I need pictures of the 828 (the CAMERA it is)

Vince Fisher · Jan 27, 2004

Georgi,

What do you expect of a camera with 28-200mm equivalent zoom range
with a manual zoom ring and a 8 megapixel sensor all at a price less
than a $1000 and a weight of about 2 lbs.

There will have to be tradeoffs here - you can't have the best of everything. Your expectations are unrealistic. As far as I'm concerned Sony put out a great product here. Just move on and buy another camera.

Your asking people only for their problem pictures. What about the good ones. Your assessment will definitely be one sided and prejudicial toward
Sony. And what right to you have to imply that Sony is arrogant just
because they don't produce a camera to your satisfaction. A lot of
people have bought the camera and choose to keep it. What does that tell you?

Vince

Georgi said:
I have registered a couple of domain names where I plan on putting
up a form for people to fill out and e mail the comments to Sony
but I will need a few pictures of the cameras WITH the permission
to use them on my sites as I dont' want any copyright problems.

Like I've said before, I really wanted the 828 and it pis*es me off
that they released it with known problems (fairly serious ones too)
so I thought I'd do my share to possibly speed the process of
getting a new unit out.

Needless to say, if NO ONE complains then they won't be in THAT
much of a hurry.

Also, I would like to have the permission to use pictures with PF,
noise and the other problems such as the solarization problem and a
few others that I've seen.

Thanks and if anyone's interested, please e mail me directly.

George

Georgi · Jan 27, 2004

In any case, most of the Japanese economy started by copying European products.

If you look at old cameras and motorcycles, most of them are direct copies of German products so, so much for Japanese pride

George

Georgi · Jan 27, 2004

Harry Behret said:
Georgi said:

Love your cemetary shots.

I think I've downloaded a couple of them but for my viewing
pleasure only. I like to look at good shots from time to time. If
that's a problem I'll be happy to delete them.

Again, very nice stuff

Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words. I'm complemented that you downloaded
them for your own viewing. No problem for me.

Harry

--
http://www.pbase.com/hpb

'We don't make a photograph just with a camera; we bring to the act
of photography all the books we have read, the movies we have seen,
the music we have heard, the people we have loved.' Ansel Adams

Georgi · Jan 27, 2004

How about pictures that would be good had it not been for the PF.

The point is, it doesn't have to be 50% but the problem should be obvious. I've seen a lot of bad pics here and I've also seen some other problems but none of them were taken by me and I DON'T swipe other people's pictures.

I need pictures with PF, with noise problems and pictures of the 828 itself to put on the site.

I only have a couple of shots and the PF there isn't worth the trouble.

It should be obvious problems to show what happens under normal shooting without the photographer TRYING to avoid PF.

In my opinion, you shouldn't HAVE to try to avoid a problem that is inherent in the design/model. That is NOT what you pay for.

So, anyone contributing?

George

kiwi · Jan 27, 2004

Georgi has clocked up over 1000 posts over several years with almost all of them in STF

You Vince have clocked up 71 posts with less than 10 of them outside the various Canon forums

pardon me but who might be the troll in this situation

Mike

BTW I'm glad you think the 828 is a good camera but that doesn't offset the absurdity of calling Georgi a troll

Georgi · Jan 27, 2004

Calling me a troll will only satisfy your most childish little fears but it won't solve the problem.

Sony did a hel* of a job on the camera but they fell for the trap that more is better. It isn't. They should have stuck to a normal sensor and the problem would have been NONE.

Sure, they DID pack a lot of features in the camera but whether you like it or not, the product is FLAWED and so are many other products around.

This is not simply about Sony but it starts here.

I want the camera in working condition and if I can do something, it will help me, you and others. Of course, you'll never admit to it nor will you say thanks but the fact is that people like me are the ones that bug companies that sometimes force changes.

Another is the voice of people and the masses but if the masses buy a flawed product, what message does that send to the makers>

You're not helping but I'm sure you think you are. Again, your opinion is of course yours but consider that your'e trying hard to keep me from complaining about a product that is very obviously flawed which in the future might hurt someone that YOU know.

As for expectations, I didn't write the wishlist.

You guys did. I was still having fun with my 707 when people here were wishing for this and that. I just sat there and happened to see the 828 specs one day and was thrilled so please, do NOT blame me for having expectations.

I had none before Sony dangled it in front of my face and I said, YES PLEASE, can I have one.

Then they slapped me in the face with it and all it left was a purple mark, right in the face.

Apparently it doesn't bother you but it bothers the hit out of me that they can do that.

Again, if they fix or replace it, I will again try to figure out how I can afford one.

Vince Fisher said:
Your asking people only for their problem pictures. What about the
good ones.

