Did Reichmann go BLIND?!

Sorry Sony, but the 828 image quality sucks. Even if they print ok, people who use digital cameras look at them blown up to the pixel level, and the 828 is not even in the same league as a G3 or A70. Too bad...
--
MOLON LABE!

Regards,
John
 
Why all the angst. Why all the phallus wagging. Why all the size comparisons.

If you own the 10D, you realize that the 10D is only part of a camera system. In fact, the 10D is the most replaceable part of your camera system. The lenses are what you keep when you upgrade the body - particularly if you are an L-lens afficianado. In fact, the 10D is relatively the least expensive part of your system. I look forward to Canon replacing the 10D. This will mean I will have a better camera than the 10D eventually. A DSLR SYSTEM - of which the 10D is a component - is not static. You will continue to add components over time. It's like a living organism.

Everyone needs a snapshot camera. Even if you have a DSLR SYSTEM, you need a snapshot camera to carry around with you all the time, particularly where they don't allow you to have "Professional" lenses - such as in sports arenas and some monuments - such as the USS Arizona in Hawaii. You want something small to keep in your pocket or coat pocket - for that winning spontaneous photo. With film cameras, I use to carry around an Olympus mini camera. It had a great f/2.8 lens and fit in my shirt pocket or pants pocket.

The F828 is SO INEXPENSIVE compared to a DSLR SYSTEM, that if you own the 10D, you SHOULD consider purchasing the F828 as your snapshot camera since it is the best all-in-one camera thus far. After all, the F828 is less than the price of most L lenses. It's a drop in the bucket in the overall DSLR system. Three L Lenses alone (15-30L, 24-70 L, 70-200 L IS) will set you back $5000 - without the 10D and the rest of your accessories. With studio flash - including a 550EX and ST-E2 system - your have another $3000 spent. One day, the 10D will be replaced for a higher end model. Another $1500 spent.

So why the fuss? Get BOTH cameras and BE HAPPY.

If you can't afford it, don't argue. Get a second job.

A DSLR SYSTEM is an expensive hobby to get into. It includes your ever enlarging computer system - the one you keep upgrading so you can store your data and Photoshop your images. It includes the lighting system you decide to use - some people like studio lights, some portable flashheads, some natural light.

Of course, expensive is relative. The average avid golfer that the industry relies on spends around $2000 a year in equipment and fees. A nice couch can run you $3000 alone. Computers as a hobby can run you into the thousands of dollars. Don't talk about the cost of automobiles as a hobby - even if you only hot-rod one car.
I just read, and then re-read, Michael Reichmann's new Sony F828
"Review" over at LL -- found here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sony828.shtml

While the thing is obviously built and designed exceptionally well
for a high-end P&S digicam, I can't help but come away with a
strong sense of "what was he seeing?" when looking at the
comparison images -- particularly the ones shot with the F828 at
ISO 64 compared to ISO 100 on the 10D.

Those 8MP images are so noisy and fail to resolve anywhere near the
detail of the 6MP 10D files as a result -- forgetting even higher
ISOs. Looking at the building detail, it's clear to see that Sony's
new RGBE sensor with such a high density just isn't able to get the
job done.

Perhaps I'm too used to smooth, clean dSLR images, but the F828
images look worse then Kodak's early 14n samples by a wide margin,
and that's none too flattering. They SO hit a home run on the rest
of the features (save for RAW speed) that I was dying for them to
do likewise with the sensor as well. I've been looking closely at
the images posted in STF, but they're all the same, noisy, blotchy
images that Michael has posted.

That's too bad :-(

Brendan
--
Things that make you go, hmmmm...
 
By a Canon S400 for P&S much better!
If you own the 10D, you realize that the 10D is only part of a
camera system. In fact, the 10D is the most replaceable part of
your camera system. The lenses are what you keep when you upgrade
the body - particularly if you are an L-lens afficianado. In fact,
the 10D is relatively the least expensive part of your system. I
look forward to Canon replacing the 10D. This will mean I will
have a better camera than the 10D eventually. A DSLR SYSTEM - of
which the 10D is a component - is not static. You will continue to
add components over time. It's like a living organism.

Everyone needs a snapshot camera. Even if you have a DSLR SYSTEM,
you need a snapshot camera to carry around with you all the time,
particularly where they don't allow you to have "Professional"
lenses - such as in sports arenas and some monuments - such as the
USS Arizona in Hawaii. You want something small to keep in your
pocket or coat pocket - for that winning spontaneous photo. With
film cameras, I use to carry around an Olympus mini camera. It had
a great f/2.8 lens and fit in my shirt pocket or pants pocket.

