No need for a larger lens. Just don't make it a superzoom.
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Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.org
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/
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new FinePix S20 Pro !!!
- Thread starter theponja
- Start date
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Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.org
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/
Thomas Comerford
Veteran Member
The S7000 has 6 million sensors, which output 12 million pixels.
The S20 has 3 million S sensors and 3 million R sensors, which output 6 million pixels. I think if you shoot in RAW you get an S channel with 6 million pixels in it and an R channel with 6 million pixels.
The end result is essentially the same as the S602, but with more dynamic range.
rono
Well-known member
From Phil's preview:
"Phil: In a risky move Fujifilm has chosen this time to define this SR sensor as having 6.2 million effective pixels (3.1 million S-pixels, 3.1 million R-pixels). However, to me at least, this is both incorrect and misleading. The sensor only has 3.1 million individual pixel locations (microlenses) at the surface, unike Foveon's X3 sensor the extra photo detector below each microlens on the Fujifilm SuperCCD SR sensor does not provide any additional resolution. Additionally I think that the use of the word 'pixel' when defining the two photo detectors is also misleading"
If you want to believe it's 6 megapixels, that's your right, but you're wrong!
"Phil: In a risky move Fujifilm has chosen this time to define this SR sensor as having 6.2 million effective pixels (3.1 million S-pixels, 3.1 million R-pixels). However, to me at least, this is both incorrect and misleading. The sensor only has 3.1 million individual pixel locations (microlenses) at the surface, unike Foveon's X3 sensor the extra photo detector below each microlens on the Fujifilm SuperCCD SR sensor does not provide any additional resolution. Additionally I think that the use of the word 'pixel' when defining the two photo detectors is also misleading"
If you want to believe it's 6 megapixels, that's your right, but you're wrong!
batty66824
Veteran Member
Thomas Comerford
Veteran Member
I might buy it!
I've been trying to talk myself into buying an S7000 for months, but never could quite manage it. After seeing the S20 I think this could be the one for me, although only at the right price!
I'd love to have the improved viewfinder, the ability to shoot in RAW, and continous focussing on my S602 and I see the S20 as a way of getting that with (hopefully) some extra dynamic range thrown in aswell!
The extra resolution of the S7000 doesn't mean all that much to me... I see it more as a way of getting better quality crops than better quality prints, with the exception of very large prints which I never really do anyway. The lack of compression levels is probably the biggest issue I have with the S7000, along with silly things like not being able to mark images for deletion in the continouous mode preview. Considering the fact that the S20 has a final 10 mode I sincerely hope they haven't made the same mistake again!
I've been looking at DSLRs like the Canon 10D and more recently the Nikon D70, but I'm very reluctant to get into carrying a bag of lenses around with me all the time. I find it tricky enough getting my TCON-17 on and off as it is without getting my paw-prints on everything!
I'll be eagerly awaiting the reviews and sample images from the S20. Here's hoping it lives up to it's potential!
batty66824
Veteran Member
I'm glad that someone else has picked upon the sense behind it.
All we need now, is for some brave soul to show us real-life examples.
Let's have a whip-round, to give Morris and Cassandra a couple to play with.
Or, shouldn't Fuji do that?
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batty.
Thomas Comerford
Veteran Member
I never said it was a 6 megapixel camera. I only said that it outputs 6 million pixels. Having said that I don't consider the S602 to be a 3mp camera in the normal sense of the term. But it certainly isn't a 6mp camera!
DeadKenny was under the impression that the S20 works at the same resolution as the S7000. I was just pointing out the differences between the two.
Also, I agree with Phil's sentiments entirely. Fuji are wrong to say that the SR sensor has 6 million effective pixels, but in today's megapixel-driven marketplace I can't say I blame them for trying!
The TCON-17 made me realise how much converters s uck.
They are a pain to screw on (UV filter off, converter on) and off, and you loose the ability to zoom out, unless you screw it off again.
That has caused me to loose a lot of shooting opportunities. Subjects either to distant for the normal zoom or to close for the converter.
A real zoom lens like a 70-200 or 100-300 on a dSLR gives you a lot of room to zoom out. Chaning a lens is easy. Take the back cap of, stick it in the body, twist it and it clicks into place. Can be done in 10 to 30 seconds.
I'd rather upgrade my S602 with the S20 then a S7000. If only the price is right. I am also interested in the new software and a possible F700 bargain when the prices come down.
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Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.org
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/
Thomas Comerford
Veteran Member
Agreed, although I just screw mine directly onto the UV filter?
To be honest, in the situation where the subject is too distant, I would just shoot with the normal zoom and be content with what I got. Cropping the image down isn't ideal but it's better than nothing!
It is easy, but you then need to put the caps onto the lens you just took off and find somewhere to store it!
Lo Yuk Fai
Leading Member
Since each S and R sensor is combined with each other to produce one pixel on the final output, IMO it's really kind of misleading (or, marketing...) to say it's a 6m sensor.
BTW, traditional each "pixel" consists of a photodiode, in the case of SCCD SR can you call it "R-photodiode" and "S-photodiode" instead?
BTW, traditional each "pixel" consists of a photodiode, in the case of SCCD SR can you call it "R-photodiode" and "S-photodiode" instead?