The good ones will obviously do very little to raise awareness and to force SOny to do something. Maybe you should read my original post.

Your assessment will definitely be one sided and prejudicial toward Sony.

Well, DUH! That was kind of the whole point. Again, did you pay attention?

And what right to you have to imply that Sony is arrogant just

Vince Fisher said:
because they don't produce a camera to your satisfaction.

Sony is arrogant in their behaviour, in their expectation that YOU will buy the camera and they are insulting YOUR intelligence. NOT mine. As you see, I didn't bite.
By the way, I've got a box of broken glass. Would you like to buy it?
IF you puzzle it all together, you'll get a great statue.
The statue was beautiful BUT, it is broken. That should interest you.
$1000 ok?

YOu can use the box to prop something up with or as a paperweight so it works. Not like intended but it works.

A lot of

Vince Fisher said:
people have bought the camera and choose to keep it. What does that
tell you?

I am trying not to be rude to anyone or to insult anyone so, do you really want me to answer that?

George

Georgi · Jan 27, 2004

Thanks for the heads up. I'm still amazed at how much you guys here know. I dont' even know how to see how many posts I've written, nor how long I've been here or any of that

It is so easy to call someone a troll instead of having an intelligent commen and besides, the fact that the word troll is being used by everyone, only shows how EASY (and fast) it is to get people to follow someone/something. You know, like buying a flawed camera.

Hypothetically speaking and this question is for everyone.

HOW LONG do you guys think it would be before Sony fixed the 828 if NO ONE bought it? Again, hypothetically speaking (and please dont' make me spell that word again).

George

SteveM · Jan 27, 2004

Georgi said:
I have registered a couple of domain names where I plan on putting
up a form for people to fill out and e mail the comments to Sony
but I will need a few pictures of the cameras WITH the permission
to use them on my sites as I dont' want any copyright problems.

Like I've said before, I really wanted the 828 and it pis*es me off
that they released it with known problems (fairly serious ones too)
so I thought I'd do my share to possibly speed the process of
getting a new unit out.

Needless to say, if NO ONE complains then they won't be in THAT
much of a hurry.

Also, I would like to have the permission to use pictures with PF,
noise and the other problems such as the solarization problem and a
few others that I've seen.

Thanks and if anyone's interested, please e mail me directly.

George

Georgi

I think this is a great idea, for all the F828 owners that aren’t happy about the CA problems.

I would have supported you even more a few weeks ago, but I decided that I didn't want to waste any more time contacting Sony about an issue that in my opinion they can't fix.

I am now a very happy owner of the Canon Kiss digital. Now by the end of the year everyone will want to upgrade to the next best release from Sony while me, I'll maybe buy a new body in 12-18 months and keep my investment in lenses.

--
Andrew Mullan

Georgi · Jan 27, 2004

Bitching isn't the only thing I do here.

I'd say that 95% of my posts are to TRY to help or answer questions with what little I know or do remember since my heydays of taking pictures but since I'm sure you doubt that too, here are a couple of links for you.

The reply to this guys question and his reply to me after that.

I DO have more thank you notes by the way but again, you believe what you want to believe

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=3624436

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=3629457

GEorge

Georgi · Jan 27, 2004

Andrew, what the hel* is a kiss?

Anyway, thanks for the support, now all I have to do is get some pictures.

I still think I might do a little bit to get to Sony. After all, I plan on setting up a form that people can simply fill out and e mail to Sony.

Their views and comments, not mine

Goodnight. It's 4 am here and I have to go to bed but I'll be back tomorrow to see if anyone has offered to send me any pics

George

Moti · Jan 27, 2004

Georgi said:
It should be obvious problems to show what happens under normal
shooting without the photographer TRYING to avoid PF.

I'm sorry to dissapoint you George but in my case it's the other way round.

I an TRYING HARD to sqeeze some PF out of my 828 with not too much of a success. So I guess I might be lucky having one that is good. In any case, it's not an obvious problem for me.

Georgi said:
In my opinion, you shouldn't HAVE to try to avoid a problem that is
inherent in the design/model"

This is a very strange statement. Why not? Just to satisfy some trolls? I always try to avoid problems in my photos. Framing problems, exposure problems, focus problems, noise problems etc. I would have done the same with FP if I'd ancouter a problem mainly because I am very satisfied with the rest of the camera's performance.

Georgi said:
That is NOT what you pay for.

Sorry, but now you sound like a Canon sales person. I know exactly what I've paid for and I am very thrilled with it.

Georgi said:
I only have a couple of shots and the PF there isn't worth the
trouble.

