RGB vs sRGB I know tons of people must have this answer!

gemini5223 · Jan 10, 2004

Well, I am feeling pretty dumb right now. I have gone all digital and got a 10D in July and thought I knew the workings.

Well, I got Scott Kelby's book on PS CS and he says one of the first things to do in PS is to get rid of the srgb setting and put it on RGB... that the srgb setting isn't even a good setting for web use anymore, it cuts way down on colors.......

Here in lies my question.... my book on my 10D sounds like it is saying the opposite... that I SHOULD have the camera set on srgb.

Any help out there?
Thanks ahead of time...
Mary

harp2 · Jan 10, 2004

Most digital cameras capture in sRGB and most printers at this time work in sRGB both in pro labs and your desk top. So what would be the advantage of working in RGB? sRGB matches most of the printers and if your camera captures is sRGB you have a matched color profile. You can't make more colors from a file than are in that file to start with, just by working with another color profile such as RGB.

RBG has a smaller color pallet than sRGB has so that is another reason to stay in sRGB.

Harp

gemini5223 said:
Well, I am feeling pretty dumb right now. I have gone all digital
and got a 10D in July and thought I knew the workings.

Well, I got Scott Kelby's book on PS CS and he says one of the
first things to do in PS is to get rid of the srgb setting and put
it on RGB... that the srgb setting isn't even a good setting for
web use anymore, it cuts way down on colors.......

Here in lies my question.... my book on my 10D sounds like it is
saying the opposite... that I SHOULD have the camera set on srgb.

Any help out there?
Thanks ahead of time...
Mary

harp2 · Jan 10, 2004

The issue of color has been addressed by the establishment of a standard monitor color space for the World Wide Web and the Windows operating system. This is known as sRGB. Traditionally, operating systems have supported the display of colors on a monitor by using RGB. However, as RGB varies between devices, color was not reliably reproduced across different monitors.

Hewlett-Packard, Microsoft and others have developed the sRGB standard monitor color space that is optimized to meet the needs of most users. Very simply, sRGB is calibrated RGB that is optimized for the vast majority of computer monitors, operating systems and browsers. sRGB specifications use a monitor with a gamma of 2.2 and 6,500 degree Kelvin white point. sRGB will allow color to be reproduced and displayed in a single, unified method that provides for viewing consistency from monitor to monitor.

Further, Microsoft has made sRGB the default monitor color space for Windows 98/2000/XP.

So I should have said it is more exact and consistant rather than having a larger pallet than RBG.

Harp

harp2 said:
Harp

gemini5223 said:

Well, I am feeling pretty dumb right now. I have gone all digital
and got a 10D in July and thought I knew the workings.

Well, I got Scott Kelby's book on PS CS and he says one of the
first things to do in PS is to get rid of the srgb setting and put
it on RGB... that the srgb setting isn't even a good setting for
web use anymore, it cuts way down on colors.......

Here in lies my question.... my book on my 10D sounds like it is
saying the opposite... that I SHOULD have the camera set on srgb.

Any help out there?
Thanks ahead of time...
Mary

Click to expand...

Ken Burns · Jan 10, 2004

gemini5223 said:
Well, I am feeling pretty dumb right now. I have gone all digital
and got a 10D in July and thought I knew the workings.

Well, I got Scott Kelby's book on PS CS and he says one of the
first things to do in PS is to get rid of the srgb setting and put
it on RGB... that the srgb setting isn't even a good setting for
web use anymore, it cuts way down on colors.......

Here in lies my question.... my book on my 10D sounds like it is
saying the opposite... that I SHOULD have the camera set on srgb.

Any help out there?
Thanks ahead of time...
Mary

My philosophy is that one should capture the broadest gamut possible at the camera. If a narrower gamut is adequate for certain applications, then the profile can be changed using PS or other image editing software.

However, the reverse is not possible. If the image is captured at the camera using a narrow gamut profile like sRGB, basically, you're stuck with that limitation. Any missing color values will always be lost.

Set your profile at the camera to RGB. If you need sRGB, then change the profile in a copy of the original file using PS. That's my philosophy.

Joe Wilson · Jan 10, 2004

what do you mean by rgb? I thought you had the options of srgb and argb in the camera?!?

gemini5223 said:
Well, I am feeling pretty dumb right now. I have gone all digital
and got a 10D in July and thought I knew the workings.

