When is one ready for DSLR?

mdebrieder · Dec 23, 2003

Hello Canon Forum,

I've been lurking a lot on the Sony forum because I have a V1 and am interested in the F828, but doubts have entered my mind.... I'm posting this in this forum, because the 10D seems attractive to me.
I have some question that I hope you people are willing to answer:

1) how do you "know" you are ready to start using DSLR (it's a big step from P&S)?

2) Sony offers gadgets, while DSLR offers top-quality excellent photo's.. What made you decide to choose DSLR above other equipment?

3) How would you describe the learning curve for the use of DSLR if you have very little experience with SLR?

Those seem to be my main questions at the moment. Thanks for taking your time to read and maybe give some answers!
--

Michiel de Brieder -

http://www.pbase.com/giel
The photographer opens your eyes, seeing must be done by yourself

David Scheffler · Dec 23, 2003

mdebrieder said:
1) how do you "know" you are ready to start using DSLR (it's a big
step from P&S)?

1. I knew I was ready when I felt as if my P&S was hurting my images. The flexibility offered by an SLR was my only alternative... and digital came to me not only because it fits my interests but the cost per picture in the long run makes it much cheaper than film. I think you are "ready" when you are willing to invest around $2,000 in a camera and hours upon hours (or should I say years) into learning how to use it effectively.

mdebrieder said:
2) Sony offers gadgets, while DSLR offers top-quality excellent
photo's.. What made you decide to choose DSLR above other equipment?

2. A DSLR offers as you said flexibility of an SLR plus it comes out cheaper than film alternatives (as I previously stated). I chose Canon over others after months of reading through reviews, listening to people on sites like this, and playing with all the cameras I could get my hands on.

mdebrieder said:
3) How would you describe the learning curve for the use of DSLR
if you have very little experience with SLR?

I would describe it as a challenge. It is difficult to pickup from in the beginning but it is very doable. Invest the time and you will reap the rewards. One book that helped me out was National Geographics Photo Guide (I think that is the name... I will pull it up later to check... but that is my guess at the moment). Be willing to read and do some homework and just like school, you will succeed.

Good luck with your purchase!!!

--
David
San Antonio area - TX
http://www.atvoutdoors.net (my other hobby)

Forrest41926 · Dec 23, 2003

mdebrieder said:
1) how do you "know" you are ready to start using DSLR (it's a big
step from P&S)?

When you have the money and the desire for one...? Seiously, it's not an exclusive club, or enlightenment; it's one type of tool instead of another. If you're feeling limited by the capibilities or quality P&S type digicams give you, then a step up makes sense.

mdebrieder said:
2) Sony offers gadgets, while DSLR offers top-quality excellent
photo's.. What made you decide to choose DSLR above other equipment?

The image quality ( you said it ), and being able to focus quickly, use ISO speeds above 100, and get my shot.

mdebrieder said:
3) How would you describe the learning curve for the use of DSLR
if you have very little experience with SLR?

Depends how much experience you've had with photography. Do you understand apertures and exposure and DOF and so on? These things hold true, no matter what type of camera you use. They seem different, because the dSLR will have narrower DOF at any given magnification, but the same rules apply.

Now, I'm going to post a couple sample pictures from the digicam I stepped up from, and a couple from my D60. These are heavily downsampled, so we're not comparing pixel quality here. We're comparing what I was able to capture, with enough quality that I felt comfortable posting these.

Olympus C-2100 UZ:

Canon D60:

Sheila Smart · Dec 23, 2003

Hi Michiel

I guess you will find that most folk who have bought a dSLR do so because they are previous SLR owners. But that said, this should certainly not deter you from buying one. It will certainly be a learning curve but after experimenting with your new 10D or whatever you choose, shootiing hundreds of images, and putting them up in forums such as these for critique (gulp!!), you will wonder why you didn't buy one earlier. It should be said that its not necessarily the case that shooting with a dSLR will automatically give you a superb image but it will give you the ability to use different apertures, shooting speeds and differing ISO. But, please remember that buying a dSLR body is just the start of your expense as within weeks, you will be looking at better lenses and even better lenses (I know of which I speak!). For many years I used both Nikon and Canon non-dSLR but my introduction to digital started with a little Canon Ixus, which was then followed by a G2 (for four months) and now my present, camera, the Canon D60. And a lot of lenses later....