I am not surprized. Maybe it's a moment of truth... Maybe it is a problem but not as serious as many try to present it, maybe people just got fedup of unexperienced prophets and learned how to take good photos in the meantime. Or maybe most people who DO OWN the 828 started to appreciate its qualities after all.
My impression is that you are trying to squeeze water out of a dry stone.

If I may give you an advise, I'd tell you this. If you are serious, go get the camera, I am sure there is a possibility to get it on a limited time basis. Try it for yourself. Try to be honest as much as you can with the camera, with photography and with yourself. Publish your findings and then let people to decide weather they join you.

Will you do that? or maybe you are affraid that the results might not represent exactly the general spirit of this treat...

SteveM · Jan 27, 2004

Georgi said:
Andrew, what the hel* is a kiss?

Anyway, thanks for the support, now all I have to do is get some
pictures.

I still think I might do a little bit to get to Sony. After all, I
plan on setting up a form that people can simply fill out and e
mail to Sony.

Their views and comments, not mine

Goodnight. It's 4 am here and I have to go to bed but I'll be back
tomorrow to see if anyone has offered to send me any pics

George

--
Andrew Mullan

Olga Johnson · Jan 27, 2004

Andrew Mullan said:
Georgi said:

Andrew, what the hel* is a kiss?

Anyway, thanks for the support, now all I have to do is get some
pictures.

I still think I might do a little bit to get to Sony. After all, I
plan on setting up a form that people can simply fill out and e
mail to Sony.

Their views and comments, not mine

Goodnight. It's 4 am here and I have to go to bed but I'll be back
tomorrow to see if anyone has offered to send me any pics

George

Click to expand...

--
Andrew Mullan

Olga Johnson · Jan 27, 2004

Georgi,

It's been interesting to me to see those with Sony 707/717 be so disappointed with the 828. What has been even more interesting to me is to see that of legitimate users/owners (not trolls), this is the group that has been so emphatically convinced of the 828's lack of quality. Coming from the outside in and not being a Sony digicam owner before, I found it very peculiar.

It has been mentioned before, by Ulysses and others, that non-Sony owners, particularly dSLR owners who have used the 828, have found it to be a very useful tool. I am one of those dSLR owners who bought the 828.

To me, and I'm sure there are others like me, the 707 and 717 did not offer the type of quality I expected or wanted. While there were certain hardware issues, such as lack of a hot shoe, what was even bigger were the image issues, such as the oversharpened look of 707 images, certain neon color problems that I saw. The 717 improved on that, but I was still not impressed by the quality. Those cameras to me provided images that were inflexible in my hands. I could not see trying to soften oversharpened images or making corrections to colors; not with my workflow. It would have meant post processing just about every single image for color, etc.

Don't forget that here is where we differ. While you and many others love your 707 images, the truth is that some of us did not care for them at all.

So here comes the 828 with color and sharpness changes that can be had in-camera and along with it comes the PF issue that accompanies some of those images. But guess what? Even with the PF issue, the quality of the 828 images has immensely improved in our eyes. Post processing is minimal, especially compared to dSLR post processing. And with this comes a camera with some terrific features, the biggest to me being the minimal shutter lag, being the closest to a dSLR that I've ever experienced, and the great 28-200mm lens.

Have there been disappointments? You betcha! The biggest disappointment to me is the joke that they call Raw. That bothers me more than the PF. Taking 15 seconds to write a Raw file to CF or MSPro is shameful in this day and age for a digital camera that can offer you the video quality that the 828 does. Not to mention the pathetic, IMHO, Raw conversion program they've included with it.

But even with all its bugs and disappointing features, I find the 828 to be an excellent tool for photography and not lacking in its image quality.

Just another user's opinion....

Olga

David Cooper · Jan 27, 2004

Mike Fitzgerald said:
To be fair to Georgi -- who's one of the longest stayers (3.7
years) among us at DPR, I hope a few people note -- it's immaterial
whether he has the camera or not.

Mike Fitzgerald said:

Until the F828 came along.

Click to expand...

Mike

Hello Mike,

Interesting comments but as an owner of both a 707 over 4000 shots(now sold) and currently a 717 over 3500 shots so far, maybe I was lucky but both cameras have not shown any of the problems associated with them, I know they were there and also other cameras had some form of problems but not so much was said about them, I agree with Cheryln that to give a fair comment you DO need to own the camera so as to get first hand any problems that may exsist, I have seen bad images from the 828 but have also seen brilliant shots of which are in the major amount of shots, as I take mainly landscape shots the 828 will fill the bill perfectly, ( I have taken about 100 shots on a 828, not mine to see for myself)

I am not in the position to be able to afford a DSLR and with the added cost and weight it is out of my reach, before finally purchasing the 828 I have used one in my photographic situations. I am saddened that some of the work done with the 828 it has been tested way above what I have seen in other camera tests, is this to simply highlight the problems or to put them way out of proportion, ie the foil test, who takes photo's like that ?.

