Long, thoughtful, provocative 828 advice

For DOF this is true, but for exposure, f/2 is f/2 no matter what camera you use.
I think Evil may be right about the F2 thing, the aperture values
shown on the camera are not real values,you only have to look at
the depth of field shown by the pics to see that the lowest value
is more in line with F5.6 or F8.
The depth of field at F2 is very shallow,I haven't seen the chart
,but it would be less than two feet at most of the zoom settings.
--
'Don't blame your camera, it's only doing what you make it do.'
 
I understand that a lot of folks are disappointed by the PF and by
the fact that 2/3" cameras have more noise than APS cameras. But
it's ridiculous for you to claim that the 828 cannot take good
pictures.
If you think PF and noise are OK for "good" pictures, then I guess nobody is gonna argue with you.

Kai
 
But please go back to the Canon forum unless you can help Sony
users get better pictures with their Sony cameras.

Roger

PS: The post you were responding to did not support your position.
It was a well thought out reason why one person thought he would be
better off with a DSLR with interchangeable lenses than the Sony
828.
--
Andrew Mullan
F828 CA Samples
http://www.veganjapan.org/ca.htm
 
I understand that a lot of folks are disappointed by the PF and by
the fact that 2/3" cameras have more noise than APS cameras. But
it's ridiculous for you to claim that the 828 cannot take good
pictures.
If you think PF and noise are OK for "good" pictures, then I guess
nobody is gonna argue with you.

Kai
Well Kai I get PF on a small minority of my pictures, and I find it easy to correct it.

As for noise, I take steps to minimize it and it's not a problem with my prints, even at 12x16 inches (as big as they come out of my printer).

Come visit my gallery sometime and I'll be glad to show you some of them.

Does this mean the PF is not a problem? No, it is certainly a problem and I wouldn't recommend this camera to someone unwilling or unable to deal with it when it crops up.

Bottom line is, I make better large prints with this camera than I can with any other live-LCD camera, and comparable to slightly better than 6MP dSLRs. Does the camera have flaws? You bet you. Do all the other cameras? Certainly they do.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/featured_art&page=1
 
But please go back to the Canon forum unless you can help Sony
users get better pictures with their Sony cameras.

Roger

PS: The post you were responding to did not support your position.
It was a well thought out reason why one person thought he would be
better off with a DSLR with interchangeable lenses than the Sony
828.
I believe Ted did not approve of the original post and was speaking
ironically, Roger.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
and in the case of the legendary 828... ca & pf ... in an above average amounts, aspparently.
If his post was "out off the blue" I would agree with you, but it's
not. Many users are having real problems, many 828's are being
returned. Users are getting tired of running noise-reduction
software, they are getting tired of being unable to shoot at f/2,
and of dealing with work-arounds. People without problems, people
with problems. Problems..
The way people are talking, you would think that the camera can't
even open the shutter wide enough to take a picture. Name me a
camera that has does not have some issue the user must deal with in
some way by either ignoring or working around it?

Look at all the people who are wanting to get a lomo? Do you think
they cannot possibly produce photographs that satisfy because it is
not the highest quality camera around?
The 828 is a finnicky little devil.
Name me a camera that is not finicky. The very nature of
photography is finicky.
But, about this post. Todd's comments were not presented in a nasty
or divisive way. Todd claims to have been here for a while, has
shot Sony for a long time, and was very brand loyal, expecting
quality to back up the Sony name.
Nasty is probably subjective:
"Some of you guys may get the 828 and never regret it, and you may
enjoy staying up late at night removing purple fringing from all
your pictures."
IMO this is not a troll post, and Todd deserves to be treated with
dignity and respect. I don't see what he did to deserve a lashing.
Lashing?!?! You read too much into my comments. He is clearly
projecting here. This is all I am talking about.
I share Todds' feelings exactly. I have tons of expensive sony
stuff in my house including a large screen tv, cd, dvd, alarm
clock, 707 and a nice 21" sony multiscan monitor. Sony always meant
quality. Not any more.
You are going to run out of companies to buy from soon with this
kind of attitude.
I also waited until 828 samples started appearing. I also saw what
was being posted from the 300d. I also ended up with the 300d, and
like Todd, I have no regrets. I really wantd the 828, but when I
started seeing samples, then saw the sony "ISO 64" noise
work-around, and the continual delays getting the camera to market,
I bailed, just like Todd.
No problem with that. You have to do what you have to do. What I
take issue with is coming back here and trying to foment discontent
in others. You can take that elsewhere as far as I am concerned.
He is more than entitled to his opinion. STF is the appropriate
forum for his comments, and as a long-time user he should not be
condemned for speaking against the 828.
He is certainly free to post his thoughts, but he in not free from
being criticized for those comments.
Besides, someone on the fence, unsure what to do, may find Todds'
comments (clearly backed by experience) to be useful. Of course,
his comments may turn away potential 828 owners, but unless you
have stock in Sony, or a brand-loyal fanatic, this should not be a
problem.
hehehe clever. But fomenting discontent is a lot different than
merely stating your experiences.
The important thing is that we are all happy with what we end up with.
Yes, and let's keep it at that shall we.

