After presenting my estimate for the job, I'd asked
them if it was close to what they budgeted for photos. If their
budget was unrealistic, then I was concerned. The amount of money
spent on the photos had no relation to satisfaction. You'd think
the more folks spent, the pickier they'd be. Satisfaction was
related to comfort level. If they think they were having to spend
more than they wanted, they sometimes got hypercritical. They'll
nitpick you to death.

Sometimes they had read all the bride's magazines and came in with
questions from "how to shop for a photographer" articles.
Sometimes we could talk it out. It seems to be much worse nowadays
because of the knot.

If they wanted to bargain on my fee, I'd direct them to a more
"affordable" photographer.

I carefully explained my policy, especially rules about folks
shooting during the formals. I'd gauge their willingness to
cooperate. If the said "boy, Uncle Harry will sure be
disappointed. He's such a good photographer" I knew I was in for
trouble.

Sometimes the bride was a spoiled brat. No thanks.
Sometimes the dad was an "up and comer", a businessman who thought
their success was a measure of their worth as a human being. They
talk big and spend cheap. They can KMA.

All this was hugely unscientific. To keep it all in perspective, I
only declined a handful of weddings. I'm sure one or two in that
group would have worked out fine, so it's my loss. Also, I've
been in another career for 15 years. I don't think things have
changed that much, though.

I think a relationship of trust is essential. I think I had that
relationship with 98% of my wedding customers. I made some good
friends and had a wonderful time at their weddings.

Doug
Click to expand...
--
Equipment list in my profile
http://www.morpheusmultimedia.com/gallery
 
sean said:
BCC said:
Has any one come up with a good way to discourage those folks that
pull our their own cameras at your professional shoot? I
experience this at weddings, team photos, and other events, a
non-confrontational solution would be welcomed
BCC
Click to expand...
--
(PLEASE DO NOT list equipment in your signature as this adversely
affects searching.)
Click to expand...
 
Mickey said:
Thanks Doug. It really goes to show how important these initial
meetings are and what can be learned from them. I'm curious what
you would say to the people you didn't want to shoot for. How does
one tell a bride that you don't want to shoot her wedding because
she's a spoiled brat? ;) Obviously some linguistic creativity is
necessary here...

Michael
Click to expand...
Michael,

This is very tricky, as you have pointed out. The last thing you want is a bratty bride bad mouthing you.

I used my calendar. When the bride called to set up the initial consultation, we'd check to make sure the day was open to prevent wasting her time. When the bride arrived for an appointment, I'd feel out the situation for a few minutes. If it seemed I had someone I wanted to work with, I'd act absent minded and ask her for her wedding date again. I'd then say "Excuse me, let me look at the calendar again. We've had a lot of bookings the last few days and I want to make sure that date is still available." Folks like to be assured about their decisions. If they feel others have made the same decision, they feel more comfortable. This also gently prods them towards closing, putting down a retainer to reserve the date.

If I was getting hinkey vibes, I'd skip the reference to the calendar. If I decided at some point I didn't want to work with them, I'd mention the calendar. I'd go to the counter, look up the date and say: "I, I'm awfully sorry. We had another bride interested in that date and I see she stopped by earlier today and confirmed it with our receptionist. I'll be glad to put you on the waiting list in case she cancels."

Another tactic I'd use would be to discourage closing, pointing out this is a big decision and suggesting they shop around before committing. That way, when they called back, I could claim we were already booked.

Those techniques don't say "You're bad", they say "I'm in demand". I rarely had to resort to subterfuge. I was as good at unselling myself as I was at selling myself. That's harder to explain, but mostly it consists of subtlely saying "no". Some of my competitors did a great job of unselling themselves. They'd state in one way or another:

"I'm only going to make x numbers of exposures. If you want any more, you'll have to pay big time." - I learned two things early on; I can't sell a photograph I didn't take and in the scheme of things, film is cheap. I told my brides I had no set limit in the number of photos I take and I always brought twice as much film as I thought I needed.

"For that package, you only get x amount of my time (usually 4 hours). If I stay any longer, you'll have to pay big time." - I only booked one wedding a day per photographer. There were two of us. A wedding takes too much time and takes too long to try to do more than one a day. Also, I tried to get out of the cost per hour mindset with weddings. I told my brides I'd be there for the duration. I worked in the South (USA), so I knew that 90% of the weddings were going to be only 4 hours or so. At the time, we didn't have weddings with morning breakfasts and evening sit down dinners with DJ's. If I worked up North, I'd probably have to use a different model.

Every time a photographer trots out a list of requirements and rules ("I'll do this but I won't do that), you're saying "NO!". I see a lot of photographers trying to cover every little conceivable point, often bringing up issues that may happen 2% of the time or even issues the bride never thought of. Now she's worried about it. Things may be different in these litigonous times and you may have to CYA, but I really don't think so. Sometimes I think we get caught up in the rare anecdotal situaion and take it as being the norm.

Sorry I got long winded.

Doug
 
COWARD!

Your very First post...... whoever you are...... chose the name "anyphotopro"....... then bumped the message you liked..... meaning you want a free lunch, but are ashamed to say who you are; 'cos you know it's unjust.

COWARD!
anyphotopro said:
sean said:
BCC said:
Has any one come up with a good way to discourage those folks that
pull our their own cameras at your professional shoot? I
experience this at weddings, team photos, and other events, a
non-confrontational solution would be welcomed
BCC
Click to expand...
--
(PLEASE DO NOT list equipment in your signature as this adversely
affects searching.)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
JF
 
BCC said:
Has any one come up with a good way to discourage those folks that
pull our their own cameras at your professional shoot? I
experience this at weddings, team photos, and other events, a
non-confrontational solution would be welcomed
BCC
Click to expand...
you my friend are a conceited ass, how dare you call guests at a wedding pirates , I would never engage you to do any work for me, and it would appear that you would like no guest (pirates) at any wedding. How conceited you are and I wager that most of your fellow photographers are chuckling at this post
FKG
 
FKG said:
BCC said:
Has any one come up with a good way to discourage those folks that
pull our their own cameras at your professional shoot? I
experience this at weddings, team photos, and other events, a
non-confrontational solution would be welcomed
BCC
Click to expand...
you my friend are a conceited ass, how dare you call guests at a
wedding pirates , I would never engage you to do any work for me,
and it would appear that you would like no guest (pirates) at any
wedding. How conceited you are and I wager that most of your fellow
photographers are chuckling at this post
Click to expand...
What cheek. The guy is asking for a non-confrontational solution, & you're calling HIM "a conceited ass"?

You are no pro, FKG.

YOU are indignated 'cos a pro is very, very justly considering you a nuisance.

What you don't realise is that you're a nuisance to the B&G (more than to the pro).

How dare you turn their kind invitation to their wedding into an egoistic trip to add images to your Hard drive?

It's the B&G's occasion to celebrate, it's THEIR event. Let them enjoy it.

You are just a guest, you self conceited ass. The B&G never asked anyone to bring alone the camera (or even camcorder). They don't want YOU to ruin their wedding.

Go back to shooting your peers (insects & such other stuff).

This is a pro forum. Respect that.

--
JF
 
Joe,
this is another example of how things are in real life:
this is the Pro Digital Forum (which means what it says)
a colleague posts a thread asking opinions from other colelagues

we get a bouch of non pros aswering and giving out unrequested advices (the polite ones),
the arrogant ones go even further BS&&&&ing the professional original poster.

go figure the crowd we have to deal with at work
 
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