Cheers
Sheila
Sheila Smart
http://www.pbase.com/sheila

One crowded hour of glorious life is worth an age without a name - Thomas Osbert Mordaunt

Juli Valley · Dec 23, 2003

If you miss shots because of shutter lag and hate noisy images at higher ISOs, you are a candidate. Just keep in mind that you are going to want several lenses and a flash. Keep in mind that the DOF is different. While 5.6 is pretty deep with smaller sensors, it's not that deep with the 10D or 300D. You will need f 8, 11, 16 for a lot of DOF.

mdebrieder · Dec 23, 2003

For your fast reply and your thoughts upon my questions. I think that the first argument is a real biggy

especially considering the fact I live in europe where camera's are significantly way more expensive than in the USA.. Time and money then, it is do-able

considering I have to post process shots now with my V1

Thanks again for your time and input!
Michiel

David Scheffler said:
David Scheffler said:

1) how do you "know" you are ready to start using DSLR (it's a big
step from P&S)?

Click to expand...

1. I knew I was ready when I felt as if my P&S was hurting my
images. The flexibility offered by an SLR was my only
alternative... and digital came to me not only because it fits my
interests but the cost per picture in the long run makes it much
cheaper than film. I think you are "ready" when you are willing to
invest around $2,000 in a camera and hours upon hours (or should I
say years) into learning how to use it effectively.

David Scheffler said:

2) Sony offers gadgets, while DSLR offers top-quality excellent
photo's.. What made you decide to choose DSLR above other equipment?

Click to expand...

2. A DSLR offers as you said flexibility of an SLR plus it comes
out cheaper than film alternatives (as I previously stated). I
chose Canon over others after months of reading through reviews,
listening to people on sites like this, and playing with all the
cameras I could get my hands on.

David Scheffler said:

3) How would you describe the learning curve for the use of DSLR
if you have very little experience with SLR?

Click to expand...

I would describe it as a challenge. It is difficult to pickup from
in the beginning but it is very doable. Invest the time and you
will reap the rewards. One book that helped me out was National
Geographics Photo Guide (I think that is the name... I will pull it
up later to check... but that is my guess at the moment). Be
willing to read and do some homework and just like school, you will
succeed.

Good luck with your purchase!!!

--
David
San Antonio area - TX
http://www.atvoutdoors.net (my other hobby)

--

Michiel de Brieder -

http://www.pbase.com/giel
The photographer opens your eyes, seeing must be done by yourself

Juli Valley · Dec 23, 2003

Images from the dSLR will need more postprocessing right out of the camera than the Sony.

mdebrieder · Dec 23, 2003

those are some really nice photo's you have there, the DSLR photo's indeed seem to be really fast instantanious captures (although the pond photo is also VERY good IMHO)

Thank you for your insight on this matter.. As for aperture, DOF and exposure, I am already a bit familiar with that, because I set my current camera always manually.. but I've read that settings on my V1 and settings on a DSLR don't really compare to each other, so that'll be learning and learning for better settings

that should be fun! It almost seems now that it comes down to money.. oh well, I'm very interested already, let's rack my brains some more weeks

Thanks again for your input!
--

Michiel de Brieder -

http://www.pbase.com/giel
The photographer opens your eyes, seeing must be done by yourself

leiavoia · Dec 23, 2003

mdebrieder said:
1) how do you "know" you are ready to start using DSLR (it's a big
step from P&S)?

well, my photographic beginngs where on film SLRs. I bought a Sony CD300 Mavica a few years back when they were brand new. I figured out very quickly that what i REALLY wanted was a DSLR. Of course, at the time, the cheapest DSLR on the market was AT LEAST $3000. That's with no lenses!

As for you , you know you are ready for an SLR if the "user-friendliness" of your P&S is wearing off and you often find that it even gets in the way. If you crave control and want more out of a camera than snap shots, it's SLR time.

mdebrieder said:
2) Sony offers gadgets, while DSLR offers top-quality excellent
photo's.. What made you decide to choose DSLR above other equipment?

My Mavica had video, and audio tagging, and all that garbage too. I never used them. Ever! I'm a still photographer. Always have been, always will be. I'm concerned about the image, not the novaltties.

mdebrieder said:
3) How would you describe the learning curve for the use of DSLR
if you have very little experience with SLR?

Um, well, to learn an SLR, you need to learn some basic photographic physics (best advice - get a book). It doesn't take much to get the raw basics down. It does take time to learn the ins and outs of more advanced tickets like studio lighting, long exposures, etc.