--
'Don't blame your camera, it's only doing what you make it do.'
--
steven mulder
 
i forgot this part. don't blame your camera, it's only doing what you tell it... plus above average ca & pf.
If his post was "out off the blue" I would agree with you, but it's
not. Many users are having real problems, many 828's are being
returned. Users are getting tired of running noise-reduction
software, they are getting tired of being unable to shoot at f/2,
and of dealing with work-arounds. People without problems, people
with problems. Problems..
The way people are talking, you would think that the camera can't
even open the shutter wide enough to take a picture. Name me a
camera that has does not have some issue the user must deal with in
some way by either ignoring or working around it?

Look at all the people who are wanting to get a lomo? Do you think
they cannot possibly produce photographs that satisfy because it is
not the highest quality camera around?
The 828 is a finnicky little devil.
Name me a camera that is not finicky. The very nature of
photography is finicky.
But, about this post. Todd's comments were not presented in a nasty
or divisive way. Todd claims to have been here for a while, has
shot Sony for a long time, and was very brand loyal, expecting
quality to back up the Sony name.
Nasty is probably subjective:
"Some of you guys may get the 828 and never regret it, and you may
enjoy staying up late at night removing purple fringing from all
your pictures."
IMO this is not a troll post, and Todd deserves to be treated with
dignity and respect. I don't see what he did to deserve a lashing.
Lashing?!?! You read too much into my comments. He is clearly
projecting here. This is all I am talking about.
I share Todds' feelings exactly. I have tons of expensive sony
stuff in my house including a large screen tv, cd, dvd, alarm
clock, 707 and a nice 21" sony multiscan monitor. Sony always meant
quality. Not any more.
You are going to run out of companies to buy from soon with this
kind of attitude.
I also waited until 828 samples started appearing. I also saw what
was being posted from the 300d. I also ended up with the 300d, and
like Todd, I have no regrets. I really wantd the 828, but when I
started seeing samples, then saw the sony "ISO 64" noise
work-around, and the continual delays getting the camera to market,
I bailed, just like Todd.
No problem with that. You have to do what you have to do. What I
take issue with is coming back here and trying to foment discontent
in others. You can take that elsewhere as far as I am concerned.
He is more than entitled to his opinion. STF is the appropriate
forum for his comments, and as a long-time user he should not be
condemned for speaking against the 828.
He is certainly free to post his thoughts, but he in not free from
being criticized for those comments.
Besides, someone on the fence, unsure what to do, may find Todds'
comments (clearly backed by experience) to be useful. Of course,
his comments may turn away potential 828 owners, but unless you
have stock in Sony, or a brand-loyal fanatic, this should not be a
problem.
hehehe clever. But fomenting discontent is a lot different than
merely stating your experiences.
The important thing is that we are all happy with what we end up with.
Yes, and let's keep it at that shall we.

--
'Don't blame your camera, it's only doing what you make it do.'
--
steven mulder
--
steven mulder
 
Well Kai I get PF on a small minority of my pictures, and I find it
easy to correct it.
Yes but some of us (and me) get CA on most of our pictures and find it very hard to completely remove it (ghost image in PS).

Auto and P mode will usually use the widest F stop and even if I do use aperture mode even at F4-F5 I will still often get bad CA.

--
Andrew Mullan
F828 CA Samples
http://www.veganjapan.org/ca.htm
 
I believe that was the point that Evil was trying to make.
I think Evil may be right about the F2 thing, the aperture values
shown on the camera are not real values,you only have to look at
the depth of field shown by the pics to see that the lowest value
is more in line with F5.6 or F8.
The depth of field at F2 is very shallow,I haven't seen the chart
,but it would be less than two feet at most of the zoom settings.
--
'Don't blame your camera, it's only doing what you make it do.'
 
nope, and how many 828's have you had so far. and will you get it fixed when sony either fixes it or just replaces it with something that works like a 1000.00 camera should. or just admit you and many others bought a subpar camera that, thanks to your skill are able to get good shots with. and my s* does stink but not of Sony.
I'm sure your camera is perfect and your s* doesn't stink either.

--
my favorite work:
http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/featured_art&page=1
--
steven mulder
 
Don't worry. My last Sony is also a S70. Many Sony girlfriends before this one, starting from the first Mavica. Mavica is a nice name for a girlfriend!