The F828 is SO INEXPENSIVE compared to a DSLR SYSTEM, that if you
own the 10D, you SHOULD consider purchasing the F828 as your
snapshot camera since it is the best all-in-one camera thus far.
After all, the F828 is less than the price of most L lenses. It's
a drop in the bucket in the overall DSLR system. Three L Lenses
alone (15-30L, 24-70 L, 70-200 L IS) will set you back $5000 -
without the 10D and the rest of your accessories. With studio
flash - including a 550EX and ST-E2 system - your have another
$3000 spent. One day, the 10D will be replaced for a higher end
model. Another $1500 spent.

So why the fuss? Get BOTH cameras and BE HAPPY.

If you can't afford it, don't argue. Get a second job.

A DSLR SYSTEM is an expensive hobby to get into. It includes your
ever enlarging computer system - the one you keep upgrading so you
can store your data and Photoshop your images. It includes the
lighting system you decide to use - some people like studio lights,
some portable flashheads, some natural light.

Of course, expensive is relative. The average avid golfer that the
industry relies on spends around $2000 a year in equipment and
fees. A nice couch can run you $3000 alone. Computers as a hobby
can run you into the thousands of dollars. Don't talk about the
cost of automobiles as a hobby - even if you only hot-rod one car.
I just read, and then re-read, Michael Reichmann's new Sony F828
"Review" over at LL -- found here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sony828.shtml

While the thing is obviously built and designed exceptionally well
for a high-end P&S digicam, I can't help but come away with a
strong sense of "what was he seeing?" when looking at the
comparison images -- particularly the ones shot with the F828 at
ISO 64 compared to ISO 100 on the 10D.

Those 8MP images are so noisy and fail to resolve anywhere near the
detail of the 6MP 10D files as a result -- forgetting even higher
ISOs. Looking at the building detail, it's clear to see that Sony's
new RGBE sensor with such a high density just isn't able to get the
job done.

Perhaps I'm too used to smooth, clean dSLR images, but the F828
images look worse then Kodak's early 14n samples by a wide margin,
and that's none too flattering. They SO hit a home run on the rest
of the features (save for RAW speed) that I was dying for them to
do likewise with the sensor as well. I've been looking closely at
the images posted in STF, but they're all the same, noisy, blotchy
images that Michael has posted.

That's too bad :-(

Brendan
--
Things that make you go, hmmmm...
 
I had a 707 and it was way to large. I guess the new one with 200mm makes it more acceptable but I would prefer a small camera just to keep in my car or pocket.
JR.
 
The very fact that Reichmann did an image comparison between the two cameras implies that he thinks they should be considered at an equal level as competitors. The empirical results clearly do not support that conclusion. His review is mind boggling.
 
I hardly think you're objective, Alfred.

As for some other people in this thread, I think some of you haven't actually READ the whole review. You scan down it, read bits and pieces of it, look at the illustrations, and then pass judgement.

This is an occupational hazard for reviewers of anything. The basic problem is that consumers can afford to be Draconian in their judgements. You decide to buy one thing and not another, and suddenly the one you chose is great and everything else sucks.

Reviewers can't afford to be this myopic. It's not fair to the users of those products, nor to the manufacturer. Some immature people jump to the conclusion that the reviewer is "in the pay" of the manufacturer, which is usually ludicrous, not to mention slanderous. (It's not even really possible to "sell out," because nobody's buying. In the immortal words of Jerry Garcia, "We'd sell out if only we knew how.")

It's true that Michael Reichmann is a friend of mine and that I write a column on his site. That's why I'm in a position to know that he--even more so than most magazine reviewers, who may be getting pressure from their own advertising sales people--is wholly independent. He made his fortune in another industry and now pursues photography for fun and interest. The Luminous Landscape is quite simply a labor of love--it loses LOTS of money because it doesn't take any advertisements, and Michael pays for virtually everything he reviews out of his own pocket. He works hard on it and shares it with you because he enjoys it.

As for his conclusions, if you don't agree with them, have you ever considered why? Is it because you also have made the same comparions with the same equipment? Not hardly. It's because Michael puts enough evidence into his review that you are able to draw your own conclusion, even if it's the opposite of his. And for this you slander and insult him?

So let's be grownups, shall we gang? (Even though some of you literally aren't--I'm quite sure there are a number of teenagers posting hereabouts.) Disagree if you want to. Draw the opposite conclusion if that's what seems reasonable to you. Just keep in mind that MR and other reviewers (myself included--I've written 70 columns for Luminous Landscape without getting a penny for it) are doing all this because it's

F U N.

So lighten up!

--Mike
http://www.37thframe.com

NEW Links page!
 
Hi Mike!

I agree with you 100%. The review is generally quite close to my own observations/opinions of the F828 and its quality in relation to the Canon 10D; the people on this forum are being ridiculous as happens on so many other marque specific forums. Where MR and I diverge in our opinion is on the ergonomics of the dual viewfinders (I don't find the manual switching to be any big deal at all where he seems to be a little bent by it). He's also more sensitive to the Mode selector control organization than I am.