The P&S does everything an SLR does physically, it's just that you now control the physics instead of letting the camera do it for you. The 300D has full-auto mode for the unwary. Once you get your feet wet with that (the sooner the better, it's not very good), you can tackel the more manual modes.

Don't buy an SLR unless you want the control it provides. Just like a have a car with automatic. I'd never buy a stick. I don't care about sticks, i don't need a stick, i just want to get to work and back and not think about all that other stuff, even if manual will get me around 10% more efficiently or whatever.

lev

mdebrieder · Dec 23, 2003

Thanks for your input, that was something I picked up already.. that money will be flowing into lenses over time

Suppose I'd buy a 10D.. do you have a recommendation for a first lense? I'm now used to my V1 and I find the range to be okay... for the time being (it has a 4x optical zoom)
Thanks again for your input!
Michiel

Sheila Smart said:
Hi Michiel

I guess you will find that most folk who have bought a dSLR do so
because they are previous SLR owners. But that said, this should
certainly not deter you from buying one. It will certainly be a
learning curve but after experimenting with your new 10D or
whatever you choose, shootiing hundreds of images, and putting them
up in forums such as these for critique (gulp!!), you will wonder
why you didn't buy one earlier. It should be said that its not
necessarily the case that shooting with a dSLR will automatically
give you a superb image but it will give you the ability to use
different apertures, shooting speeds and differing ISO. But,
please remember that buying a dSLR body is just the start of your
expense as within weeks, you will be looking at better lenses and
even better lenses (I know of which I speak!). For many years I
used both Nikon and Canon non-dSLR but my introduction to digital
started with a little Canon Ixus, which was then followed by a G2
(for four months) and now my present, camera, the Canon D60. And a
lot of lenses later....

Cheers
Sheila
Sheila Smart
http://www.pbase.com/sheila

One crowded hour of glorious life is worth an age without a name -
Thomas Osbert Mordaunt

--

Michiel de Brieder -

http://www.pbase.com/giel
The photographer opens your eyes, seeing must be done by yourself

mdebrieder · Dec 23, 2003

indeed, that's something to consider, but that might be solved with higher ISO right (I mean compensating the shutter speed because of the f stop, and then recompensating the shutter speed with your ISO settings)?

I like nightshots, and do not always carry a tripod, so higher ISO settings are on my wanted list....
Thanks again for your insights!
Michiel

Juli Valley said:
If you miss shots because of shutter lag and hate noisy images at
higher ISOs, you are a candidate. Just keep in mind that you are
going to want several lenses and a flash. Keep in mind that the
DOF is different. While 5.6 is pretty deep with smaller sensors,
it's not that deep with the 10D or 300D. You will need f 8, 11, 16
for a lot of DOF.

--

Michiel de Brieder -

http://www.pbase.com/giel
The photographer opens your eyes, seeing must be done by yourself

wmcdowell · Dec 23, 2003

mdebrieder said:
1) how do you "know" you are ready to start using DSLR (it's a big
step from P&S)?

hi, for me it was when i wanted more control of the process. with dslr you have a much expanded control over manual settings, over a simple p&s cam, and more still then the sony 7xx series. i don't know about the 828. plus, a much more shallow depth of field with the dslr really opens up the creativity. big diff!

mdebrieder said:
2) Sony offers gadgets, while DSLR offers top-quality excellent
photo's.. What made you decide to choose DSLR above other equipment?

quality....and design, and much more flexibility for expansion. tons of options for any type of photography you can think of. as big as your wallet and creativity will allow.

mdebrieder said:
3) How would you describe the learning curve for the use of DSLR
if you have very little experience with SLR?

the 10d has very good full auto features to begin with, plus program modes. so you can take good shots right away. the hugh plus for dslr is that you can go so much further, which for me keeps the interest growing instead of just setting back taking snap shots.

it is as simple as you want it to be...just like any p&s, no big diff. learning about lenses and stuff will come in time, when you need it. and to begin shooting in raw and using software to process the pics is straight forward once you learn the vocabulary.

one other thing i saw a lot of when p&s users moved into the 10d. they expected things like shutter speeds to be equal to a p&s in any circumstance. i think what they missed is that shutter speeds are very dependent on the lens you have. like the 707 lens might be rated as an f2 or something a new user will have an inexpensive lens on the 10d that is an f4 or above. so thay get frustrated with blurry pics and a darker viewfinder. the up side for the 10d you can get really clean images (if exposed properlly) up to 1600 iso, and 3200 is usable. the other cool thing is you have the flexibility to change this.

mdebrieder said:
Those seem to be my main questions at the moment. Thanks for taking
your time to read and maybe give some answers!

good luck

wm

mdebrieder · Dec 23, 2003

That seems to fit me, sort of... Currently I never trust the auto mode on my V1, and I select everything (except Focus) manually.. does that give me a lot of advantage when stepping into DSLR?

