A1 file formats

Chris G B

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Hi to all

Having done some test shots from my new A1 (replacement due to magenta band down left hand side), I find that the differences in image quality with different file types is more prominent. For tonal range, RAW is top. For detail, TIFF seems to produce best image quality from detail and lack of noise point of view. There is also a marked difference between the 3 JPEG levels now, with super fine being just about differentiated from fine (at very high mag) and standard being obviously compressed. Odd, but it will do me. Nice to have the choice.

This year I may be mostly shooting "soft" TIFF. Best I go and buy an X-Drive then :-)

PS, was looking on STF earlier (just catching up on news of the one I did not buy) and was pleased to see that Sony are well aware of Phil's excellent website and are influenced by the reviews and forums. One wonders if Minolta staff are reading these forums and reviews as well.

Thanks for an excellent website Phil.

Chris
 
Having done some test shots from my new A1 (replacement due to
magenta band down left hand side), I find that the differences in
image quality with different file types is more prominent. For
tonal range, RAW is top. For detail, TIFF seems to produce best
image quality from detail and lack of noise point of view.
Are you finding camera TIFF and DiMAGE Viewer TIFF are different? Can you describe the difference in more detail?
 
Having done some test shots from my new A1 (replacement due to
magenta band down left hand side), I find that the differences in
image quality with different file types is more prominent. For
tonal range, RAW is top. For detail, TIFF seems to produce best
image quality from detail and lack of noise point of view.
Are you finding camera TIFF and DiMAGE Viewer TIFF are different?
Can you describe the difference in more detail?
Hi

I will try to break down my findings as well as I can in words. All file formats are as they came from the camera and viewed in DV.

Resolution:

All file formats at all sharpness settings produce the same basic information in the same pixels. All shots were taken in "soft" to eliminate sharpening artefacts from the images. The differences in presentation that seperate the formats is as follows. RAW (taken as the benchmark) has high level of detail, presenting small (

TIFF will produce the same grey line as a much more consistent grey tone. The contrast seems higher at microscopic scale as the borders between grey line and white background are less graduated. The effect is to produce more apparent detail without sharpening artefacts.

XFINE JPEG is about the same as RAW.

FINE JPEG is showing very slight signs of compression losses.

Standard JPEG is showing significant JPEG artefacts, particularly around sharp edges of high contrast detail.

Noise:

RAW produces a higher visible noise count than the other formats.

TIFF produces the lowest visible noise count, however what noise there is seems more contrasty and further away from the average colour of the surrounding area.

XFINE JPEG produces noise worse than TIFF for count, but less than RAW. The noise is also less contrasty than either TIFF or RAW.

FINE JPEG is as XFINE for noise, but some very slight JPEG artefacts can bee seen around noise.

STD JPEG is as XFINE for noise, but significant JPEG artefacts add artificial texture to smooth areas and artificially boosts contast around noise.

Tonality:

The RAW file shows a definate advantage over the other formats in preserving a smooth trasition across a faded / blended gradient.

TIFF is the most contrasty presentation, showing less subtelty in smooth gradations but lending the image a more punchy feel.

JPEGs generally were between TIFF and RAW, but STD JPEG was prone to make transition areas occupy less pixels.

Of course, all these are observations at very high maginification. Grey lines were just 5 pixels wide, sharp black lines were just 2 pixels wide and the tone chart was far enough away to occupy just 22 pixels. To summarise the effects for daily use:

RAW: Good for post processing latitude and particularly the delicate game of retrieving shadow detail. Bad for percieved noise. A pass through Neat Image is most likely if A3 printing is your output.

TIFF: Good for punchy high definition images where exposure control is good and post processing is not high priority and for images where noise is really going to be a consideration. Bad for scenes requiring more atmosphere than detail.

XFINE JPEG: Best compromise for daily shooting in general subjects. If exposure is good.

FINE JPEG: Lots of images per CF card and good enough to print A3 from.

STD JPEG: Good for images that will be viewed on screen only, or if storage is at a premium and you are not envisaging printing bigger than A4.

My A1 now has it's custom dial set to file format, so for any given scene, I can dial up the required storage setting in two seconds. The more I use it, the more I love my A1!

Chris
 
I thought that the RAW format of images was what it says on the tin - a raw dump of the sensor data. Surely the differences detailed so wonderfully above tell more about the processing software used (whether in camera or elsewhere) than anything else. Surely there can be no more detail available than what is in the RAW image.

Or am I misunderstanding something......?