After spending an hour or two with one, the F828 happens to succeed in just the ways I thought it would. And the 10D remains superior in just the ways I suspected it should as well. I see that both are viable complements in my kit, and plan to buy an F828 a little later in the year (when the Mac OS X version of the RAW processing software becomes available or is incorporated into Photoshop CS). Pretty much on the plan I conceived of when I decided to buy the 10D kit in September.

I'm going to look into "The 37th Frame" a little more. Skimming your website, it looks like an interesting effort.

best,
Godfrey
Happy New Year!
I hardly think you're objective, Alfred.

As for some other people in this thread, I think some of you
haven't actually READ the whole review. You scan down it, read bits
and pieces of it, look at the illustrations, and then pass
judgement.

This is an occupational hazard for reviewers of anything. The basic
problem is that consumers can afford to be Draconian in their
judgements. You decide to buy one thing and not another, and
suddenly the one you chose is great and everything else sucks.

Reviewers can't afford to be this myopic. It's not fair to the
users of those products, nor to the manufacturer. Some immature
people jump to the conclusion that the reviewer is "in the pay" of
the manufacturer, which is usually ludicrous, not to mention
slanderous. (It's not even really possible to "sell out," because
nobody's buying. In the immortal words of Jerry Garcia, "We'd sell
out if only we knew how.")

It's true that Michael Reichmann is a friend of mine and that I
write a column on his site. That's why I'm in a position to know
that he--even more so than most magazine reviewers, who may be
getting pressure from their own advertising sales people--is wholly
independent. He made his fortune in another industry and now
pursues photography for fun and interest. The Luminous Landscape is
quite simply a labor of love--it loses LOTS of money because it
doesn't take any advertisements, and Michael pays for virtually
everything he reviews out of his own pocket. He works hard on it
and shares it with you because he enjoys it.

As for his conclusions, if you don't agree with them, have you ever
considered why? Is it because you also have made the same
comparions with the same equipment? Not hardly. It's because
Michael puts enough evidence into his review that you are able to
draw your own conclusion, even if it's the opposite of his. And for
this you slander and insult him?

So let's be grownups, shall we gang? (Even though some of you
literally aren't--I'm quite sure there are a number of teenagers
posting hereabouts.) Disagree if you want to. Draw the opposite
conclusion if that's what seems reasonable to you. Just keep in
mind that MR and other reviewers (myself included--I've written 70
columns for Luminous Landscape without getting a penny for it) are
doing all this because it's

F U N.

So lighten up!

--Mike
http://www.37thframe.com

NEW Links page!
 
OK – I’ll stay quiet. I know I do not domain the written language as well as you do, and I can’t argue as fast and witty as you do, so I’ll be quiet.

BUT, I must say that I read the review and I do not agree with what his opinion is on the noise. Actually, he proved to me with his review how awful the camera is. As far as he being paid to do such review I think we’re over that and I truly don’t believe that anyone on that site has been paid to review cameras. Actually I’m usually more concerned about impartiality on this site than on Reichmann’s.

So what the hell is my problem? I love Reichmann’s site for all sorts of stuff – I often learn new tricks there. I believe it really comes down to my style of reading reviews and how they are presented. That article (and yours typically) are very much based on personal experience and where the text is more of an intellectual treat than a review per se. DPreview on the other hand tries to show the facts and allow for each reader to make judgment. Believe me, I am by no means a technical guy in photography, actually I prefer the art sites of photography much better and would prefer to discuss that aspect more than technical stuff. But being a right/left brain kind of guy, I tend to look at technical stuff and art stuff without mixing them a whole lot.

I don’t think I insulted or slandered him with my comment, but if I did that was not my intent. I just gave my opinion as he gave his. Opposing points of view happen when you make your opinions public.

Said that I hope we all learn from past experiences and apply them to future endeavors.

Alfred
I hardly think you're objective, Alfred.

As for some other people in this thread, I think some of you
haven't actually READ the whole review. You scan down it, read bits
and pieces of it, look at the illustrations, and then pass
judgement.

This is an occupational hazard for reviewers of anything. The basic
problem is that consumers can afford to be Draconian in their
judgements. You decide to buy one thing and not another, and
suddenly the one you chose is great and everything else sucks.

Reviewers can't afford to be this myopic. It's not fair to the
users of those products, nor to the manufacturer. Some immature
people jump to the conclusion that the reviewer is "in the pay" of
the manufacturer, which is usually ludicrous, not to mention
slanderous. (It's not even really possible to "sell out," because
nobody's buying. In the immortal words of Jerry Garcia, "We'd sell
out if only we knew how.")

