Disturbing images - shooting fish in a barrel

Chris Charlton said:

Greg Henry said:

Chris Charlton wrote:
""> Nice to know US soldiers don't have to adhere to the
international war crimes court, I guess it gives them a free hand
to try out all their neat litte killing devices on real humans, not
those dummies or computer simulations they are used to.

Just a reminder... those who took the airplanes and flew them into
the World Trade Center buildings didn't adhere to any courts, and
they weren't killing dummies or computer simulations.

Click to expand...

Just a reminder Greg, I know its difficult for people in the USA to
remember what happened from one day to the next, but the guys that
were responsible for killing almost 3000 people and the guy(s) (IE
Bin Laden and co) that gave the order and paid and organized the
entire terrorist attacks weren't from Iraq, they weren't anything
to do with Saddam, they weren't funded by Saddam or Iraq and in
fact were enemies of Saddam.

So what the hell does 9/11 have to do with Iraq? NOTHING!

Click to expand...

Exactly, there were many other reasons to go to war with Iraq. Maybe YOU have a short memory. The US has stated that it will no longer allow any country to threaten the US and it is a global war on terrorism, especially the terrorists that threaten the US. Iraq was a percieved threat, and had ample time to avoid war. If there is anyone to blame it is Saddam for letting things escalate to where they did.

Chris Charlton said:

And right now Bin Laden and his henchmen in the hills of pakistan
are planning the next attack, the taliban are getting stronger and
re-grouping and yet the US has 150,000 or so troops in Iraq and
only 11,000 or so in Afganistan...why?

Click to expand...

Because the Al Queda network is pretty much destroyed. Bin Laden is a much harder foe to contend with than Iraq was, and it will take years, to bring Bin Laden and Al Queda to justice.

Chris Charlton said:

Why aren't they bringing the murderers responsible for 9/11 to
justice?

Click to expand...

They are... person by person... have you not read the news as to how many people suspected of direct links to the attack on 9/11 are now in custody? THere are a LOT! This is not just about those particular people though. If N. Korea had not backed down, you can bet it would only be a matter of time before the US did something about it. The US is taking any threats against it very seriously. Iraq was a threat, regardless if there were WMDs or not. Saddam obviously was one of the worst problems the US had in the world. Not any more. Now the Iraqi people will get to taste freedom, but the process of rebuilding is a long one. Just look at Germany and Japan. But it will happen.

Regards,
Sean

Entrainer said:

Before we develop a technology for turning stone into oil,
Afghanistan wont be of any interest to US peak.

Click to expand...

This is such a typical short sighted answer. Clearly an uneducated one. Afganistan is no longer a threat to the US. Rebuilding is going along at a reasonable rate, and the country has already seen vast improvments for its people. You need to read the news more. There is still a long way to go, but much progress has been made. Afganistan might not be top news anymore, but there is a lot going on there. The US is still just as involved in Afganistan as ever.

Regards,
Sean

You are obviously just as much an armchair president as I or anyone else.

And yes, right from the beginning I believed Saddam's WMD was never a threat to us. How would he deliver it. Having thousands of tonnes of precursor chemicals does not mean you are anywhere near being able to deliver it.. especially intercontinentally to the US or UK.

You have swallowed Bushes B.S. hook, line and sinker. We so obviously disagree about this war's necessity, its motivations and its benefits, theres no point really in arguing.

Sean Keegan said:

It is easy for you to judge in hindsight isn't it. Don't you feel
so smart? You knew that Saddam did not have WMDs, right? He had
thumbed his nose at the UN and as the US for 10 years, and was
acting in ways that were very suspicious. If your son has used
drugs in the past, but claims he has none but his actions suggest
otherwise, and he has lied on numerous occasions in the past. Do
you believe him, or invade his room anyway suspecting drugs? If you
are a parent, you know you would inspect, and that the suspicion
would be reason enough. SO WHAT that no drugs or WMDs are found. We
did not know at the time for sure, and he was definitely a threat
until this could be ascertained. It is easy for some people to be
armchar presidents and know what should have happened. But there
was a lot at stake and Saddam had ample time to prevent this war.
It is not as if he did not have ample warning. He thought the US
was bluffing. Well we called his bluff. I am not a Bush supporter,
but I also scoff at the logic some people use to say that this war
has not been a benefit to the world. Did you not notice that Saddam
will never again torture or murder his own people ever again? That
he will never get WMDs and we are finally certain about that. That
the world is a better place?

Regards,
Sean

Regards,
Sean

Dom said:

It was in Saddams interest to keep fundamentalists DOWN and not get
too powerful in Iraq.. so that he could keep hold of power himself.

15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi.. not Iraqi!
Saudi and Iraqi governments have hated eachother for ages.

Please bring evidence of a link before bring 9/11 into the
argument. And since Bush and the CIA can't... well..