Cheers,

Jon
 
Hi Chris,

Does your replacement A1 have the same magenta banding problem? Also, could you let us know what the first 4 digits of the serial number is? I've been holding off getting another A1 until I get more confidence in Minolta's QC. Just wondering at what point I should try my luck again. Thanks. -Norm
Hi to all

Having done some test shots from my new A1 (replacement due to
magenta band down left hand side), I find that the differences in
image quality with different file types is more prominent. For
tonal range, RAW is top. For detail, TIFF seems to produce best
image quality from detail and lack of noise point of view. There is
also a marked difference between the 3 JPEG levels now, with super
fine being just about differentiated from fine (at very high mag)
and standard being obviously compressed. Odd, but it will do me.
Nice to have the choice.

This year I may be mostly shooting "soft" TIFF. Best I go and buy
an X-Drive then :-)

PS, was looking on STF earlier (just catching up on news of the one
I did not buy) and was pleased to see that Sony are well aware of
Phil's excellent website and are influenced by the reviews and
forums. One wonders if Minolta staff are reading these forums and
reviews as well.

Thanks for an excellent website Phil.

Chris
 
I thought that the RAW format of images was what it says on the tin
  • a raw dump of the sensor data. Surely the differences detailed so
wonderfully above tell more about the processing software used
(whether in camera or elsewhere) than anything else. Surely there
can be no more detail available than what is in the RAW image.

Or am I misunderstanding something......?

Cheers,

Jon
I don't think you are. I think Chris' observations are very interesting, but I note that he's used the 'soft' setting. According to the Minolta manual in the .pdf format, p.97, this applies a 'soft' filter, and thus blurs the image slightly - you can see this in the images reproduced in the manual. The only setting which applies no filter is 'normal' and I'm a little puzzled, Chris, why you changed this?

Adam-T has suggested that the jpeg settings supress some noise at the expense of detail, and my own tests very much support this - see my shots in the 'RAW vs jpeg' thread, where to my eye (and others!) there is appreciably more detail in the RAW (top) image than in the xtrafine jpeg, which I feel is slightly 'smeared' in the finest detail.

I shoot RAW almost exclusively now. Noise is somewhat increased, as one would expect from Adam-T's suggestion, but the wonderful NeatImage really does take care of that with minimal loss of detail. AAMOI I use +2 on the saturation setting, and +1 (warmer) on the colour setting in the excellent Dimage Viewer. YMMV

As an aside we have acquired a resident peacock in our grounds, and on a gloomy afternoon the AS on the A1 enabled me to get some excellent shots which my Canon G3 failed to do.

--
TonySD
A1 + RAW + NeatImage = happiness!
 
Hello Tony - Can you comment on how RAW + NI compare to XF JPG? Which gives a sharper and more detailed image? It would seem to me that you would lose whatever increased detail with RAW as soon as you apply the NI filtering. Based on my comparisons from my various A1 samples, I have found a very small difference in detail between RAW and XF JPG when viewed at 100%. Comments welcomed. -Norm
I thought that the RAW format of images was what it says on the tin
  • a raw dump of the sensor data. Surely the differences detailed so
wonderfully above tell more about the processing software used
(whether in camera or elsewhere) than anything else. Surely there
can be no more detail available than what is in the RAW image.

Or am I misunderstanding something......?

Cheers,

Jon
I don't think you are. I think Chris' observations are very
interesting, but I note that he's used the 'soft' setting.
According to the Minolta manual in the .pdf format, p.97, this
applies a 'soft' filter, and thus blurs the image slightly - you
can see this in the images reproduced in the manual. The only
setting which applies no filter is 'normal' and I'm a little
puzzled, Chris, why you changed this?

Adam-T has suggested that the jpeg settings supress some noise at
the expense of detail, and my own tests very much support this -
see my shots in the 'RAW vs jpeg' thread, where to my eye (and
others!) there is appreciably more detail in the RAW (top) image
than in the xtrafine jpeg, which I feel is slightly 'smeared' in
the finest detail.

I shoot RAW almost exclusively now. Noise is somewhat increased,
as one would expect from Adam-T's suggestion, but the wonderful
NeatImage really does take care of that with minimal loss of
detail. AAMOI I use +2 on the saturation setting, and +1 (warmer)
on the colour setting in the excellent Dimage Viewer. YMMV

As an aside we have acquired a resident peacock in our grounds, and
on a gloomy afternoon the AS on the A1 enabled me to get some
excellent shots which my Canon G3 failed to do.

--
TonySD
A1 + RAW + NeatImage = happiness!
 