It's true that Michael Reichmann is a friend of mine and that I
write a column on his site. That's why I'm in a position to know
that he--even more so than most magazine reviewers, who may be
getting pressure from their own advertising sales people--is wholly
independent. He made his fortune in another industry and now
pursues photography for fun and interest. The Luminous Landscape is
quite simply a labor of love--it loses LOTS of money because it
doesn't take any advertisements, and Michael pays for virtually
everything he reviews out of his own pocket. He works hard on it
and shares it with you because he enjoys it.

As for his conclusions, if you don't agree with them, have you ever
considered why? Is it because you also have made the same
comparions with the same equipment? Not hardly. It's because
Michael puts enough evidence into his review that you are able to
draw your own conclusion, even if it's the opposite of his. And for
this you slander and insult him?

So let's be grownups, shall we gang? (Even though some of you
literally aren't--I'm quite sure there are a number of teenagers
posting hereabouts.) Disagree if you want to. Draw the opposite
conclusion if that's what seems reasonable to you. Just keep in
mind that MR and other reviewers (myself included--I've written 70
columns for Luminous Landscape without getting a penny for it) are
doing all this because it's

F U N.

So lighten up!

--Mike
http://www.37thframe.com

NEW Links page!
 
Hi Mike!

I agree with you 100%. The review is generally quite close to my
own observations/opinions of the F828 and its quality in relation
to the Canon 10D [snip]
I'm going to look into "The 37th Frame" a little more. Skimming
your website, it looks like an interesting effort.
Godfrey,
Happy New Year to you too.

You should be able to download a .pdf of Issue #3 (of the newsletter, I mean) on the "Subscribe" page. A few people have had problems with it, but most seem to be able to get it.

The trouble is that so far, #3 is the best issue...#'s 4 and 5 haven't quite come up to the same standard. For a long time now I've been trying to hire a new printer and a new fulfillment house so I can unload some of the donkeywork and make the mailings more efficient. I had anticipated a subscribership of about 200, based on what other photo newsletters circulate, but The 37th Frame has been a bit more popular than that--it's coming up on 1k subscribers, despite the high price and small page-count. Frankly, it has swamped me a bit. This past year I've also been trying to get my first book out, which has taken more time and trouble than it should have. I had originally anticipated being able to start shipping the book in August '03, and as of now (New Year's Eve) I still don't have a date certain. So this has really eaten into the time I had hoped to be able to devote to the newsletter this fall and early winter.

However, one of the nice things about being the Captain of a kayak is that even when you capsize, you can usually pop right back up and get going again. (g)

Thanks for the interest--please do go get that download.

--Mike (captain and crew of the kayak "37th Frame")
http://www.37thframe.com

NEW Links page!
 
I must say that I read the review and I do not agree with what
his opinion is on the noise. Actually, he proved to me with his
review how awful the camera is.
That was my point--he gives you enough information to draw your own conclusion, even if yours disagrees with his. To me, that's a good thing.
That article (and yours typically) are very much based
on personal experience and where the text is more of an
intellectual treat than a review per se.
Yes (and thanks!), that's what I try to do--just give my opinion and my subjective reaction. I wouldn't call my columns "reviews" in any real sense.

There are many strategies for writing reviews:

1. Detailed description of features and operations...useful for people who don't understand how something works or who are interested most in technical performance.

2. Conveying personal experience...useful for people who are curious about what it's like to use the product but haven't seen it or used it yet themselves.

3. Providing perspective...when someone with broad experience judges where a certain product falls in relation to others, and to the industry, and judges how it might or might not appeal to buyers. Useful for people who don't have an overview of the product category.

There might even be a fourth:

4. A "philosophical" approach...where the writer argues for or against something based on his or her own principles, tastes, and beliefs. Useful for readers who might be forming their own approach to working, or are interested in the approaches of others.

I think what I mainly do is style #2...usually with a fair amount of either #3 or #4 (seldom both) thrown in. What Phil A. does is #1. I think what MR does is a combination of #1 and #2, with, as you say, more of a bias towards #2.
I don’t think I insulted or slandered him with my comment, but if I
did that was not my intent.
Todd Walker started a pretty funny thread elsewhere...he took offense at being "insulted" by MR! I thought that was pretty rich, considering what's been said of MR here. He's been called blind, bribed, useless, all sorts of nasty things...then when he defends himself he's accused of being insulting. Heh.

Heck, they're just cameras. The pictures most of us take will never amount to a hill of beans in this world. We do this because it's satisfying and interesting, and, hopefully, fun too.

--Mike
http://www.37thframe.com

NEW Links page!
 
Mike:

Just wanted to say that you've enriched my appreciation for photography more than any other editor/writer on the subject. I've been a fan of yours since the early days of Camera & Darkroom and have yet to see anyone else who communicates with his/her heart and mind as eloquently and perceptively as you do.

I'm glad it's fun for you...and wanted to let you know that many of us appreciate what you do too.

Have a good New Year everyone.

