just "barely" recommended

Jogger

I have been brand-loyal to sony for years. My large screen TV, my DVD, my 500 watt home theatre amplifier are all Sony. My alarm clock is a sony. i own a 707 that I truly love.

I was on the fence for a while trying to decide between the 300d and 828. I really wanted the 828 to be a winner.

Sadly, of all the sony products I personally own, and all the professional sony broadcast and profssional AV equipment I have used over the years, I can truthfully say that this is the most problematic device sony has ever released to production (IMO).

Sony took what could have been a stellar 5mp camera, added a 8mp sensor, and ended up with a camera that is just barely "recommended" All because a bunch of low-lifes sitting around a beautiful, polished table decided that this was the best way to sell more cameras.

Over the years the structure of large corporations have changed. The "bean counters" are at the controls now, along with the marketing bottom feeders.

It used to be that on a corporate level, marketing and sales would answer to mgt, along with R&D, production and service. Not any more. Now, marketing and sales still answers to managment, but now R&D, production, customer service and the service dept frequently answer to Marketing.

Bad. Very bad. People driven by the desire to do quality work now answer to people driven by comission. Very bad

Ford
GM
Marantz
Harmon-Kardon
Blaupunkt
GE
JBL
Crown
Altec-Lansing

The list goes on. All these companies used to make a high quality product. They have since sold out. They will claim they did this to survive in todays marketplace. Sony did not engage in these practices, until now.

PLease excuse me for being philosophical, evidently the consumer would rather have "cheap" than "quality", and manufacturers no longer rely on the quality of their product to maintain their market-share. It would seem it is more cost effective for them to resort to "aggressive marketing"

you know, the 8mp thing.., and to develop creative work-arounds to design flaws (ISO 64 to remedy a noisy ISO 100) as opposed to finding a quality solution.

Sony knew they had a problem long before the first 828 was ever glued and taped together by their R&D dept. That didn't stop them, they forged ahead anyway. .

Lets not forget either that sony intended on selling this little gem for 1200 bucks. They dropped that in a hurry, didn't they.

NOt that my 300d, my PC. my cell phone, my laptop are made any better, but they do perform as advertised. None have any real problems, but they are all made cheap..

So yes, this upsets me just a bit, more so because I have believed in sony quality for years, and backed up those feelings with $$$ . My last sony purchase will probably be my 707, which I paid $1000 for and have never had a regret.
Phil "just barely" gave the 828 a "recommended". His test data
confirmed every comment and observation made in a recent thread by
Kubicide and others, including myself.

I wonder if Phil is going to get dragged over the coals like
everyone else who dared to speak of the apparent flaws of the 828.

Personally, I could barely tell the difference in resolution
between the 828 and the 300d with kit lens. I think the 300d with a
60 dollar f/1.8 prime would rival the 828 in resolution, and
possibly beat it.
A fixed-85mm equivelent lens is hardly appealing to most people no
matter how fast or sharp it is. Canon knows this and it is why they
didn't bundle it with the DR kit.
Lets not forget this comment found in Phils conclusion:
"Very small photosite compromising image quality (marketing over
quality)?"
(almost) Same photosite as all recent 1/1.8 sensor digicam...why
wasn't this brought up before.
But when people (including myself) said the 8mP may be more of a
marketing tool than something truly useful I was accused of
spawning conspiracy theories, and attributing bad motives to those
wonderful people at Sony.

It looks like the emporers really is undressed after all.

--
rich
'beware the eggplant'
c-7oo, d-51O, DSC-F7O7, 3OOD

'it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got'
http://www.pbase.com/iceninevt
--
rich
'beware the eggplant'
c-7oo, d-51O, DSC-F7O7, 3OOD

'it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got'
http://www.pbase.com/iceninevt
 
It's not like the sensor is simply a piece that fell off the turnip truck. It really does bring some new things into the F828.

The resolution is there, just like we've been saying. And the color is good, just as most had hoped. But the small dot pitch can't work miracles. Just like was expected.

But don't worry about it. If I get occasional cray-zees tailing me, then you shouldn't expect any less. After all, I'm a much nicer guy than you.

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!©
Phil "just barely" gave the 828 a "recommended". His test data
confirmed every comment and observation made in a recent thread by
Kubicide and others, including myself.