Well, I got Scott Kelby's book on PS CS and he says one of the
first things to do in PS is to get rid of the srgb setting and put
it on RGB... that the srgb setting isn't even a good setting for
web use anymore, it cuts way down on colors.......

Here in lies my question.... my book on my 10D sounds like it is
saying the opposite... that I SHOULD have the camera set on srgb.

Any help out there?
Thanks ahead of time...
Mary

--
http://www.joesimages.com

Scott Squires · Jan 10, 2004

Best thing to do is check the Photoshop help documentation files that explain color workflow.

The other good source for info is C1 documentation (just download the demo to get these)

In a nutshell it's best to capture and edit in Adobe RGB format. That provides a wider range of colors that can be converted as needed to different output types. (web, desktop prints, etc)

Scott

gemini5223 · Jan 10, 2004

Well, no... my camera gives the option of sRGB as well as RGB. I realize I would want both settings the same.

I thought I had it right untill Scott Kelby, Photoshop guru said that we should change the profile to Photoshop RGB 1998. This is where my confusion comes in.

harp2 said:
Harp

gemini5223 said:

Well, I am feeling pretty dumb right now. I have gone all digital
and got a 10D in July and thought I knew the workings.

Well, I got Scott Kelby's book on PS CS and he says one of the
first things to do in PS is to get rid of the srgb setting and put
it on RGB... that the srgb setting isn't even a good setting for
web use anymore, it cuts way down on colors.......

Here in lies my question.... my book on my 10D sounds like it is
saying the opposite... that I SHOULD have the camera set on srgb.

Any help out there?
Thanks ahead of time...
Mary

Click to expand...

gemini5223 · Jan 10, 2004

Okay, so that's 2 of you that says RGB is best (as does Scott Kelby) and one says sRGB is the most colors.
Thanks for the input.

Scott Squires said:
Best thing to do is check the Photoshop help documentation files
that explain color workflow.

The other good source for info is C1 documentation (just download
the demo to get these)

In a nutshell it's best to capture and edit in Adobe RGB format.
That provides a wider range of colors that can be converted as
needed to different output types. (web, desktop prints, etc)

Scott

gemini5223 · Jan 10, 2004

Okay... but if my interest is in printing and not web, which is better?
Thank you for all your info.....

gemini5223 said:
harp2 said:

Harp

gemini5223 said:

Well, I am feeling pretty dumb right now. I have gone all digital
and got a 10D in July and thought I knew the workings.

Well, I got Scott Kelby's book on PS CS and he says one of the
first things to do in PS is to get rid of the srgb setting and put
it on RGB... that the srgb setting isn't even a good setting for
web use anymore, it cuts way down on colors.......

Here in lies my question.... my book on my 10D sounds like it is
saying the opposite... that I SHOULD have the camera set on srgb.

Any help out there?
Thanks ahead of time...
Mary

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

NikonBob · Jan 11, 2004

Scott, then why do many printer sources (i.e. Shutterfly) require sRGB for printing? Do you use RGB, then convert to sRGB before printing?

-rich

Scott Squires said:
Best thing to do is check the Photoshop help documentation files
that explain color workflow.

The other good source for info is C1 documentation (just download
the demo to get these)

In a nutshell it's best to capture and edit in Adobe RGB format.
That provides a wider range of colors that can be converted as
needed to different output types. (web, desktop prints, etc)

Scott

Tom March · Jan 11, 2004

Scott Squires said:
Best thing to do is check the Photoshop help documentation files
that explain color workflow.

I agree, Scott. I got an Epson 2200 and struggled for a while trying to understand color management. I got a spyder and also a profile from Cathy which had good documentation as to what settings to use. I got good prints, but once in a while as I switched between papers, paper sizes, matt and photo black, things would go wrong and I would go nuts trying to get it fixed. When I upgraded to Photoshop CS, the help files came up upon loading. It showed a topic on color management which I got into and read. The explaination is very clear and tells why you want the different settings, what they are for, and now I not only get consistant results, I even have a reasonable understanding of what I am doing. Going into the control panel to the printers allowed me to make some of these settings the default, saving having to mess with some settings each print.

By all means, read the help documentation. It's the most complete and least cryptic help I have seen yet. More like a tutorial.