Tony
 
David,

I compared images from the 828 and the 10D printed to the same size on the vertical aspect ratio (12 inches) on my Epson 2200 on Enhanced Matte paper.

Myself and two coworkers thought the 828 was better for the landscape images, because of better fine detail and finer minimum feature size.

I suspect Michael Riechmann is seeing the same thing.
--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/featured_art&page=1
 
Mike,

I love your column. Agree completely with your analysis of different types of "reviews". And agree completely that they're just cameras. And disagree completely that Paul should put a sock in it.

Personally if anyone needs to put a sock in it, it's MR. I can't stand someone who puts up a half baked not very well thought out "review" -- his term not anyone else's -- and then starts name-calling when people call him on it.

His whole schtick about "pixel peepers" is ad hominem at its worst. I read the review, thought it was goofy and filled with the usual equal parts rubbish and insight which is the signature of his commentary, and was ready to move on. But when I started reading his attacks on those who would point out the rather obvious errors in his opinions I flipped into a different camp.

The problems here seem to be: (1) he doesn't have an editor; and (2) he's in love with his opinions; (3) he's short on technical knowledge. I'll turn to each of the issues:

1. No editor -- if this were a print magazine this rank stuff would get cleaned up by even the worst of editors. But since what he thinks can get published without a review he and the rest of us don't get the minimum filter we've come to expect in most mediums.

2. Opinions -- my sense is that MR is so enamored with his own opinions that he's incapable of being his own editor. He simply can't see when he's off the beam or when he's being terminally inconsistent (His latest explanation of why he judges noise in the Kodak differently than the nosie in the 828 is a good example. How is the noise different? Can he explain it? Quantify it? What are the standards? Is it anything more than an ex post fact rationalization?). Compounding the problem is that he does an absolute horrible job of making clear what is fact and what is opinion. Now if there was an editor all this would get sorted out, but there is no editor, so it doesn't.

3. Short on technical knowledge -- his contributions to the web site reminds me of PC Magazine -- great if you don't know much obviously flawed if you do. For instance, MR's printing discussions -- which he puts forth as fact not opinion BTW -- are terminally silly, bearing more of a resemblance to numerology than to the technology. I mean who in their right mind would talk about DPI -- something meaningful only for digital halftones -- when discussing ink jet printers that don't use digital halftones.

I've never mentioned any of this because in most instances it's better to just leave things alone. But this entiire spate of attacks on anyone who dares mention that the emperor has no clothers irritates me out of my mind. If you want exhibit A as to childish behaviors, you don't have to look any further than MR. He's the guy claiming people are accuing him of taking drugs and all sorts of other nonesense (apparently in his mind a humorous post about LL being on crack is a serious accusation of drug abuse, C'mon), falling into a "poor me I"ve been brutalized by the web police" mode which is hardly flattering.

To me he just can't handle legitimate criticism. You want to put up a commercial web site and pontificate, well, you had better be prepared for a bit of flack once in a while. Comes with the territory. I have friends in the news business who write columns, and what he's seen is very mild by comparison with the nasty stuff they get all the time. Which isn't to say that anyone likes nasty grams or that some things aren't objectionable.

But no, I don't think Paul should put a sock in it. I think we should all be thankful for the people who are filling the editorial role which is not othewise filled on self-published web sites. Not demean them by calling them "pixel peepers" (another name for people who don't agree with me) or tell them to stiffle. Perhaps while we're at it we can cool the jets on the name calling all around

And finally, in closing let me say that your weekly columns are absolutely terrific and I hope your new year finds you prosperous and photographically blessed!
Todd Walker started a pretty funny thread elsewhere...he took
offense at being "insulted" by MR! I thought that was pretty rich,
considering what's been said of MR here. He's been called blind,
bribed, useless, all sorts of nasty things...then when he defends
himself he's accused of being insulting. Heh.

Heck, they're just cameras. The pictures most of us take will never
amount to a hill of beans in this world. We do this because it's
satisfying and interesting, and, hopefully, fun too.

--Mike
http://www.37thframe.com

NEW Links page!
 
Mike Johnston wrote:
[snip]
I think what I mainly do is style #2...usually with a fair amount
of either #3 or #4 (seldom both) thrown in. What Phil A. does is
  1. 1. I think what MR does is a combination of #1 and #2, with, as
you say, more of a bias towards #2.
[snip]

First off, I'd like to express my appreciation of your column -- it's given me inspiration and food for thought a good many times, especially when I've disagreed with you. :-)

I think the point that Mr. Reichmann (and, it appears, you) are missing is this: MR's reviews maybe weighted towards #2, but he tends to present his opinions as "facts," and greatly resents if someone disagrees with him. Moreover, he has a record of ignoring the flaws of products he likes (and, conversely, harping on the flaws of products he doesn't like -- compare the discussion on noise on the Sony review, for example, with that on the Kodak 14n review -- and, again, on some of the MF digital back reviews). IOW, he does #2, but makes like he's doing #1.