Hi Tony
I don't think you are. I think Chris' observations are very
interesting, but I note that he's used the 'soft' setting.
According to the Minolta manual in the .pdf format, p.97, this
applies a 'soft' filter, and thus blurs the image slightly - you
can see this in the images reproduced in the manual. The only
setting which applies no filter is 'normal' and I'm a little
puzzled, Chris, why you changed this?
I use "soft" setting because the normal and sharp settings both place sharpening artefacts into the image. If you take the same image at all three settings and superimpose them, you can see that they all result in the same pixels containing the same details occupying the same spaces. There is no smearing, diffusing, blurring or spreading of the image and there are no contrast "enhancements" either. With "soft" setting, the detail is portrayed at the same colour and contrast as the original item. At "normal" and "sharp", pixels that are significantly darker (and sometimes a different colour) than the original item are introduced to details in order to make them stand out more. I therefore assume that "soft" is no filtering and that "normal" represents an amount of filtering considered to be average for the class of camera or some arbitary benchmark and sharp / hard is further enhanced. Also, normal and hard settings can affect the colour of hair, darkening it a little. As I like to control my sharpening properly by use of USM, edge sharpening and various area masking techniques, I shoot "soft" to get the best starting point and least image noise.
Adam-T has suggested that the jpeg settings supress some noise at
the expense of detail, and my own tests very much support this -
see my shots in the 'RAW vs jpeg' thread, where to my eye (and
others!) there is appreciably more detail in the RAW (top) image
than in the xtrafine jpeg, which I feel is slightly 'smeared' in
the finest detail.
I have examined images of identical frames at pixel vs pixel level and can find almost no difference in detail. What is different is the way detail is portrayed. RAW is possibly closer to Fine JPEG than XFine JPEG in its presentation, but these differences at pixel level would not be visible in an A3 print. Only standard JPEG would produce visible artefacts on an A3 print.

The most faithful detail to the original seems to be produced by TIFF, but you pay a price in high file sizes, slightly more vibrant than natural colours, high contrast and reduced shooting performance while the buffer clears. Image noise in TIFF is very much improved over all other file formats. If you want a crisp, vibrant and low noise image, TIFF is the way to go.
I shoot RAW almost exclusively now. Noise is somewhat increased,
as one would expect from Adam-T's suggestion, but the wonderful
NeatImage really does take care of that with minimal loss of
detail. AAMOI I use +2 on the saturation setting, and +1 (warmer)
on the colour setting in the excellent Dimage Viewer. YMMV
I use Neat Image sometimes, but have found that with RAW files (and all the others as well), it can produce a loss of fine texture in seas and grass and can also introduce very faint patterns into the sky if cloud is present, so I tend to use it to make a masking layer and live with the noise in textured areas where it does not show. Also, if you shoot soft and dont have to run the file through NI, you end up with as least as much and possibly more detail than if you shoot normal then NI it (dependent on subject matter of course)

Having been fortunate enough to work with microscopes and electron microscopes in my job for some years, I have a good understanding of how microscopic details will affect the image when viewed at normal size.

The joy of the A1 is that we get to choose all of this for ourselves. If you take 3 sharpness settings, 10 contrast settings, 10 saturation settings and 5 file formats, you can leave home with 1500 different rolls of colour film loaded into one camera and pick the best one to suit each scene.

What I am starting to wonder as I do these tests is: is it noise that we see at ISO100? TIFF particularly has very clean images and the level of noise perceived does vary in frequency and intensity with recording formats. What we may be seeing as noise may well be a product of the internal image processing. Certainly, sharpness control puts in noise in selected places to enhance contrast.
As an aside we have acquired a resident peacock in our grounds, and
on a gloomy afternoon the AS on the A1 enabled me to get some
excellent shots which my Canon G3 failed to do.
Any photos of the peacock to post to cheer us up in the gloomy January weather Tony?

Chris

Getting rather attached to my A1.
 
Hi Chris,

Does your replacement A1 have the same magenta banding problem?
Also, could you let us know what the first 4 digits of the serial
number is? I've been holding off getting another A1 until I get
more confidence in Minolta's QC. Just wondering at what point I
should try my luck again. Thanks. -Norm
Hi Norm

The replacement A1 has just a tiny hint of cast in very dark shots at ISO 800, but you would have to be looking for it. It is now at a level where it is fixable in NI as well. At ISO 400 the problem is gone completely. So where my first camera (36xxx) had an intrusive problem, this one (4230xxx) has the effect at less than 10% of the first and is easily liveable.

ISO800 is also useable although noisy at higher shutter speeds. If you want to do a small magazine action photo at 1/5000 sec, it will print up just fine after a session on NI, but dont expect to do an A3 from it and not see the grain.

I have to say that even if the problem had not been solved, I would still have kept the A1 as I truly cannot think of any other digicam that could do the A1's job half as well at any price.