PS: Having just gone through all this, I tried to help in another forum on RGB vs sRGB by posting quotes pasted from Adobe's help and got rebuked by a few others, being told that Adobe is only touting their own system which is just their hype. Go figure!

Tom

ResIpsaLoquitur · Jan 11, 2004

sRGB is a small gamut space. Adobe RGB is wider, a good compromise space, but there are still wider colour spaces available.

Once data is lost, it cannot be recreated. Shooting and storing in sRGB makes no sense if a wider space is available to you. You can always convert to sRGB later if you need to (for example, for web display).

Modern colour inkjet printers have a wider gamut that sRGB can provide. The next generation of Epson printers wiill have wider gamut still. Don't limit yourself to a narrow gamut colour space: use Adbobe RGB, and edit in 16 bits.

RIL

Tom March said:
Scott Squires said:

Best thing to do is check the Photoshop help documentation files
that explain color workflow.

Click to expand...

I agree, Scott. I got an Epson 2200 and struggled for a while
trying to understand color management. I got a spyder and also a
profile from Cathy which had good documentation as to what settings
to use. I got good prints, but once in a while as I switched
between papers, paper sizes, matt and photo black, things would go
wrong and I would go nuts trying to get it fixed. When I upgraded
to Photoshop CS, the help files came up upon loading. It showed a
topic on color management which I got into and read. The
explaination is very clear and tells why you want the different
settings, what they are for, and now I not only get consistant
results, I even have a reasonable understanding of what I am doing.
Going into the control panel to the printers allowed me to make
some of these settings the default, saving having to mess with some
settings each print.

By all means, read the help documentation. It's the most complete
and least cryptic help I have seen yet. More like a tutorial.

PS: Having just gone through all this, I tried to help in another
forum on RGB vs sRGB by posting quotes pasted from Adobe's help and
got rebuked by a few others, being told that Adobe is only touting
their own system which is just their hype. Go figure!

Tom

SRP · Jan 11, 2004

I would recommend shooting RAW and converting with Photoshop CS. Adobe RAW will give you the option of what color space to convert to since the RAW file will not have a color space.

I always shoot RAW and convert to RGB. If I need sRGB for the web I convert it as a later step.

John

gemini5223 said:
Well, I am feeling pretty dumb right now. I have gone all digital
and got a 10D in July and thought I knew the workings.

Well, I got Scott Kelby's book on PS CS and he says one of the
first things to do in PS is to get rid of the srgb setting and put
it on RGB... that the srgb setting isn't even a good setting for
web use anymore, it cuts way down on colors.......

Here in lies my question.... my book on my 10D sounds like it is
saying the opposite... that I SHOULD have the camera set on srgb.

Any help out there?
Thanks ahead of time...
Mary

Scott Squires · Jan 11, 2004

RichK said:
Scott, then why do many printer sources (i.e. Shutterfly) require
sRGB for printing? Do you use RGB, then convert to sRGB before
printing?

-rich

Yes. Once you know what your specific target is then you can convert to that colorspace and size. RGB gives a larger colorspace that you can convert to sRGB or other spaces as need be. You may have need to go to video at some point or to a different printing process. Have a wider space to begin with allows you more options.

Scott

NikonBob · Jan 11, 2004

Scott, So I guess I'm wondering why I would start in RGB, then convert since I need sRGB for printing? Don't you loose something in the conversation? I thought it would be easier just to start in sRGB??

If the printer can't interpret any more then sRGB, why would RGB offer any advantages, other than web viewing, which is not my primary target.

-rich

Scott Squires said:
RichK said:

Scott, then why do many printer sources (i.e. Shutterfly) require
sRGB for printing? Do you use RGB, then convert to sRGB before
printing?

-rich

Click to expand...

Yes. Once you know what your specific target is then you can
convert to that colorspace and size. RGB gives a larger colorspace
that you can convert to sRGB or other spaces as need be. You may
have need to go to video at some point or to a different printing
process. Have a wider space to begin with allows you more options.

Scott

Tom March · Jan 11, 2004

ResIpsaLoquitur said:
Modern colour inkjet printers have a wider gamut that sRGB can
provide. The next generation of Epson printers wiill have wider
gamut still. Don't limit yourself to a narrow gamut colour space:
use Adbobe RGB, and edit in 16 bits.