To take a practical example, I bought the Epson 2100 largely on MR's recommendation. His statement that metamerism is definitely a thing of the past was a major point in making the purchase decision. Now, I'm sure that the printer is much better than previous pigment-based printers in that respect, but the issue is definitely not gone. If my B/W prints look great in the bedroom but greenish in the dining room, I would really have appreciated that someone of MR's experience would've said so. He should have known -- and he should have said so.

The same pattern ticks me off in the Sony review. Not as much the noise, as the treatment of CA. He pooh-poohs the issue as insignificant, while I'm quite certain from his samples (and others) that it's serious enough to require some pretty involved post-processing at least for prints around 11 x 14. Now, while this probably isn't a showstopper, it is a significant downside -- and MR should have treated it that way -- as Uwe Steinmüller did in his review. Treating the issue candidly didn't stop Uwe from reaching a very favorable conclusion -- and the way he covered it gives me a lot more respect for his opinion as a reviewer than MR's.

Oh, and for the record -- I really enjoy Luminous Landscape, and find it an immensely valuable resource for photography in general, digital photography in particular. That's why I think it doubly important that when it appears that an authority like him strays off objectivity, he be called out on it.

Mike -- (and MR, if you're reading this) -- this isn't about brand loyalty or pixel-squinting. It's about a reviewer's integrity. You should be especially candid about the flaws of a product if you like it. Then explain why you like it despite the flaws.

Finally... I wonder how come MR could be so entirely forthright about the design issues with the 828, while he couldn't do the same about the image issues. I don't subscribe to the drug/alcohol/eyesight/conspiracy theory camp, but I do subscribe to the self-deception theory. God knows we're all capable of that. It's just that (we) reviewers should make an effort at fighting the impulse -- even if we're just amateurs doing it for the love of the art, as it were.

(Yes, I've written a few reviews too. Here's mine about the Sigma 12-24: [ http://194.100.88.243/petteri/pont/Reviews/a_Sigma_12-24_f4.5-5.6/a_Sigma_EX_12-24_f4.5-5.6.html ].)

Petteri
--




Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Pontification: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/ ]
 
I wish I could write my point of view that well!

Anyway, happy new year to all that celebrate it today! (ME? - I'm going to bed, I'm tired. It has been a long year!)

Alfred
I think what I mainly do is style #2...usually with a fair amount
of either #3 or #4 (seldom both) thrown in. What Phil A. does is
  1. 1. I think what MR does is a combination of #1 and #2, with, as
you say, more of a bias towards #2.
[snip]

First off, I'd like to express my appreciation of your column --
it's given me inspiration and food for thought a good many times,
especially when I've disagreed with you. :-)

I think the point that Mr. Reichmann (and, it appears, you) are
missing is this: MR's reviews maybe weighted towards #2, but he
tends to present his opinions as "facts," and greatly resents if
someone disagrees with him. Moreover, he has a record of ignoring
the flaws of products he likes (and, conversely, harping on the
flaws of products he doesn't like -- compare the discussion on
noise on the Sony review, for example, with that on the Kodak 14n
review -- and, again, on some of the MF digital back reviews). IOW,
he does #2, but makes like he's doing #1.

To take a practical example, I bought the Epson 2100 largely on
MR's recommendation. His statement that metamerism is definitely a
thing of the past was a major point in making the purchase
decision. Now, I'm sure that the printer is much better than
previous pigment-based printers in that respect, but the issue is
definitely not gone. If my B/W prints look great in the bedroom but
greenish in the dining room, I would really have appreciated that
someone of MR's experience would've said so. He should have known
-- and he should have said so.

The same pattern ticks me off in the Sony review. Not as much the
noise, as the treatment of CA. He pooh-poohs the issue as
insignificant, while I'm quite certain from his samples (and
others) that it's serious enough to require some pretty involved
post-processing at least for prints around 11 x 14. Now, while this
probably isn't a showstopper, it is a significant downside -- and
MR should have treated it that way -- as Uwe Steinmüller did in his
review. Treating the issue candidly didn't stop Uwe from reaching a
very favorable conclusion -- and the way he covered it gives me a
lot more respect for his opinion as a reviewer than MR's.

Oh, and for the record -- I really enjoy Luminous Landscape, and
find it an immensely valuable resource for photography in general,
digital photography in particular. That's why I think it doubly
important that when it appears that an authority like him strays
off objectivity, he be called out on it.

Mike -- (and MR, if you're reading this) -- this isn't about brand
loyalty or pixel-squinting. It's about a reviewer's integrity. You
should be especially candid about the flaws of a product if you
like it. Then explain why you like it despite the flaws.

