William Wilgus
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William
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Disturbing images - shooting fish in a barrel
- Thread starter Jared Hunter
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Radu Tenenbaum
Senior Member
Radu Tenenbaum
Senior Member
punkboy_jerm
Forum Enthusiast
how can these people sleep at night?
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Jeremy C
http://www.urbanimages.org
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Jeremy C
http://www.urbanimages.org
http://www.fighttheoctopus.com
Brandon Hamilton
Well-known member
Much better probably, knowing that these islamic wackos arent around to kil more innocent people.
And in response to Yoav Nir, I never said that all iraqis are islamic, nor that all people of islam are extremists. I am also not "dehumanizing" them to make killing them more platable. Islamic extremists who kill thousands and thousands and thousands of innocent people in the name of their "god", deserve to die. These individuals were obviously being targeted for one reason or another. The part you DIDn't see, was these guys being followed from earlier in the day where they killed 2 US soldiers and 10 innocent iraqi civilians by setting off some kind of roadside bomb.
Killing these 3, probably saved x2 as many innocent lives, or even more.
In response to the guy complaining about them RE-firing on the wounded guy, don't be rediculous. They were there to KILL them, not wound them. The guy was blown to peices and had just enough juice left to crawn out from behind the truck with his one remaining arm, probably yelling "FINISH ME". The soldiers did EXACTLY what they were supposed to do, and did it quite well if you ask me. The only thing left to do is get the rest of them.
And in response to Yoav Nir, I never said that all iraqis are islamic, nor that all people of islam are extremists. I am also not "dehumanizing" them to make killing them more platable. Islamic extremists who kill thousands and thousands and thousands of innocent people in the name of their "god", deserve to die. These individuals were obviously being targeted for one reason or another. The part you DIDn't see, was these guys being followed from earlier in the day where they killed 2 US soldiers and 10 innocent iraqi civilians by setting off some kind of roadside bomb.
Killing these 3, probably saved x2 as many innocent lives, or even more.
In response to the guy complaining about them RE-firing on the wounded guy, don't be rediculous. They were there to KILL them, not wound them. The guy was blown to peices and had just enough juice left to crawn out from behind the truck with his one remaining arm, probably yelling "FINISH ME". The soldiers did EXACTLY what they were supposed to do, and did it quite well if you ask me. The only thing left to do is get the rest of them.
austex
Leading Member
I've looked at the video, and while it's been a few years since I was in the Army, I'm fairly certain that on the left side is a tank, and that it was recently fired (the barrel is quite hot and was the first thing I noticed). I've seen tanks through IR at all different angles, and the barrels are always the first thing that jumps out at you. I don't see any problem with this video.
The Iraqis should have deserted their unit if they wanted to live.
Being an Iraqi around military equipment, even at night, during the war is a sure way to die.
War is hell. Any footage of war and people being killed is unnerving if your not used to it.
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Member of the 'I own a Canon and a Sony' Army
The Iraqis should have deserted their unit if they wanted to live.
Being an Iraqi around military equipment, even at night, during the war is a sure way to die.
War is hell. Any footage of war and people being killed is unnerving if your not used to it.
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Member of the 'I own a Canon and a Sony' Army
Ken Phillips
Forum Pro
... it appears to me that the media are portraying this as more of a bogged-down Vietnam scenario, which it most certainly isn't.
Ken
I don't believe in fate, but I do believe in f/8!
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Ken
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dave.sweden
Leading Member
on board Israelie tanks.That would shake up a few naive people,and show who the bad guys really are.Film like this show us how it is,and there is nothing wrong with pointing out the facts of life,be it good or bad.
Dave.
Dave.
J
John Burns
Guest
Sean Keegan
Senior Member
This was no war crime... you need to bone up on the Geneva convention. Do you even know the rules of war? I doubt it.
They were armed. The clip is taken out of context, parts of the clip were removed that show them carrying weapons. You seem very rash and quick to jump to conslusions based on almost no evidence.
Again you judge on a clip taken out of the context of the big picture. This is proof that this should never have been made public, as there are some, like you, who will never understand, or make an effort to understand, what it really shows, and judge on your moral high horse with no details of the situation. You make me sick. What do you think war is? You can object against war all you want... nothing wrong with that. But war is war, and you cannot judge the people engaged in a conflict. Judge Saddam, or Bush who caused this to happen. Again, personally I think, Saddam is the one who is at fault.
More likely, they did not even know they were being watched. Helecopters such as the Apache can shoot from way beyond earshot. DO you even think before you post?
