CA/PF Response from Carl...Zeiss!

Carl Zeiss
Geschäftsbereich Photoobjektive/Camera Lens Division
Manager Marketing

There's also the person's name and contact info, but, I'm not going to post that.
Do you have a source for this Carl-Zeiss's reply?

nunatak
the born 2 design
design guy
 
carl Zeiss are playing at semantics in criticizing the review for
using the term chromatic aberration. I suppose that if Phil had put
a ? mark next to the term they would have been happier.

How about aberrant colour - is that better? A pig by any other name
smells the same!
Speaking of smells, I can't get comfortable about a statement in that Zeiss e-mail as quoted:

"Chromatic aberration occurs nowhere in the sample photos of that test
report."

Well --

(1) It's almost a sure bet that it does, in its own right, and that it wouldn't be too hard to unearth if one were to download the lot at full res. and look. I'm not about to squander the bandwidth (mine or Phil's) on a pointless exercise.

(2) I can't see Zeiss being so foolish or unguarded as to make that near-generalisation. There's CA in virtually any lens, even if sometimes it's less than negligible at common viewing sizes.

Mike
 
None of us can find the actual cause for CA/PF.

So, just send an open letter with this email from Zeiss to Sony and let them reply this "lens probelm" mentioned by Zeiss.

And it is interesting to see what will happen then.

Can this work?

Andy
 
Speaking of smells, I can't get comfortable about a statement in
that Zeiss e-mail as quoted:

"Chromatic aberration occurs nowhere in the sample photos of that test
report."

Well --

(1) It's almost a sure bet that it does, in its own right, and that
it wouldn't be too hard to unearth if one were to download the lot
at full res. and look. I'm not about to squander the bandwidth
(mine or Phil's) on a pointless exercise.
If you're curious, I think this sample from dcresource's 828 review represents CA. The palm tree on the right shows it the most, with green fringe on one side and purple fringe on the other.

This link is to the full size image.

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/sony/dsc_f828-review/DSC02557.JPG

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root
 
Ulysses, there's a simple reason why the CA is caused by lens and not by sensor or something else. CA is decreasing when F value is increasing. That's VERY typical for lens CA. For sensor F values don't make any difference - it just measures the amount of light.
In any case, i doesn't look at all like a software/firmware problem
  • i'm 99% sure it's a CZ lens that's causing CA/PF.
Unfortunately, we're all in a position of wait and see. None of us
has a firm handle on what is causing the problem, and none of us
has a real solution. For now there are only work-arounds, which we
can either accept and continue taking pictures, or we can not
accept along with griping about it.

--

Ulysses
--
---------------
http://s87486672.onlinehome.us/
 
While I appreciate your posting (as I'm sure others here appreciate it) this news to the forum, I'm afraid you are not going to see a firmware update from Sony on this.

This is only MY opinion on this and, I hope I'm totally incorrect on it but, if they have not YET done anything about this very obvious character flaw

(character flaw only in that it taints the overal image of the camera) then just when are you expecting them to actually take action on this? The camera has been reviewed by the eyes of those who are in the know about camera technicals, I'm sure Sony is aware of this "stuff".......

yet you do not hear a single word uttered from Sony central ;-)

Could it signal a slight design change introduction at PMA......
bypassing the entire issue on the F828 altogether?

Mark J

Mark J
I forget what my orginal email was...I did mention Phil's review
and provided a link to it...here is the response I just got:

Thank you for your e-mail.

Purple fringing with the Sony F-828 occurs only in spots with
significant
overexposure. It is caused by the image processing algorithms used
in this
camera. The lens does not contribute to this effect.
Chromatic aberration is something completely different. The term
"chromatic
aberration" is incorrectly used in the test report you mention. The
author
of that test report confused "chromatic aberration" with "color
fringing".
Chromatic aberration occurs nowhere in the sample photos of that test
report.
The purple fringing might be corrected by Sony in a future software or
firmware update.

Best regards,
 
I realy hope I won't ofend anyone with this coment. But all of this looks like some sort of a mob war. The angry F828 owners attack. While Carl Zeiss blaims the Sony, Sony preffers to play cool and act as if nothing huppend. You can make a sopeopera out of this. he he
 
Comments below...
If it isn't lens-related, I'd be very interested to hear how come
stopping down the lens has a significant effect on it.
when you stop down the lens you let less light in,there fore you do
not overload the sensor and it gives less purple
Sorry, that doesn't wash. In order to get the same exposure, you
need to get the same amount of light to the sensor: if you stop
down, that means you need to leave the shutter open longer. The
sensor doesn't care whether the light comes in all at once or over
a longer time.
Your description applies to film cameras, and to DSLRs (which,
for purposes of this discussion, are converted film cameras).
It may, or may not, apply to a digicam like the 828.