Finally... I wonder how come MR could be so entirely forthright
about the design issues with the 828, while he couldn't do the same
about the image issues. I don't subscribe to the
drug/alcohol/eyesight/conspiracy theory camp, but I do subscribe to
the self-deception theory. God knows we're all capable of that.
It's just that (we) reviewers should make an effort at fighting the
impulse -- even if we're just amateurs doing it for the love of the
art, as it were.

(Yes, I've written a few reviews too. Here's mine about the Sigma
12-24: [

http://194.100.88.243/petteri/pont/Reviews/a_Sigma_12-24_f4.5-5.6/a_Sigma_EX_12-24_f4.5-5.6.html ].)

Petteri
--




Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Pontification: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/ ]
 
David,

I compared images from the 828 and the 10D printed to the same size
on the vertical aspect ratio (12 inches) on my Epson 2200 on
Enhanced Matte paper.

Myself and two coworkers thought the 828 was better for the
landscape images, because of better fine detail and finer minimum
feature size.

I suspect Michael Riechmann is seeing the same thing.
--
my favorite work:
http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/featured_art&page=1
No problems with that at all, Matthew. In fact no problems with the general conclusions- providing you know enough to be able to read between the lines.

My difficulty was that I thought the wording was such that they would tend to mislead people who are perhaps unfamiliar with digital cameras, for instance both you and I know that on those 'virtually invisible' noise shots things can very rapidly get hairy and not invisible at all as soon as you start pushing the shot and looking at the shadows.

This does not make the 828 an exceptionally noisy camera, nor does it mean other than that I thought his wording, in short his review, was confusing and could cause people to be misled.
This does not denigrate the 828 in any way.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
I love your column. Agree completely with your analysis of
different types of "reviews". And agree completely that they're
just cameras. And disagree completely that Paul should put a sock
in it.

Personally if anyone needs to put a sock in it, it's MR. I can't
stand someone who puts up a half baked not very well thought out
"review" -- his term not anyone else's -- and then starts
name-calling when people call him on it.

His whole schtick about "pixel peepers" is ad hominem at its worst.
I read the review, thought it was goofy and filled with the usual
equal parts rubbish and insight which is the signature of his
commentary, and was ready to move on. But when I started reading
his attacks on those who would point out the rather obvious errors
in his opinions I flipped into a different camp.

The problems here seem to be: (1) he doesn't have an editor; and
(2) he's in love with his opinions; (3) he's short on technical
knowledge. I'll turn to each of the issues:

1. No editor -- if this were a print magazine this rank stuff would
get cleaned up by even the worst of editors. But since what he
thinks can get published without a review he and the rest of us
don't get the minimum filter we've come to expect in most mediums.

2. Opinions -- my sense is that MR is so enamored with his own
opinions that he's incapable of being his own editor. He simply
can't see when he's off the beam or when he's being terminally
inconsistent (His latest explanation of why he judges noise in the
Kodak differently than the nosie in the 828 is a good example. How
is the noise different? Can he explain it? Quantify it? What are
the standards? Is it anything more than an ex post fact
rationalization?). Compounding the problem is that he does an
absolute horrible job of making clear what is fact and what is
opinion. Now if there was an editor all this would get sorted out,
but there is no editor, so it doesn't.

3. Short on technical knowledge -- his contributions to the web
site reminds me of PC Magazine -- great if you don't know much
obviously flawed if you do. For instance, MR's printing discussions
-- which he puts forth as fact not opinion BTW -- are terminally
silly, bearing more of a resemblance to numerology than to the
technology. I mean who in their right mind would talk about DPI --
something meaningful only for digital halftones -- when discussing
ink jet printers that don't use digital halftones.

I've never mentioned any of this because in most instances it's
better to just leave things alone. But this entiire spate of
attacks on anyone who dares mention that the emperor has no
clothers irritates me out of my mind. If you want exhibit A as to
childish behaviors, you don't have to look any further than MR.
He's the guy claiming people are accuing him of taking drugs and
all sorts of other nonesense (apparently in his mind a humorous
post about LL being on crack is a serious accusation of drug abuse,
C'mon), falling into a "poor me I"ve been brutalized by the web
police" mode which is hardly flattering.

To me he just can't handle legitimate criticism. You want to put up
a commercial web site and pontificate, well, you had better be
prepared for a bit of flack once in a while. Comes with the
territory. I have friends in the news business who write columns,
and what he's seen is very mild by comparison with the nasty stuff
they get all the time. Which isn't to say that anyone likes nasty
grams or that some things aren't objectionable.

But no, I don't think Paul should put a sock in it. I think we
should all be thankful for the people who are filling the editorial
role which is not othewise filled on self-published web sites. Not
demean them by calling them "pixel peepers" (another name for
people who don't agree with me) or tell them to stiffle. Perhaps
while we're at it we can cool the jets on the name calling all
around

And finally, in closing let me say that your weekly columns are
absolutely terrific and I hope your new year finds you prosperous
and photographically blessed!
Todd Walker started a pretty funny thread elsewhere...he took
offense at being "insulted" by MR! I thought that was pretty rich,
considering what's been said of MR here. He's been called blind,
bribed, useless, all sorts of nasty things...then when he defends
himself he's accused of being insulting. Heh.