Eh? ALthough I am not a Bush supporter, this crazy talk.
But if you do nothing, future Americans are sure to be killed by these same soldiers. Just because you are not threatened directly does not mean you can do nothing about it. It is a soldiers job to protect his own, and kill everyone if you cannot take prisoners. This is the way war is waged. If you cannot live with it, then make it your agenda to oppose all war.
Yes they do! But they are sometimes the only way... not saying it was the only way in this case, but at least Saddam is no longer a threat.
Doesn't seem like it. You have the right to an opinion as long as it is well thought through with logic and understanding. Your opinions are obviously off the cuff remarks based on little evidence and seem like an agenda to me. If you do not think war is okay, fine, but do not twist the rules of war to justify your opinions. Lets keep things truthful here.
Regards,
Sean
austex
Leading Member
Although we'll never know the full context of the video,to anybody who has trained with IR gear that looks like either a tank or self-propelled artillery piece on the left side (one that's recently fired no less, the barrel looks hot).
Regardless, people can see it as cruel or necessary depending on their views of the war.
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Member of the 'I own a Canon and a Sony' Army
Regardless, people can see it as cruel or necessary depending on their views of the war.
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Member of the 'I own a Canon and a Sony' Army
Sean Keegan
Senior Member
Because in the first war the UN resolution clearly said nothing about invading IRAQ, it was only to drive IRAQ out of Kuwait. If the US had invaded IRAQ to take out Saddam, that would have been overstepping the UN resolutions on this conflict, and acting unilaterallly. And you can bet the world would have reacted unfavorably.
Yes, but when the enemy is hiding amoung the populace this kind of thing happens sometimes. IT is unfortunate, and I wish I knew a solution, but it is the soldiers job to protect themselves, and sometimes mistakes are made. Do you know anything at all about Vietnam? This kind of thing happened a lot, but there are other cases where soldiers were in a similar situation, and did nothing thinking those around them were unarmed civillians and then they were slaughtered by the enemy hiding amoung them. What is the answer to this kind of fighting? Who knows. I personally blame the people who choose to fight this way. Who are the immoral ones, the ones who deliberately threaten civilians by these methods? Or the ones forced to defend themselves and making mistakes at times because they cannot tell who is enemy and who is friend.
Regards,
Sean
Sean Keegan
Senior Member
Any soldier has to live with their actions. War in any form is hard on the people involved. But war is war, it is their job to kill people. How can you sleep at night knowing you are judging people with no evidence. You have already determined their guilt based on what? Your gut feeling? Get a grip.
Regards,
Sean
Regards,
Sean
Sean Keegan
Senior Member
Austex,
I was a tanker in the Army and I know how to read thermal sight imagery, and that is definitely not a tank, it is a tractor. The "hot barrel" is the sky pointing exhaust pipe.
This, however does not mean they are shooting farmers. In fact, no one here knows for sure, and should not be judging. In fact, there is plenty of video evidence that these people had been watched for some time and that they were hiding weapons, but that part of the video has been conveniently cut, leaving this small clip taken out of context. More evidence these are soldiers, after the first soldier is shot, the guy by the tractor is frantically opening something, which could very well be a weapon of some kind. He is definitely not trying to surrender or run. He was preparing to fight the unseen enemy. He also did not know where the fire was coming from as he was ducking down behind the tractor for cover, not knowing he was not hiding at all. He was not ripping something to make a surrender flag as someone suggested... that is surrendering in the cartoons, and never happens in real life... all one needs to do to surrender in real life is throw your arms to the sky and come out in the open making it clear you mean no harm... but in this case, even if they had surrendered they could still be killed lawfully as a helicopter cannot take prisoners, and depending on what led up to this incident, they could choose to kill them anyway, if they were determined to be dangerous, or let them go. Most likely, from my experiences as a tanker, they would be killed in order to save future lives. This is completely by the rules for units that cannot take prisoners. Horrifying, but that is war. It is the job of a soldier to prevent their fellow soldiers from being attacked in the future, that is why tankers, and helicopters etc. take no prisoners usually, unless there are ground troops nearby. But in this case, if you read the info about it, there were no ground troops, so it is kill everyone there. Those are the rules of engagement.
Regards,
Sean
I was a tanker in the Army and I know how to read thermal sight imagery, and that is definitely not a tank, it is a tractor. The "hot barrel" is the sky pointing exhaust pipe.