I don't print higher than A4 and in that situation even when cropped images I have done from the 828 have been brilliant, I agree that there are images that have problems but who hasn't taken shots with film cameras where you can print all, I find I now have a greater amount of printable images than I have ever had before.
I hope Sony does listen and make what I feel a brilliant camera even better.
David Cooper

Mike Fitzgerald said:
Cherilyn wrote:

Cherilyn said:

If you don't have the camera, why are you starting a crusade? Why
not just get something else that pleases you (if anything would)
and move on? If I were a manufacturer, I not only wouldn't listen
to you (as you are not a customer), I'd probably consider legal
action against any such derogatory sites.

Click to expand...

David Cooper · Jan 27, 2004

Olga Johnson said:
It has been mentioned before, by Ulysses and others, that non-Sony
owners, particularly dSLR owners who have used the 828, have found
it to be a very useful tool. I am one of those dSLR owners who
bought the 828.

Olga Johnson said:
But even with all its bugs and disappointing features, I find the
828 to be an excellent tool for photography and not lacking in its
image quality.

Just another user's opinion....

Olga

Hello Olga

Thank you for your comments, though I don't yet own a 828 I have taken a lot of shots and am more than impressed, re your comments on the 707, 717 I personally love the shots and have printed many brilliant images, agreed by a lot of outsiders, I have both, I am not a proffessional and don't need a DSLR, and though I know you need or like Raw or Tiff, maybe I am a cheap skate but the storage needed is a problem to me as well, I personally am more than happy with JPeg and won't use raw when I get my 828, a friend who has a D100 Nikon and a brilliant camera does and I know he maybe not impressed by the slowness either, hope Sony will rectify that, the Images he gets are supurb but that camera is way out of my reach cost wise and the weight is a problem to me, not to him, But the images that he does are stunning but again to my eye almost unnatural due to the sharpness he does, images of a friend he had to redo with a slightly lower sharpness, everybody likes something different, I personally won't be put off buying the 828 as it fills my needs and style of imaging, mind you if they bring out an improved model fixing the problems I will be first on their door to buy one,
David Cooper.

Olga Johnson · Jan 27, 2004

David Cooper said:
impressed by the slowness either, hope Sony will rectify that, the
Images he gets are supurb but that camera is way out of my reach
cost wise and the weight is a problem to me, not to him,

Weight has been the killer for me and has been the #1 reason I bought the Sony.

David Cooper said:
everybody likes something different

Exactly! And that's the message I was trying to convey.

David Cooper said:
mind you if they bring out an
improved model fixing the problems I will be first on their door to
buy one,

Same here.

Olga

Olga Johnson · Jan 27, 2004

George,

Tried to email you but got this message:

"Iam getting a new system configured, I will be back online in a few days. Thanks George"

Olga

hip2 · Jan 27, 2004

yep, i'm 100% sure, it was on the shot where you took handy using your D100 :
http://www.pbase.com/image/24978244/original
here look :

the grey car behind the white truck , look in the window, the reflection of the building on the left carries pf

and above the light post just above the pine street sign above the head of andy

and lastly, on the top sign of the white truck, there is a slight layer of pf

if you zoom in really hard, you can also see a purple/magenta tint on the soles of andy's shoes, but you really have to look hard for it

they all only really appear at 100% viewing, but still it is there.

but to me those are not intrusive enough to worry me anyway.

Harry Behret said:
Are you sure. I didn't post more than 2-3 828 shots from the day. I
had blown them up to 400% in PS w/o finding any CA. I could be
wrong here (that has happened a few times).

Harry

--
http://www.pbase.com/hpb

'We don't make a photograph just with a camera; we bring to the act
of photography all the books we have read, the movies we have seen,
the music we have heard, the people we have loved.' Ansel Adams

--

The French HiP -

http://hip2.free.fr/

Georgi · Jan 27, 2004

Andrew Mullan said:
Georgi said:

Andrew, what the hel* is a kiss?

Anyway, thanks for the support, now all I have to do is get some
pictures.

I still think I might do a little bit to get to Sony. After all, I
plan on setting up a form that people can simply fill out and e
mail to Sony.

Their views and comments, not mine

Goodnight. It's 4 am here and I have to go to bed but I'll be back
tomorrow to see if anyone has offered to send me any pics

George

Click to expand...

--
Andrew Mullan

I need pictures of the 828 (the CAMERA it is)

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