I wonder if Phil is going to get dragged over the coals like
everyone else who dared to speak of the apparent flaws of the 828.

Personally, I could barely tell the difference in resolution
between the 828 and the 300d with kit lens. I think the 300d with a
60 dollar f/1.8 prime would rival the 828 in resolution, and
possibly beat it.

Lets not forget this comment found in Phils conclusion:
"Very small photosite compromising image quality (marketing over
quality)?"

But when people (including myself) said the 8mP may be more of a
marketing tool than something truly useful I was accused of
spawning conspiracy theories, and attributing bad motives to those
wonderful people at Sony.

It looks like the emporers really is undressed after all.
--

Ulysses
 
Or the V1. At least you are assured to have all the most important elements of the Sony without having to put up with the flaws and pay only $500 or less. If picture quaility you are really after then you would do well going for a 300D.
Actually I think the F828 makes a fine 5mp camera! :-) (I'm serious!)
And it is certainly better than a S7000, except for the price. :)

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.org
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/
 
You are getting too emotional about this camera.....geeeeezzzz......your not married to it.
Phil "just barely" gave the 828 a "recommended". His test data
confirmed every comment and observation made in a recent thread by
Kubicide and others, including myself.

I wonder if Phil is going to get dragged over the coals like
everyone else who dared to speak of the apparent flaws of the 828.

Personally, I could barely tell the difference in resolution
between the 828 and the 300d with kit lens. I think the 300d with a
60 dollar f/1.8 prime would rival the 828 in resolution, and
possibly beat it.
A fixed-85mm equivelent lens is hardly appealing to most people no
matter how fast or sharp it is. Canon knows this and it is why they
didn't bundle it with the DR kit.
Lets not forget this comment found in Phils conclusion:
"Very small photosite compromising image quality (marketing over
quality)?"
(almost) Same photosite as all recent 1/1.8 sensor digicam...why
wasn't this brought up before.
But when people (including myself) said the 8mP may be more of a
marketing tool than something truly useful I was accused of
spawning conspiracy theories, and attributing bad motives to those
wonderful people at Sony.

It looks like the emporers really is undressed after all.

--
rich
'beware the eggplant'
c-7oo, d-51O, DSC-F7O7, 3OOD

'it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got'
http://www.pbase.com/iceninevt
 
beats the 717 at 5 m and you get all the added features. (unless you plan on shooting raw alot then maybe fuji f8000 if you can wait) Im in the same boat, I will wait for the Pano LC1 and see whats up.
I wonder how the S7000 12mp will look like downsized to 8mp and
both shot at ISO200...
Azrifel wrote:
And it is certainly better than a S7000, except for the price. :)
--



Keep On Snappin'! :-)
http://www.tigadee.fotopic.net
http://www.pbase.com/tigadee2
http://www.pbase.com/tigadee
--
nobody (nowhereatoll-dot-com)......[ O]..clic
 
I was intrigued by your comparison of the F828 and the G5. Can you try that same picture at F5.6, F4.0 and F3.0.

I would like to see the comparison between two cameras that have been attacked for their purple fringing.
 
Boatloads more resolution......if you only take pictures of black lines on a white background then yes, you have proof to back this up. If not, then we have no idea unless we run tests. Often times, detail can be from a slight tonal difference of the same color. Unfortunately, we still don't see any testing for this.

In the end, it's not the camera but the photographer (we hear that so many times, but always seem to forget it). If you are confident the 828 will get you the image you want, then it's a great camera -- for you.
Rich,

The camera has boatloads more resolution than the 717. It has a
bit more than the 300D (although I think it's time for Phil to put
some smaller details on his resolution test to help judge today's
super-high resolution cameras). Clearly it isn't "just a marketing
tool" or it wouldn't have boatloads more resolution than the 717.

--
my favorite work:
http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/featured_art&page=1
--
dgrogers

http://www.pbase.com/drog
 
but are these people the "target market"for the 828? The people who ask me this question are almost all still using there film cam... the laggerts... 828 is aming at differnt target group I understand...

JW
I think the 828 would have been AMAZING** with a 7x7 5mp sensor, Yes, I would rather have a 828 with the 7x7 sensor then their 8mP.
Whatever camera I carry (own many from Sony F828 to Canon 1Ds) the
only question people ask (besides calling my 1Ds big): How many MP.
Sony's answer 8MP :-).