Don't worry, a new Sony is on the way, not that I have any kind of inside info about Sony. You will own a new Sony camera before you know it.
 
the 828 has f/2?

i thought it only had f/8 ;)

hoo boy this is a sore subject, because i have found that my better images have come from the lens being closed down as much as the scene & light will allow.
For DOF this is true, but for exposure, f/2 is f/2 no matter what
camera you use.
 
Matt,

I visited your gallery before I post last message. It is fantastic. Your work speaks out your talent. No doubt about it.

However, we are talking about technical aspects of equipment, we have to put personal talents aside, because those vary from people to people. Some people take great shots with Nikon 995, yet I still see so-so pictures out of 1DS.

I own a Sony 707 and it gave me a great fun. I defended it when people trashed it on DREBEL forum. However, I also have to admit that the noise from my 707 is much higher than that from my DRebel.

4x6 prints are OK, but I guess if 4x6 is all we need, a 2mp camera is quite adequate. The reason people go to 828 is for large prints. What if you have a killer photo that only happens in years, you want to put it on the wall? You want a 12x18 print at least.

I don't have a 828, but I can see noise from 707 on 8.5x11 prints. It didn't bother me before, but it bothers me quite a bit after I have the Drebel. Once I see clean images, I don't want to go back.

The other reason you have mentioned is crop up. 200mm focal length sometimes just doesn't quite get you there. The objects are just too small on the images.

Sure, there are many nice things about 707 and 828, but I guess you know them all.

Best Regards,

Kai
I understand that a lot of folks are disappointed by the PF and by
the fact that 2/3" cameras have more noise than APS cameras. But
it's ridiculous for you to claim that the 828 cannot take good
pictures.
If you think PF and noise are OK for "good" pictures, then I guess
nobody is gonna argue with you.

Kai
Well Kai I get PF on a small minority of my pictures, and I find it
easy to correct it.

As for noise, I take steps to minimize it and it's not a problem
with my prints, even at 12x16 inches (as big as they come out of my
printer).

Come visit my gallery sometime and I'll be glad to show you some of
them.

Does this mean the PF is not a problem? No, it is certainly a
problem and I wouldn't recommend this camera to someone unwilling
or unable to deal with it when it crops up.

Bottom line is, I make better large prints with this camera than I
can with any other live-LCD camera, and comparable to slightly
better than 6MP dSLRs. Does the camera have flaws? You bet you.
Do all the other cameras? Certainly they do.

--
my favorite work:
http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/featured_art&page=1
 
Thanks for clearing up all the misconceptions throughout the forums on who isn't a photographer with your as usual brilliant analysis and photographic insight! :)))))
If your main priority in photography is to own the latest all in
one and as light as possible camera then you are not a
photographer,your just one of the crowd of owners looking for
convenience.
 
nic, are you sure you don't want to take this back?
If your main priority in photography is to own the latest all in
one and as light as possible camera then you are not a
photographer,your just one of the crowd of owners looking for
convenience.
all you have to do is look here. are you saying that we are not photographers?

http://www.pbase.com/stfchallenge/root
 
Ok, listen. I'm a long time Canon user. (Don't throw anything, please!) Rebel II, Elan 7, S400, and 10D.

I just picked up an 828 last week, and it's not going back.

Yes, it DOES have above average PF and CA. Whoop. So did my 10D until I replaced my $149 quantaray plastic fantastic lenses with real Canon lenses - one of which cost more than the 828 itself.

People here who are getting all snarky over 828 vs 300D don't realize it's 6 of one, half dozen the other.

I love my 10D -- the lack of noise is fantastic; the pictures are amazing, especially when I throw on the IS lens or the 70-200 L. HOWEVER.. With the Sony I don't have to photoshop dust out of my sky pics, or futz with pec pads and a spatula to clean the sensor. The sony does DFS on long exposures, so I don't have to clone out hot pixels on long exposure night shots.. (Already sent my 10D to get mapped once.. Sidenote.. CANON. AGAIN. LET US MAP PIXELS OURSELVES OR.. OR.. Whatever. Complaining doesn't work with Canon either.) And let's not forget the 6 month long 10D "focus problem" holy war that burned up the Canon forum.

I dont think people are frustrated with the 828 because it is, in and of itself, a bad camera. I think they are frustrated because it COULD be a BETTER camera.

True, and I wish my 10D had pixel mapping and the ultrasonic sensor dust cover found on the E-1. Does that mean I'm going to go return my 10D and 828 for an E-1 and an E20? No, because then I have to worry about 4:3 sensors, moire artifacts, slow AF, no histogram, and only a few expensive lenses.

Or, I could go Nikon, and not be able to update firmware myself and the other problems inherent in DSLRs.

The point is, different tools are good for different people for different applications.

So, the solution? If you can afford it, go buy an 828, a 10D, an E-1, an E-20, and a Minolta A1, and carry them all in one bag.

No, really.. When they make a "one size fits all" camera, DPReview wil be no more.
 

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