Heck, they're just cameras. The pictures most of us take will never
amount to a hill of beans in this world. We do this because it's
satisfying and interesting, and, hopefully, fun too.

--Mike
http://www.37thframe.com

NEW Links page!
Eloquently expressed, Donald and Petteri. Thanks for saying so beautifully that which I have tried to convey.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
It's a review of a camera!! I'm sure there is something better for you to spend your time on. Seriously, maybe go out and take some pictures? I mean it would probably put you above the bar of average maturity to realize that this is nothing more then "ego crushing" thats going back and forth. To pay so much attention to this and take it so seriously is just a waste. I would rather see you post some killer pictures that you're really proud of.
I love your column. Agree completely with your analysis of
different types of "reviews". And agree completely that they're
just cameras. And disagree completely that Paul should put a sock
in it.

Personally if anyone needs to put a sock in it, it's MR. I can't
stand someone who puts up a half baked not very well thought out
"review" -- his term not anyone else's -- and then starts
name-calling when people call him on it.

His whole schtick about "pixel peepers" is ad hominem at its worst.
I read the review, thought it was goofy and filled with the usual
equal parts rubbish and insight which is the signature of his
commentary, and was ready to move on. But when I started reading
his attacks on those who would point out the rather obvious errors
in his opinions I flipped into a different camp.

The problems here seem to be: (1) he doesn't have an editor; and
(2) he's in love with his opinions; (3) he's short on technical
knowledge. I'll turn to each of the issues:

1. No editor -- if this were a print magazine this rank stuff would
get cleaned up by even the worst of editors. But since what he
thinks can get published without a review he and the rest of us
don't get the minimum filter we've come to expect in most mediums.

2. Opinions -- my sense is that MR is so enamored with his own
opinions that he's incapable of being his own editor. He simply
can't see when he's off the beam or when he's being terminally
inconsistent (His latest explanation of why he judges noise in the
Kodak differently than the nosie in the 828 is a good example. How
is the noise different? Can he explain it? Quantify it? What are
the standards? Is it anything more than an ex post fact
rationalization?). Compounding the problem is that he does an
absolute horrible job of making clear what is fact and what is
opinion. Now if there was an editor all this would get sorted out,
but there is no editor, so it doesn't.

3. Short on technical knowledge -- his contributions to the web
site reminds me of PC Magazine -- great if you don't know much
obviously flawed if you do. For instance, MR's printing discussions
-- which he puts forth as fact not opinion BTW -- are terminally
silly, bearing more of a resemblance to numerology than to the
technology. I mean who in their right mind would talk about DPI --
something meaningful only for digital halftones -- when discussing
ink jet printers that don't use digital halftones.

I've never mentioned any of this because in most instances it's
better to just leave things alone. But this entiire spate of
attacks on anyone who dares mention that the emperor has no
clothers irritates me out of my mind. If you want exhibit A as to
childish behaviors, you don't have to look any further than MR.
He's the guy claiming people are accuing him of taking drugs and
all sorts of other nonesense (apparently in his mind a humorous
post about LL being on crack is a serious accusation of drug abuse,
C'mon), falling into a "poor me I"ve been brutalized by the web
police" mode which is hardly flattering.

To me he just can't handle legitimate criticism. You want to put up
a commercial web site and pontificate, well, you had better be
prepared for a bit of flack once in a while. Comes with the
territory. I have friends in the news business who write columns,
and what he's seen is very mild by comparison with the nasty stuff
they get all the time. Which isn't to say that anyone likes nasty
grams or that some things aren't objectionable.

But no, I don't think Paul should put a sock in it. I think we
should all be thankful for the people who are filling the editorial
role which is not othewise filled on self-published web sites. Not
demean them by calling them "pixel peepers" (another name for
people who don't agree with me) or tell them to stiffle. Perhaps
while we're at it we can cool the jets on the name calling all
around

And finally, in closing let me say that your weekly columns are
absolutely terrific and I hope your new year finds you prosperous
and photographically blessed!
Todd Walker started a pretty funny thread elsewhere...he took
offense at being "insulted" by MR! I thought that was pretty rich,
considering what's been said of MR here. He's been called blind,
bribed, useless, all sorts of nasty things...then when he defends
himself he's accused of being insulting. Heh.

Heck, they're just cameras. The pictures most of us take will never
amount to a hill of beans in this world. We do this because it's
satisfying and interesting, and, hopefully, fun too.

--Mike
http://www.37thframe.com

NEW Links page!
 

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