This, however does not mean they are shooting farmers. In fact, no one here knows for sure, and should not be judging. In fact, there is plenty of video evidence that these people had been watched for some time and that they were hiding weapons, but that part of the video has been conveniently cut, leaving this small clip taken out of context. More evidence these are soldiers, after the first soldier is shot, the guy by the tractor is frantically opening something, which could very well be a weapon of some kind. He is definitely not trying to surrender or run. He was preparing to fight the unseen enemy. He also did not know where the fire was coming from as he was ducking down behind the tractor for cover, not knowing he was not hiding at all. He was not ripping something to make a surrender flag as someone suggested... that is surrendering in the cartoons, and never happens in real life... all one needs to do to surrender in real life is throw your arms to the sky and come out in the open making it clear you mean no harm... but in this case, even if they had surrendered they could still be killed lawfully as a helicopter cannot take prisoners, and depending on what led up to this incident, they could choose to kill them anyway, if they were determined to be dangerous, or let them go. Most likely, from my experiences as a tanker, they would be killed in order to save future lives. This is completely by the rules for units that cannot take prisoners. Horrifying, but that is war. It is the job of a soldier to prevent their fellow soldiers from being attacked in the future, that is why tankers, and helicopters etc. take no prisoners usually, unless there are ground troops nearby. But in this case, if you read the info about it, there were no ground troops, so it is kill everyone there. Those are the rules of engagement.
Regards,
Sean
Sean Keegan
Senior Member
See my reply to you above....
S
synp
Guest
Actually, there are, but they rarely get published. Also, tanks are used very rarely in the west bank and Gaza, helicopters are used far more often.
Also, unlike in Iraq, the media has almost unlimited access, so you can see any action of the Israeli army broadcast on CNN, BBC, even Al-Jazeera.
Also, unlike in Iraq, the media has almost unlimited access, so you can see any action of the Israeli army broadcast on CNN, BBC, even Al-Jazeera.
Radu Tenenbaum
Senior Member
S
synp
Guest
There you go again. These could be Shiite, Suni, Christian, or anything else. The Iraqis ambushing American troops are not particularly religious.
And yet to called these people islamic, wackos and non-human.
How about Iraqi extremists who kill American soldiers in the name of their leader or country?
Which, if true, is why the US army killed them. They didn't "deserve" it any more then the 2 dead Americans did. That's war. The people who die rarely deserve it.
I'm not saying the US army was wrong to kill them. What I am saying, is that the mere fact that they were fighting American soldiers, does not put them on any moral low-ground such that I would say that they deserve to die.
You seem to need them to be inhuman, wacko, Islamic extremists. You need them to deserve to die. That kind of attitude worries me.
Chris Charlton
Senior Member
To see people so efficiently killed using my tax dollars used to develop such weapons.
Nice to know US soldiers don't have to adhere to the international war crimes court, I guess it gives them a free hand to try out all their neat litte killing devices on real humans, not those dummies or computer simulations they are used to.
Doesn't look like much attempt was made to let the individuals surrender or hand themselves over to police....much like bush when he made up all his bull to go to war in the first place.
There is not much we can do to reverse what has happened in Iraq, but if we don't hold presidents responsible for their actions, we are going to see this again and again and again.
Chris
Nice to know US soldiers don't have to adhere to the international war crimes court, I guess it gives them a free hand to try out all their neat litte killing devices on real humans, not those dummies or computer simulations they are used to.
Doesn't look like much attempt was made to let the individuals surrender or hand themselves over to police....much like bush when he made up all his bull to go to war in the first place.
There is not much we can do to reverse what has happened in Iraq, but if we don't hold presidents responsible for their actions, we are going to see this again and again and again.
Chris
Sean Keegan
Senior Member
Once again, someone decides to make a comment without thinking things through. Did you even read all the posts in this thread. Maybe you need to do some thinking before spouting off at the mouth. There is nothing immoral or illegal about what this video depicts. Is it horrible? Yes. Is it illegal? No. Is it war. Yes. Is it the way wars are fought? Yes. What do you think happens in the world so you can keep your freedom of speach? Not just in this was, but in every war ever fought! I would suggest reading all the posts in this thread, maybe it will open your eyes a bit. Not everything is black and white simple.
You think you know it all don't you. You had better read the rest of this thread and then see what you think of these soldiers. You have no idea what this video is showing.
This is war. You think this is bad? Have you been paying attention to history? War is always bad. No matter if the war is just or not.
Regards,
Sean
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