I'd be willing to bet that the 828 has NO mechanical shutter,
for two simple reasons:
1. It makes no mechanical noise, and
2. Mechanical shutters are expensive and trouble prone.

There MAY be an electronic equivalent of a focal-plane shutter.
However, I don't recall seeing any such device in front of the
sensors in the digicam drawings I've seen. So the shutter effect
may simply be the period that the sensor is allowed to integrate
the incident light (if that's what it does).

I note that Phil's specification table describes the A1 shutter
as a combination of electronic and mechanical (?); but his
828 spec table does not characterize the 828's shutter
implementation.

Are there anyone out there that can provide links showing
exactly how the 828 implements its shutter function...
or even a "typical" CCD digicam's shutter function?

In order to really know what is going on in the 828, it would
require an understanding not only of the shutter implementation,
but also of the new sensor's reciprocity characteristics.

BTW, even film has reciprocity issues. The departure from
ideal intensity/time equivalence is called "reciprocity failure,"
and is sometimes part of published film tests.

A simple experiment that might shed some light on this would
be the following:
1. Find a fringe-producing target, and shoot it with manual
settings.
2. Add an ND filter, and shoot it at the same aperture,
compensating with a shutter speed change.
3. With the same ND filter, shoot it again using aperture
compensation, and the original shutter speed.

All of this would probably work best with a rather subtle case
of fringing. A total sensor blowout would probably just look
like a total sensor blowout with any of these variations.

Any 828 users want to try it, and report back?
Petteri
--
 
Old Ed wrote:
There MAY be an electronic equivalent of a focal-plane shutter.
However, I don't recall seeing any such device in front of the
sensors in the digicam drawings I've seen. So the shutter effect
may simply be the period that the sensor is allowed to integrate
the incident light (if that's what it does).
 
What non of the companies tell you is that the lens on f828 is NOT realy made by Carl Zeiss. Some time ago when sony came out with F717 I think, Sony cut a deal with Carl Zeiss that they can use Carl Zeiss name on their lenses. And so it huppend. Beside the name the lens has actualy very little to do with Clarl Zeiss, my guess is thats the reason why they preffer blame sony, and the reson this problem exists in the first place.
 
That's not the entire explanation. Petteri's original post on this is right in line with Phil's comments in the F828 review. Lens issues and sensor issues work in combination here.
Ulysses, there's a simple reason why the CA is caused by lens and
not by sensor or something else. CA is decreasing when F value is
increasing. That's VERY typical for lens CA. For sensor F values
don't make any difference - it just measures the amount of light.
--

Ulysses
 
it has no shutter in the classic sense, instead the aperture opens then closes.
Old Ed wrote:
There MAY be an electronic equivalent of a focal-plane shutter.
However, I don't recall seeing any such device in front of the
sensors in the digicam drawings I've seen. So the shutter effect
may simply be the period that the sensor is allowed to integrate
the incident light (if that's what it does).
--
JohnK
 
There's a simple solution to this problem. Not a very ethical one, but simple.

1. Buy the F828 with an extended warranty.

2. Deal with the purple to the best of your ability until the next version comes out. (F939?)
3. Print out about 5 of your pictures with purple fringeing.

4. Take the camera and the pictures to the store and exchange it for the new model.

That is why you paid the $150 for the 3 year extended warranty after all.

Not that I'd do this because it doesn't seem ethical, but if it is a default from the manufacturer then ...
I forget what my orginal email was...I did mention Phil's review
and provided a link to it...here is the response I just got:

Thank you for your e-mail.

Purple fringing with the Sony F-828 occurs only in spots with
significant
overexposure. It is caused by the image processing algorithms used
in this
camera. The lens does not contribute to this effect.
Chromatic aberration is something completely different. The term
"chromatic
aberration" is incorrectly used in the test report you mention. The
author
of that test report confused "chromatic aberration" with "color
fringing".
Chromatic aberration occurs nowhere in the sample photos of that test
report.
The purple fringing might be corrected by Sony in a future software or
firmware update.

Best regards,
 
Old Ed wrote:
[snip]
Your description applies to film cameras, and to DSLRs (which,
for purposes of this discussion, are converted film cameras).
It may, or may not, apply to a digicam like the 828.