Chris
 
I thought that the RAW format of images was what it says on the tin
  • a raw dump of the sensor data. Surely the differences detailed so
wonderfully above tell more about the processing software used
(whether in camera or elsewhere) than anything else. Surely there
can be no more detail available than what is in the RAW image.

Or am I misunderstanding something......?

Cheers,

Jon
I don't think you are. I think Chris' observations are very
interesting, but I note that he's used the 'soft' setting.
According to the Minolta manual in the .pdf format, p.97, this
applies a 'soft' filter, and thus blurs the image slightly - you
can see this in the images reproduced in the manual. The only
setting which applies no filter is 'normal' and I'm a little
puzzled, Chris, why you changed this?

Adam-T has suggested that the jpeg settings supress some noise at
the expense of detail, and my own tests very much support this -
see my shots in the 'RAW vs jpeg' thread, where to my eye (and
others!) there is appreciably more detail in the RAW (top) image
than in the xtrafine jpeg, which I feel is slightly 'smeared' in
the finest detail.

I shoot RAW almost exclusively now. Noise is somewhat increased,
as one would expect from Adam-T's suggestion, but the wonderful
NeatImage really does take care of that with minimal loss of
detail. AAMOI I use +2 on the saturation setting, and +1 (warmer)
on the colour setting in the excellent Dimage Viewer. YMMV

As an aside we have acquired a resident peacock in our grounds, and
on a gloomy afternoon the AS on the A1 enabled me to get some
excellent shots which my Canon G3 failed to do.

--
TonySD
A1 + RAW + NeatImage = happiness!
Hi Norm,

IMO the RAW + NI shots definitely have a perceptible edge on on xtrafine jpegs. Detail which is a little smeared in jpeg, becomes clearer in RAW even after NI, which is not the easiest program to get to grips with, but does deliver the goods. Not only that but the shot-to-shot times in RAW seem faster at

first image is RAW



Second is xtra fine jpeg



Both are 100% crops. I'll try to put up the RAW image post NI shortly, as it stands both are straight out of the camera.

I nearly gave up on the A1, but now I use it most of the time, even though it's images are still not quite as smooth as the G3.
--
TonySD
 
I don't think you are. I think Chris' observations are very
interesting, but I note that he's used the 'soft' setting.
According to the Minolta manual in the .pdf format, p.97, this
applies a 'soft' filter, and thus blurs the image slightly - you
can see this in the images reproduced in the manual. The only
setting which applies no filter is 'normal' and I'm a little
puzzled, Chris, why you changed this?
I use "soft" setting because the normal and sharp settings both
place sharpening artefacts into the image. If you take the same
image at all three settings and superimpose them, you can see that
they all result in the same pixels containing the same details
occupying the same spaces. There is no smearing, diffusing,
blurring or spreading of the image and there are no contrast
"enhancements" either. With "soft" setting, the detail is portrayed
at the same colour and contrast as the original item. At "normal"
and "sharp", pixels that are significantly darker (and sometimes a
different colour) than the original item are introduced to details
in order to make them stand out more. I therefore assume that
"soft" is no filtering and that "normal" represents an amount of
filtering considered to be average for the class of camera or some
arbitary benchmark and sharp / hard is further enhanced. Also,
normal and hard settings can affect the colour of hair, darkening
it a little. As I like to control my sharpening properly by use of
USM, edge sharpening and various area masking techniques, I shoot
"soft" to get the best starting point and least image noise.
Adam-T has suggested that the jpeg settings supress some noise at
the expense of detail, and my own tests very much support this -
see my shots in the 'RAW vs jpeg' thread, where to my eye (and
others!) there is appreciably more detail in the RAW (top) image
than in the xtrafine jpeg, which I feel is slightly 'smeared' in
the finest detail.
I have examined images of identical frames at pixel vs pixel level
and can find almost no difference in detail. What is different is
the way detail is portrayed. RAW is possibly closer to Fine JPEG
than XFine JPEG in its presentation, but these differences at pixel
level would not be visible in an A3 print. Only standard JPEG would
produce visible artefacts on an A3 print.
The most faithful detail to the original seems to be produced by
TIFF, but you pay a price in high file sizes, slightly more vibrant
than natural colours, high contrast and reduced shooting
performance while the buffer clears. Image noise in TIFF is very
much improved over all other file formats. If you want a crisp,
vibrant and low noise image, TIFF is the way to go.
I shoot RAW almost exclusively now. Noise is somewhat increased,
as one would expect from Adam-T's suggestion, but the wonderful
NeatImage really does take care of that with minimal loss of
detail. AAMOI I use +2 on the saturation setting, and +1 (warmer)
on the colour setting in the excellent Dimage Viewer. YMMV
I use Neat Image sometimes, but have found that with RAW files (and
all the others as well), it can produce a loss of fine texture in
seas and grass and can also introduce very faint patterns into the
sky if cloud is present, so I tend to use it to make a masking
layer and live with the noise in textured areas where it does not
show. Also, if you shoot soft and dont have to run the file through
NI, you end up with as least as much and possibly more detail than
if you shoot normal then NI it (dependent on subject matter of
course)

Having been fortunate enough to work with microscopes and electron
microscopes in my job for some years, I have a good understanding
of how microscopic details will affect the image when viewed at
normal size.