Yes, you're right, and I do. But, some folks just don't want to believe that, so to avoid arguments, I decided not to buck them. I've got more to do than try to help someone and get embroiled in an argument. Even posting quotes from Adobe doesn't help.

Tom

R Stacy · Jan 11, 2004

This is an interesting topic for many, certainly myself. I thought I learned early on that Adobe RGB was the (larger=better) color space to use so I shot a wedding last April in RGB. When cleaned up or in many cases just reviewed, auto-corrected and saved (not changing color profile) in PS, I could not get prints looking right at all. Now I may be alone in this, but matching color space profiles to your monitor, camera and then to the printer(s) and/or lab(s) you intend on using is asking a bit much to keep up with. I had to convert everything to sRGB to get lab results that were acceptable. It was real pain to have to go back through and convert every image (over 100) to sRGB.

This is an area that could / should be simplified (executable buttons) in my opinion, especially when your lab tech looks dumbfounded when you ask and doesn't know how to match your color space.

Frustrating.

--
My first digicam was stolen off my Harley

Joe Wilson · Jan 11, 2004

Why should you limit yourself to a color space that is so small when you do print on a device that can take advantage? The Canon S9000 can. See the graph below.

R Stacy said:
This is an interesting topic for many, certainly myself. I thought
I learned early on that Adobe RGB was the (larger=better) color
space to use so I shot a wedding last April in RGB. When cleaned
up or in many cases just reviewed, auto-corrected and saved (not
changing color profile) in PS, I could not get prints looking right
at all. Now I may be alone in this, but matching color space
profiles to your monitor, camera and then to the printer(s) and/or
lab(s) you intend on using is asking a bit much to keep up with. I
had to convert everything to sRGB to get lab results that were
acceptable. It was real pain to have to go back through and
convert every image (over 100) to sRGB.

This is an area that could / should be simplified (executable
buttons) in my opinion, especially when your lab tech looks
dumbfounded when you ask and doesn't know how to match your color
space.

Frustrating.

--
My first digicam was stolen off my Harley

--
http://www.joesimages.com

harp2 · Jan 11, 2004

Most photo labs and printers print in sRGB not Adobe RBG 1998.

If you have a file in Adobe RBG 1998 and you take it to a Pro photo lag that prints in sRGB you will end up with a color and profile mismatch and you will get bad color and contrast in your prints.

With a desk top printer at home the printer software convert your files to sRGB so your printer will print them. This happens in the background and you will never know the conversion is taking place when the data is sent to your printer.

You are still better off to give your printer files it likes to eat with out all the extra cooking it likes them that way.

Harp

gemini5223 said:
gemini5223 said:

harp2 said:

Harp

gemini5223 said:

Well, I am feeling pretty dumb right now. I have gone all digital
and got a 10D in July and thought I knew the workings.

Well, I got Scott Kelby's book on PS CS and he says one of the
first things to do in PS is to get rid of the srgb setting and put
it on RGB... that the srgb setting isn't even a good setting for
web use anymore, it cuts way down on colors.......

Here in lies my question.... my book on my 10D sounds like it is
saying the opposite... that I SHOULD have the camera set on srgb.

Any help out there?
Thanks ahead of time...
Mary

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

harp2 · Jan 11, 2004

Yes but the graph you show clearly shows the Canon S9000 in the -130 range is not even covered sRGB still has a wider range of color space.

Harp

Joe Wilson said:
R Stacy said:

This is an interesting topic for many, certainly myself. I thought
I learned early on that Adobe RGB was the (larger=better) color
space to use so I shot a wedding last April in RGB. When cleaned
up or in many cases just reviewed, auto-corrected and saved (not
changing color profile) in PS, I could not get prints looking right
at all. Now I may be alone in this, but matching color space
profiles to your monitor, camera and then to the printer(s) and/or
lab(s) you intend on using is asking a bit much to keep up with. I
had to convert everything to sRGB to get lab results that were
acceptable. It was real pain to have to go back through and
convert every image (over 100) to sRGB.

This is an area that could / should be simplified (executable
buttons) in my opinion, especially when your lab tech looks
dumbfounded when you ask and doesn't know how to match your color
space.

Frustrating.

--
My first digicam was stolen off my Harley

Click to expand...

--
http://www.joesimages.com

RGB vs sRGB I know tons of people must have this answer!

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