I'd be willing to bet that the 828 has NO mechanical shutter,
for two simple reasons:
1. It makes no mechanical noise, and
2. Mechanical shutters are expensive and trouble prone.
And I'd be willing to bet that it does -- unless Sony has managed to solve one central issue of sensor design. At least until now, sensors continue to absorb photons as they're being sampled. This means that cameras without mechanical shutters to cover the sensor during the read period will produce pictures that have noticeable "striping" or "smear." Check out the Olympus E-20 review for an example: it has a hi-speed mode that disables the mechanical shutter, and produces a classic example of this.

Of course, maybe Sony has solved it. That would make the 828 the first (AFAIK) high-end digital camera with no mechanical shutter. So far, only the bottom-feeder cheapies have had that implementation.

[snip]
Are there anyone out there that can provide links showing
exactly how the 828 implements its shutter function...
or even a "typical" CCD digicam's shutter function?
You're right not to take my word for it. I'm tired, it's late, and I don't feel like Googling for it. And, in fact, I may even be mistaken about it. I'm willing to bet a pint of beer, though, that if you do the research, you'll find that it's more or less like that.
In order to really know what is going on in the 828, it would
require an understanding not only of the shutter implementation,
but also of the new sensor's reciprocity characteristics.

BTW, even film has reciprocity issues. The departure from
ideal intensity/time equivalence is called "reciprocity failure,"
and is sometimes part of published film tests.
Sensors don't have reciprocity issues. Expose them long enough, and the image will break down due to thermal noise, but not reciprocity. CCD's and CMOS sensors are totally linear devices -- the wells fill up at a constant rate as they capture photons, until they blow out (and bloom).
A simple experiment that might shed some light on this would
be the following:
1. Find a fringe-producing target, and shoot it with manual
settings.
2. Add an ND filter, and shoot it at the same aperture,
compensating with a shutter speed change.
3. With the same ND filter, shoot it again using aperture
compensation, and the original shutter speed.
This would resolve the issue. I'd be willing to bet that the only thing that'll affect the problem is aperture (and, if the ND filter is a poor one, the reduction in contrast that it'll produce).

So, my prediction would be:

1. Shows PF. (That's the point, no?)

2. Shows the same or at most very slightly decreased PF (the decrease being due to the decrease in contrast caused by the ND filter, if it's a poor one).
3. Shows less PF.

I'd be interested to see the results, though. It has to be a genuine ND filter, though -- a polarizer won't do, as it'll do all kinds of things to the contrast (e.g. cutting out the specular reflections that tend to cause PF in the first place).

Petteri
--




Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Pontification: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/ ]
 
I've heard this before but everytime I ask for evidence I get none in return. The "Official" word (I know they could be lying) from the Zeiss website is they make the lens. You would think if they didn't, tons of photography websites would carry this information. The DPR F828 review I would think should have said something. Not even the 717 reviews hint to this... I would think a photography site with a story titled "Sony buys name, not lens" would be an attention getter...

Rumors on the internet spread very easily. Be carefull of believing everything you read here. I'm not saying it isn't true, only to verify. Ziessgate hasn't pass the the bolony detection test yet. More evidence is needed.

--



http://www.f828-photography.com
 
I'd be willing to bet that the 828 has NO mechanical shutter,
for two simple reasons:
1. It makes no mechanical noise, and
2. Mechanical shutters are expensive and trouble prone.
And I'd be willing to bet that it does -- unless Sony has managed
to solve one central issue of sensor design. At least until now,
sensors continue to absorb photons as they're being sampled. This
means that cameras without mechanical shutters to cover the sensor
during the read period will produce pictures that have noticeable
"striping" or "smear." Check out the Olympus E-20 review for an
example: it has a hi-speed mode that disables the mechanical
shutter, and produces a classic example of this.

Of course, maybe Sony has solved it. That would make the 828 the
first (AFAIK) high-end digital camera with no mechanical shutter.
So far, only the bottom-feeder cheapies have had that
implementation.
The E100 uses an electronic shutter in it's higher frame rate modes --- and now don't you be callin my camera a bottom feeder! ;o)

It seems you need a progressive scan CCD for an electronic shutter to work. The E100 has one, and the E20 dropped down to half resolution (dropping the every other line interlacing) to function as a progressive scan for it's electronic shutter hi-speed mode.

I think you're right that the only others to use this are the real cheapie cams that use a progressive scan CCD to eliminate the mechanical shutter just for cost savings.

Dave
 

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