Uwe
http://www.outbackphoto.com/reviews/equipment/sony_f828/sony_f828.html
I really don't want to pull your lever, I agree that the 828 beats
the 717 hands down, but the 300d with the kit lens looked better t
me in the resolution tests. The edge the 828 had was a small one,
and IMO wass offset by the superior image quality of the 300d. The
300d may actually beat the 828 in resolution with a 60 dollar f/1.8
prime.

Yes, there is an increase of resolution there, I do not dispute
that, but the increase in resolution comes at a price in terms of
image quality. Many have said this, including Phil.

I think the 828 would have been AMAZING** with a 7x7 5mp sensor,
Yes, I would rather have a 828 with the 7x7 sensor then their 8mP.
Many will agree with this. For people who agree with this the "8mp
as a marketing tool" comments are spot on.

Matthew, you are a niche user. For your application the 828 may be
perfect, but for many others it is far from perfect.
Rich,

The camera has boatloads more resolution than the 717. It has a
bit more than the 300D (although I think it's time for Phil to put
some smaller details on his resolution test to help judge today's
super-high resolution cameras). Clearly it isn't "just a marketing
tool" or it wouldn't have boatloads more resolution than the 717.

--
my favorite work:
http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/featured_art&page=1
--
rich
'beware the eggplant'
c-7oo, d-51O, DSC-F7O7, 3OOD

'it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got'
http://www.pbase.com/iceninevt
--
my canon s45 portfolio can be seen at http://www.xs4all.nl/~jwmars at
my 'recent archives' there. Reactions appreciated.
 
Why do you care so much that the Sony fails? How does it affect you
so deeply?
I don't specially care whether it fails or not. Even though I have a 10D myself, I am actually spending most of my quality shooting time with film nowadays.

But the whole approach of pushing 2-3 megapixels too far, exploiting the fact most consumers only know about megapixel counts, is the kind of practice that gives marketing a bad name. I distinctly remember reading the initial announcement and being quite excited, until I saw the sensor size, and my immediate reaction was, "what were they thinking of?".

I am also annoyed when Fujifilm claims its SuperCCD images have twice the resolution they really have, or when companies imply in a weasel way that digital zoom is somehow equivalent to optical zoom, or that interpolated resolution in scanners can yield 12000 dpi scans. In a completely different domain, it also irritates me when Minute Maid misleadingly uses the same packaging as Tropicana for their inferior from-concentrate orange juice, or when Kraft claims its grated parmesan cheese has "no added fat, fillers or preservatives" when the ingredients clearly list cellulose powder, a.k.a. sawdust.

It's one thing when this kind of practice is done by a fly-by-night company or those like Philip Morris/Kraft whose business it is to kill their customers off. But when I brand I trusted like Sony, Zeiss (I own many superlative Zeiss lenses on my Hasselblad) or Fuji (my first digicam was a Fuji) engages in these practices, I can't help but feel a little betrayed.
--
Fazal Majid ( http://www.majid.info )
 
I have been brand-loyal to sony for years. My large screen TV, my
DVD, my 500 watt home theatre amplifier are all Sony. My alarm
clock is a sony. i own a 707 that I truly love.

I was on the fence for a while trying to decide between the 300d
and 828. I really wanted the 828 to be a winner.

Sadly, of all the sony products I personally own, and all the
professional sony broadcast and profssional AV equipment I have
used over the years, I can truthfully say that this is the most
problematic device sony has ever released to production (IMO).

Sony took what could have been a stellar 5mp camera, added a 8mp
sensor, and ended up with a camera that is just barely
"recommended" All because a bunch of low-lifes sitting around a
beautiful, polished table decided that this was the best way to
sell more cameras.

Over the years the structure of large corporations have changed.
The "bean counters" are at the controls now, along with the
marketing bottom feeders.

It used to be that on a corporate level, marketing and sales would
answer to mgt, along with R&D, production and service. Not any
more. Now, marketing and sales still answers to managment, but now
R&D, production, customer service and the service dept frequently
answer to Marketing.