Oh wait..there is 1 link...
9/11 in part means Bush & co. now feel justified and supported
enough by the public to go to war with anyone they feel like;
evidence of usable WMD or not.
By the way.. make sure theres some serious oil and gas reserves
nearby.. and a good place for a caspian pipeline. Nothing wrong
with that, energy is important to our modern society, but just
please don't waffle on about setting people free, and revenge for
gassed kurds (we - uk and US ..supplied the chemicals.. and
Rumsfeld even met chummily with Saddam soon afterwards).

Greg Henry said:

Just a reminder... those who took the airplanes and flew them into
the World Trade Center buildings didn't adhere to any courts, and
they weren't killing dummies or computer simulations.

Sean Keegan said:

To see people so efficiently killed using my tax dollars used to
develop such weapons.

Nice to know US soldiers don't have to adhere to the international
war crimes court, I guess it gives them a free hand to try out all
their neat litte killing devices on real humans, not those dummies
or computer simulations they are used to.

Doesn't look like much attempt was made to let the individuals
surrender or hand themselves over to police....much like bush when
he made up all his bull to go to war in the first place.

There is not much we can do to reverse what has happened in Iraq,
but if we don't hold presidents responsible for their actions, we
are going to see this again and again and again.

Chris

Jared Hunter said:

http://www.journalism.co.uk/news/story795.shtml

This is a case where black and white is of lesser impact than
color. Being in monochrome through IR, it probably makes it a
little easier to pull the trigger as well, with the target people
reduced to nothing more than white silhouettes...

Click to expand...

--

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/dom277
There are 40 people in the world and 5 of them are hamburgers

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/dom277
There are 40 people in the world and 5 of them are hamburgers

Herb Kauhry said:

You have no idea how many 10's of thousands of people have viewed
this video and seen the terrible, deadly consequence of war - first
hand, and for the first time. It is considerably different - much
less impersonal - than the view from a video camera mounted on the
front of a laser-guided bomb, isn't it? Who has reacted to the
image of an A-bomb's mushroom cloud rising into the sky with the
same discomfort that this video generates?

For my money, the more people that see this clip and are thoroughly
disgusted by it, the better.

Maybe a few people will get the message and be motivated by it - to
live the rest of their lives working to wipe out wars, the worst
sort of behavior that mankind has ever conceived. Whoever said,
"War is Hell" was right. Study and learn. Those who fail to learn
from history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

War is ugly, shocking, disgusting, evil, wasteful, and deadly.
People die. That is the message - pass it on. Eventually, the
message will reach the Saddams and Osamas of the world, and they
will understand, too.

Click to expand...

Yeah right, do you think these people have an area of the brain that comprehends remorse? HA! They will never learn. The only thing these people understand is force.

dbevis said:

Then maybe we can all be assured that no more Sept. 11th's loom in
our planet's future.

Click to expand...

Well then, with your infinite wisdom, why don't you tell us how to go about accomplishing abolishment of war? It is easy to point out how horrible war is, but it is an entirely different thing to figure out how to solve the world's problems without war. Do you think anything but war would have stopped Hitler? DO you think anything but war would have gotten us the freedoms we enjoy today? Did the 10 years of political manuverings do anything to get Saddam back in line? Sometimes no amount of political "talks" will get one anywhere. War is sometimes the only way. Sad but true. It is human nature. It is horrible, but until there are no more people like Saddam, there will always be wars. If there is anyone to blame for wars, it is people like Saddam. The problem is there is no solutions to some age old problems.

Do you think the palastines and isreal will ever be peaceful? Even during times of relative peace between them, it is a forced peace, and one that cannot last. There is bound to be many more wars between them. What is your solution to these issues, to prevent war? It makes you seem very noble to protest all war and human killing, but I don't see you doing anything useful to that end. All the protesting in the world is not going to stop war. You need to find solutions to the problems.

Until then, wars are very effective means to get rid of people like Hitler and Saddam.

What if you could see the future and it shows that Saddam does eventualy develop nuclear weapons and uses them. Would you be against a war to stop him even though innocents might be killed? How hands off do you expect us to be? Let Saddam and others threaten the US (even if it is all a bluff as it seems Iraq was as we have not found WMDs)? Let madmen continue to destabilize their area of the world? Look at history, much of what we hold dear only came about because of wars. Horrible horrible wars!!!! The civil war, the worst and bloodiest war in US history. But look at what was accomplished. Was this war avoidable? Maybe, but do you think African Americans would have the same freedoms they have today? Do you think the US would be as united as it is today? Probably not. I could go on and on about almost every war in history. Wars bring about change, very rapid change. We will see how the Iraqi people are doing in 5 or 10 years time, and I doubt if there were not a war that they would be in as good of shape.

Regards,
Sean

Hence the clever remark about copyright infringement.

To be serious for a moment, what do people want here? Terrible things happen in the world all the time and have done from the dawn of time.

Secondly, I am not even going to entertain for one second any piece of footage that comes from a profit oriented, ratings driven news organization.