The joy of the A1 is that we get to choose all of this for
ourselves. If you take 3 sharpness settings, 10 contrast settings,
10 saturation settings and 5 file formats, you can leave home with
1500 different rolls of colour film loaded into one camera and pick
the best one to suit each scene.

What I am starting to wonder as I do these tests is: is it noise
that we see at ISO100? TIFF particularly has very clean images and
the level of noise perceived does vary in frequency and intensity
with recording formats. What we may be seeing as noise may well be
a product of the internal image processing. Certainly, sharpness
control puts in noise in selected places to enhance contrast.
As an aside we have acquired a resident peacock in our grounds, and
on a gloomy afternoon the AS on the A1 enabled me to get some
excellent shots which my Canon G3 failed to do.
Any photos of the peacock to post to cheer us up in the gloomy
January weather Tony?

Chris

Getting rather attached to my A1.
How about this one then, Chris?



About the 'normal' setting - the manual does clearly state that this is the only one with no filtering, however I guess a bit of practice is worth a lot of theory, so I'll try your technique!

Cheers
--
TonySD - also getting to rather like his A1
 
What this seems to show is that the DiMAGE Viewer's conversion of RAW files to TIFF is nothing at all like the camera's conversion of RAW data to TIFF. Very surprising. Those of you who like guessing games, which is which? One column in each image is:
  • RAW converted to TIFF with the DiMAGE Viewer
  • TIFF from the camera
  • XFINE JPEG from the camera
  • FINE JPEG from the camera
(The bottom cube is a bit out of focus due to distance from the fous point.)

Very compressed version - Normal sharpness:



Less compressed: http://home.att.net/~dimagea1/samples/a1_quality_80.jpg
Full Size XFINE: http://home.att.net/~dimagea1/samples/PICT0335.JPG

Very compressed version - Soft sharpness:



Less compressed: http://home.att.net/~dimagea1/samples/a1_quality_soft_80.jpg
Full Size XFINE: http://home.att.net/~dimagea1/samples/PICT0340.JPG
 
Very compressed version - Normal sharpness:
XFINE - TIFF - RAW - FINE
Very compressed version - Soft sharpness:
TIFF - XFINE - FINE - RAW
Hi jscher

Compression removed any significant differences when the images were posted so it was difficult to tell, although I suspected the TIFF files were as they were.

What is odd is that I now have had 2 A1s. On the first, the differences between formats was less pronounced than on the second. On the first, it was almost impossible to tell the difference between std jpeg and RAW. On the one I have now, each format has a distinct if only subtle signature. I think that I will use different formats for different shots to maximise the effectiveness of the camera.

For now, that will be RAW where I know that I an going to have trouble with the range (although with the A1 contrast adjustment, it is surprising how often that shots I had to use + - 2 stops bracketing on my S414 can be done as a single shot), or where a fair bit of post processing will be required / advantageous. TIFF where lots of fine detail and a crisp appearence will add to the shot significantly. XFINE JPEG for shots where I know the exposure, range and detail will do what I want and dont envisage post processing, FINE JPEG for same circumstances trying to save room on CF cards.

The only format that is really compromised to the extent that it would not go to A3 print is std JPEG, but even this will do for shots that will only be viewed on screen or published to web, newsprint, small magazine column shot.

I am going out to shoot today and will do some print trials on the results to see how the differences in sharpness settings and file formats compare when A3 prints are made. I have done this befroe with my older camera and a test scene, but today will be real world photos. Will post findings later.

Chris
 
Very compressed version - Normal sharpness:
XFINE - TIFF - RAW - FINE
Very compressed version - Soft sharpness:
TIFF - XFINE - FINE - RAW
Hi jscher

Compression removed any significant differences when the images
were posted so it was difficult to tell, although I suspected the
TIFF files were as they were.
I guess I didn't see many significant differences, except that TIFF and XFINE were noticeably sharper and TIFF more constrasty. If it's true that different cameras process the same data differently, we ought to give up on all comparisons!
 

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