Bad. Very bad. People driven by the desire to do quality work now
answer to people driven by comission. Very bad

Ford
GM
Marantz
Harmon-Kardon
Blaupunkt
GE
JBL
Crown
Altec-Lansing

The list goes on. All these companies used to make a high quality
product. They have since sold out. They will claim they did this to
survive in todays marketplace. Sony did not engage in these
practices, until now.

PLease excuse me for being philosophical, evidently the consumer
would rather have "cheap" than "quality", and manufacturers no
longer rely on the quality of their product to maintain their
market-share. It would seem it is more cost effective for them to
resort to "aggressive marketing"
you know, the 8mp thing.., and to develop creative work-arounds to
design flaws (ISO 64 to remedy a noisy ISO 100) as opposed to
finding a quality solution.

Sony knew they had a problem long before the first 828 was ever
glued and taped together by their R&D dept. That didn't stop them,
they forged ahead anyway. .

Lets not forget either that sony intended on selling this little
gem for 1200 bucks. They dropped that in a hurry, didn't they.

NOt that my 300d, my PC. my cell phone, my laptop are made any
better, but they do perform as advertised. None have any real
problems, but they are all made cheap..

So yes, this upsets me just a bit, more so because I have believed
in sony quality for years, and backed up those feelings with $$$ .
My last sony purchase will probably be my 707, which I paid $1000
for and have never had a regret.
Phil "just barely" gave the 828 a "recommended". His test data
confirmed every comment and observation made in a recent thread by
Kubicide and others, including myself.

I wonder if Phil is going to get dragged over the coals like
everyone else who dared to speak of the apparent flaws of the 828.

Personally, I could barely tell the difference in resolution
between the 828 and the 300d with kit lens. I think the 300d with a
60 dollar f/1.8 prime would rival the 828 in resolution, and
possibly beat it.
A fixed-85mm equivelent lens is hardly appealing to most people no
matter how fast or sharp it is. Canon knows this and it is why they
didn't bundle it with the DR kit.
Lets not forget this comment found in Phils conclusion:
"Very small photosite compromising image quality (marketing over
quality)?"
(almost) Same photosite as all recent 1/1.8 sensor digicam...why
wasn't this brought up before.
But when people (including myself) said the 8mP may be more of a
marketing tool than something truly useful I was accused of
spawning conspiracy theories, and attributing bad motives to those
wonderful people at Sony.

It looks like the emporers really is undressed after all.

--
rich
'beware the eggplant'
c-7oo, d-51O, DSC-F7O7, 3OOD

'it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got'
http://www.pbase.com/iceninevt
--
rich
'beware the eggplant'
c-7oo, d-51O, DSC-F7O7, 3OOD

'it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got'
http://www.pbase.com/iceninevt
 
Evil,

I agree that there have been decidely moves to improve the "bottom line", and that this has put pressure on all facets of manufacture of a new products. In the past, companies had time to get their product dialed in. With competitive pressures, this is no longer the case. Its easy to blame marketing, but in reality, the demands of consumers and stockholders doesn't leave much room for error.

In the case of the 828, I think that the intent of building it around the small imager was a fine effort, maybe it was rushed, but, it didn't quite make it. In my case, I had been educated by person's here to understand that noise would be on par or even possibly a bit worse than the 717. This is in fact the case, and I had grown to accept it.

Conversely, I had also been educated to believe that the CZ lens would be top of its class. So far, I have found it wanting. Design, or build quality, take your pick. Either way, this comes down to cost and the final pricing of the product, as well as delivery schedule. This issue is fixable to a certain extent in production, I would argue, so things might get better. I would also argue that there are potential firmware tweaks to the Real image processor that can improve noise. Hopefully, later production models will bear this out.

I have to admit that Sony has had problems since the death of founder Akio Morita. Interestingly, he has been a model for Steve Jobs (who has stated so much in the past), who seems to have adopted many of Akio's qualities in product creation and design. Perhaps, Sony needs to return to its roots, and truly become an innovator again.

Either way, this isn't an end all for Sony prosumer cameras, but I would hope that they get out front on a follow on design. Maybe its time to bump up chip area.

BTW, I am in manufacturing, and what we call this recent phenomena is "race to the bottom", where price, features, and time to market make or break a product. Think of it as the WalMartization of the world, and we, the consumer, are driving it.

tom
 
funny thing is it looks like alot of u guys r, repeating ur self page after page :-) same thread diffrent topic. nice spamming tho.
I like the part where eggplant admitts his brand loyality... :-)

But whatever works for u :-)

Regards
Paul L.
 