Had the BBC filmed the event I would tend to maybe pay a little more attention. I wasn't there so I don't know what happened really.

There are systems in place to explore these events, courts, sworn testimony by credible witnesses and so on and so forth. With really good video editing software now cost less than $60 (£30) who knows what we are looking at?

Nobody deserves to die in that kind of way. When Mankind decides to go its own way instead of heeding the teachings of the holy writings ( whichever you choose, the source is the same) then what do you expect? What kind of world do you want? It's perfectly reasonable to have a world where all people behave reasonably but some of us choose not to. I've never liked bad people and always because they take the easy way out. The trouble is, good people cannot sit by and do nothing.

Sorry about the rant, but as I get older so does everything else. I've seen it all before, nothing changes. Except maybe, the number of megapixels on high end full frame CCD/CMOS sensors!

One thing to add here. You can't see my body language or pick up small nuances about the way I am saying what I want you to understand. I'm sort of pleading rather than preaching. And like a lot of us, a bit frustrated because things don't seem to improve.

Ian

Why not read this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm

Later on the Taleban didn't play ball, making negotiating Bin Laden's handover in 2001 something that could not happen. It would not have served our purpose, and the relatiuonship was already on very bad terms.

The Caspian (North of Afhanistan) is the richest untapped source of oil and gas that is known about which remains in the world.

Entrainer said:

Before we develop a technology for turning stone into oil,
Afghanistan wont be of any interest to US peak.
--
()()
(6.6)
(U U)

Click to expand...

punkboy_jerm said:

thank you Herb. I could not agree more.
War is usless, war will lead to the death of us all. Why can't
people see the beauty in life and stop fighting over oil, money,
religion etc etc?!? I am sick of this world and I am sick of the
money hungry leaders who kill and send others to kill for thier
benefit!

Click to expand...

Ahhh, so the killing that happened for your benefit to gain you your freedom was all right, but not for the Iraqis hmmmm?

Well then give up all your freedoms and go live in N. Korea. You do not deserve to enjoy the freedoms that were won with blood and lives. Do you not understand that people are people and will never agree on everything. Wars should be avoided if possible, but not all wars are bad. Stopping evil men is never bad. The price for freedom is never too high. Saddam could only be stopped by war, in my opinion. I don't care if there were other motivations to get rid of the evil. There are never actions that are undertaken without selfish reasons, hardly ever. Look at your own actions even. We only entered WW2 when it benifited the US directly. But it was still a wonderful thing that we did.

Regards,
Sean

'The News' is not always 'the truth'. It is usually very edited and depending on where you get it from it can be heavily biased.

Sean Keegan said:

Entrainer said:

Before we develop a technology for turning stone into oil,
Afghanistan wont be of any interest to US peak.

Click to expand...

This is such a typical short sighted answer. Clearly an uneducated
one. Afganistan is no longer a threat to the US. Rebuilding is
going along at a reasonable rate, and the country has already seen
vast improvments for its people. You need to read the news more.
There is still a long way to go, but much progress has been made.
Afganistan might not be top news anymore, but there is a lot going
on there. The US is still just as involved in Afganistan as ever.

Regards,
Sean

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/dom277
There are 40 people in the world and 5 of them are hamburgers

I have heard a lot about how there is barely any money going into rebuilding afghanistan.. not nearling enough to make an improvement nationwide.. at the rate presently there wouldn't be noticeable improvement for the average person for decades.

Dom said:

And yes, right from the beginning I believed Saddam's WMD was never
a threat to us. How would he deliver it. Having thousands of tonnes
of precursor chemicals does not mean you are anywhere near being
able to deliver it.. especially intercontinentally to the US or UK.

Click to expand...

Wow, you sure are smart, you should be president.

Why do you think WMDs have to be delivered in those manners? Wouldn't a suitcase work just as well? Again your short sightedness really shoots your arguments in the foot. The world is not about distance or number of missiles a country has anymore. Haven't you noticed? The US and UK have to deal with many more threats now, most of them unseen. What country would dare risk attacking the US outright? Only if they wanted suicide. Any threat is to be taken seriously, and until we knew for sure if Saddam had WMDs, his actions labeled him threat #1!!!

Dom167916 said:

You have swallowed Bushes B.S. hook, line and sinker. We so
obviously disagree about this war's necessity, its motivations and
its benefits, theres no point really in arguing.

Click to expand...

Fine, then refrain from posting. I do not support Bush, I voted for Gore. However, I am just realistic with how the world works, and understand the need for the US to defend itself against even percieved threats. You did not know if Iraq had WMDs, no one did. But he was acting in ways that made him highly suspicious. And rather than wait for the smoking gun, and Saddam would be an idiot to have the smoking gun in any way connect to him.... you saw what happened to the Taliban, right? If you act like a threat, then you are a treat. And if N. Korea keeps going down the path they were going, they could be next. Sad but true.

Regards,
Sean