Ian Brook
Forum Enthusiast
If it doesn't damage the filter I will screw it directly onto the filter from now on. I just wasn't sure if it would perhaps touch the filterglass and damage it. Your experience is no damage?
True, it depends on the subject of course. My experience was especially with motorcycle racing venues and at the zoo.
With the motorcycle racing stuff I wanted portraits (but had not always room to step back enough) AND nearby action AND distant action. I really felt screwed after that (on/off/on/off/on/off).
At the zoo I used the morning to shoot with the converter and after lunch did the same round without.
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Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.org
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/
Lo Yuk Fai
Leading Member
Besides the major stuff, two little things IMO distinguish S20 from S7K in some interesting ways.
- Firewire
- ISO 800 in FULL (no RAW, though)
IMO the only cool thing about it is the lens...
A.
'1+1=2...but you & me I have no idea what it is'
N. Stanescu
A.
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'1+1=2...but you & me I have no idea what it is'
N. Stanescu
Karl Gnter Wnsch
Veteran Member
Why, it's the same old ba*tard of a lens that has outlasted the design by sheer luck. It isn't quality, of that I am certain as I just looked at some pictures I took last year with my 602Z and they show all kinds or lens problems including decent amounts of CA. They might not have been objectionable then but since I am now using a DSLR with pro lenses it shows...
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regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
Ok then...it's nothing cool about S20
A.
'1+1=2...but you & me I have no idea what it is'
N. Stanescu
A.
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'1+1=2...but you & me I have no idea what it is'
N. Stanescu
Thomas Comerford
Veteran Member
Nope, none that I can see...
Good idea!!At the zoo I used the morning to shoot with the converter and after
lunch did the same round without.
ChromeDome
Veteran Member
Fantastic Karl,
I'm glad you have found the benefit of £1200+ for the cam and however many £100's or even £1000's for the lenses to match. However I'm here with my cheap cam with a nodad lense because I don't want the disadvantages that coincide with the format you purvey! Ie: instant poverty and a chronic back complaints :-(
I'm ever so surprised that you find and improvement in instant image quality between a £500 compact and £1500-£2000 kit solution! If I'd known that this solution was available to me then surely I too would have gone that route (I must be stupid for not having thought it) but hey I'm in a different market and obviously a different skill level! So I'll buy the best of what's available to suit me now!!! I'll leave real skilled photographers to do there stuff, up there in the god like realms of DSLRville and hope they do the same for me! I mean they must be the best photographers coz they spent oodles of cash to prove it!! Each and every day I look in on the Canon DSLR forums and I see pictures taken by folk that can only be described as photographic gods (NOT); how-come they feel the need to come down here and p* s on our parade?
Don't answer, I know I'm right it's the camera that makes the photo not the photographer!! You guys taught us that, if nothing else!!
Best regards to you and your friends,
Greg
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Every silver lining has a cloud ;-(
LeifShutter
Veteran Member
Karl, who let you back in?
Karl Gnter Wnsch
Veteran Member
It's not that but the audacity of Fuji coming out with a model that is nothing but a rip off. There is absolutely nothing new in the S20Pro that they couldn't have done at the beginning of 2003.
They just didn't improve the things that matter besides the sensor. It's still lacking in some areas, one of which is the lens which is way overdue for an overhaul. Anyone who doesn't see it this way is a dreamer... I owned two cameras with the same lens already: the 4900 and the 602Z. The 602Z to some degree was already over the limit of the lenses capabilites, for example if you used f/9-f/11 that showed clear signs of diffraction. This is probably the reason this is disabled in software on the newer models.
So tell me what is so brilliant about this $999 camera that it hold's up to something like the Sony 828 (which - albeit flawed - is a better and more innovative camera) or the Minolta A1 or the Nikon 8700 or for that matter the S7000 - even with all it's flaws. It's the camera everybody was tired waiting for and moved on...
The lens won't get a prize anymore, the SR sensor has to prove that it's better matched in the new package and backed up by better postprocessing than in the F700. The usability will be there but who would exchange a 602Z for the new one? Not a lot of people, those that were upgrading already went for the S7000 or alike or - as I did - moved on because we outgrew the concept of the prosumer/bridge camera.
The only people that should be interested in the S20Pro will be deterred by two things: The camera is a 3Mp SCCD IV camera which is a hard sell because the concepts behind the sensor are hard to master. They will be people moving on from plain P&S cameras and for them the higher resolution of the competition is a lure not to be disregarded. Only later they'll find out that the 620Z might be capable of good 4Mp resolution and higher DR (if the processing doesn't mess things up as it did in the F700) but the money will have been spent otherwise. The other thing is the rediculous price expectation of Fuji. The S7000 with it's 6Mp resolution is a hard sell already in a crowded market. It's selling already cheaper than the 602Z ever did during it's production run. What do you think will happen to a camera that has 3Mp which need explaining and understanding the concepts of rotapolation to get consumers eye?
I am neither belittling nor bashing the camera but the decisions of Fuji to hold back on the S20Pro. Released instead of the S7000 it could have been a winner. As things are today it's just another unremarkable camera at a steep price. Too little too late...
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regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
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