It's one thing when this kind of practice is done by a fly-by-night
company or those like Philip Morris/Kraft whose business it is to
kill their customers off.
Get a life. Are you that gullible to believe all the propaganda you hear?

Philip morris doesn't kill anybody, they do it to themselves. I suppose General Motors "kills" people when they die in a car.

Maybe you should put this evil company out of business, so you can start paying your fair share of the taxes the smokers are taking care of for you now.

Blame a company for risky behavior people partake in by their own choice, unbelievable.

--
Doug D.
'Promise a rainbow, and someone will look to the sky.'
Equipment in profile.
http://public.fotki.com/DougD/
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumList?u=1681338
http://www.imagestation.com/member/
index.html?name=diamondspoint&c=201
http://www.pbase.com/doug_d
 
The bottom line to me is that the camera companies have done a good job of getting people to focus on high mp when looking at a camera.
This was a good strategy when going from a 1mp to 2mp or 2mp to 3mp etc.
However, the real limit for these sensors seems to around 4 or 5mp.

Who really NEEDS 8mp? In my opinion very few people. Unless you are doing some pretty drastic cropping, 4 or 5 mp is sufficient.

Phil has stated many times that he wished the camera companies would concentrate on, accurate color, noise, etc. , rather than increased mp.

Remember this quote?

Takashi Oshiyama, head of Canon's digital imaging business group, told Reuters in an interview "Those companies out there that have no experience producing film cameras have yet to create a camera that performs like a real camera should. I won't say who that is."

I think what he was really saying, was that technology is reaching a point where traditional camera companies will have the edge in overall image quality.

Over and over in this forum the phrase "Based on the 828 images I've seen posted, I think the 828 takes great pictures".

I've seen some great 828 pictures posted, however these have been by great photographers on this site, who could post great pictures from any camera.

To be honest, I haven't seen any pictures that make me go wow, it's because of the 828 that this picture is so good.

Also, a lot of the really good pictures have had post processing done to remove CA and noise. For DSLR users, post processing is a normal part of the workflow, mainly to bring out colors and sharpness. I don't think most people who want an all in one camera really want to go through all of that.

I respect the loyalty of Sony consumers, companies rely on these folks for their future.
For the 828, I think Sony made a huge mistake taking these people for granted.

In the end you have to provide the product to meet consumers expectations, or pay the price at the sales counter.
--
Doug D.
'Promise a rainbow, and someone will look to the sky.'
Equipment in profile.
http://public.fotki.com/DougD/
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumList?u=1681338
http://www.imagestation.com/member/
index.html?name=diamondspoint&c=201
http://www.pbase.com/doug_d
 
Me too, AWSOME images quality, high ISO settings but, I do miss the Sony interface.
Do I buy nor not? Do I buy or not....
Evil Eggplant wrote:
Phil "just barely" gave the 828 a "recommended". His test data
confirmed every comment and observation made in a recent thread by
Kubicide and others, including myself.
Isn;t recommended still good... except for the F828's price, I
guess... :-(
I wonder if Phil is going to get dragged over the coals like
everyone else who dared to speak of the apparent flaws of the 828.
I trust what he says. But in the end, my gut tells me the F828
still is the best camera for me...
Personally, I could barely tell the difference in resolution
between the 828 and the 300d with kit lens. I think the 300d with a
60 dollar f/1.8 prime would rival the 828 in resolution, and
possibly beat it.
With less noise too! But they're different category of cameras...
Lets not forget this comment found in Phils conclusion:
"Very small photosite compromising image quality (marketing over
quality)?"
Isn't everything about marketing? ;-)
But when people (including myself) said the 8mP may be more of a
marketing tool than something truly useful I was accused of
spawning conspiracy theories, and attributing bad motives to those
wonderful people at Sony.
Actually I think the F828 makes a fine 5mp camera! :-) (I'm serious!)
It looks like the emporers really is undressed after all.
--



Keep On Snappin'! :-)
http://www.tigadee.fotopic.net
http://www.pbase.com/tigadee2
http://www.pbase.com/tigadee
 

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