It seems that a big part of DSLR photography is money

an expensive body.. loads of lenses to choose from

it's all very exciting! I thank you for your insights that have drawn me a bit further into DSLR choosing, now to rack my brains for some more weeks

Michiel
--

Michiel de Brieder -

http://www.pbase.com/giel
The photographer opens your eyes, seeing must be done by yourself

mdebrieder · Dec 23, 2003

for your input!

I have a queation though. How would you describe the difference in level of control between a DSLR and an F series sony? (Besides more control of the DOF)
Thank you for your time and input!
Michiel

wmcdowell said:
wmcdowell said:

1) how do you "know" you are ready to start using DSLR (it's a big
step from P&S)?

Click to expand...

hi, for me it was when i wanted more control of the process. with
dslr you have a much expanded control over manual settings, over a
simple p&s cam, and more still then the sony 7xx series. i don't
know about the 828. plus, a much more shallow depth of field with
the dslr really opens up the creativity. big diff!

wmcdowell said:

2) Sony offers gadgets, while DSLR offers top-quality excellent
photo's.. What made you decide to choose DSLR above other equipment?

Click to expand...

quality....and design, and much more flexibility for expansion.
tons of options for any type of photography you can think of. as
big as your wallet and creativity will allow.

wmcdowell said:

3) How would you describe the learning curve for the use of DSLR
if you have very little experience with SLR?

Click to expand...

the 10d has very good full auto features to begin with, plus
program modes. so you can take good shots right away. the hugh
plus for dslr is that you can go so much further, which for me
keeps the interest growing instead of just setting back taking snap
shots.

it is as simple as you want it to be...just like any p&s, no big
diff. learning about lenses and stuff will come in time, when you
need it. and to begin shooting in raw and using software to
process the pics is straight forward once you learn the vocabulary.

one other thing i saw a lot of when p&s users moved into the 10d.
they expected things like shutter speeds to be equal to a p&s in
any circumstance. i think what they missed is that shutter speeds
are very dependent on the lens you have. like the 707 lens might
be rated as an f2 or something a new user will have an inexpensive
lens on the 10d that is an f4 or above. so thay get frustrated
with blurry pics and a darker viewfinder. the up side for the 10d
you can get really clean images (if exposed properlly) up to 1600
iso, and 3200 is usable. the other cool thing is you have the
flexibility to change this.

wmcdowell said:

Those seem to be my main questions at the moment. Thanks for taking
your time to read and maybe give some answers!

Click to expand...

good luck

wm

--

Michiel de Brieder -

http://www.pbase.com/giel
The photographer opens your eyes, seeing must be done by yourself

RBray · Dec 23, 2003

You already know you want a SLR. P&S digicams drive me nuts now because of shutter lab and lack of flexibility.

But I started the dSLR market by purchasing a used D30 with a 50mm 1.8 back in 2002 when the D60 was scarce to buy. It is a fantastic camera that produces wonderful photos. I was able to practice with all the things you need to do and got a great idea of shutter speeds, DOF, etc.

I upgraded to the 10D because of the faster focus and higher pixels, but I loved the D30. It is well supported post-processing-wise (see Pekka's stuff at http://photography-on-the.net/D30/linear/ ) and easy to use.

The only thing you need to consider when going SLR is that you are buying into the system, not just the camera. I choose Canon because of cost, availability, and better lens line (IMO), but there are Nikon digital fans too that are passionate and produce fantastic pictures too. It truely is what deal comes your way (mine was a great used price for a D30).

Saying that, a used D30 (or D60 for that matter) makes you purchase EF mounts that will fit future (it better :]) Canon digital SLR's. I don't see myself upgrading from my 10D within the next 5 years, but you may want to depending on your wants.

To me, cost will always be an issue, so the only thing I bought new in my bag is the 10D, a cable release, and a Sigma 28-70 2.8 EX. Everything else is used. I'm a big fan of the used market.

--
Pleased 10D owner
'Never give up hope, Quantum Tunneling exists!'

mdebrieder · Dec 23, 2003

Thanks RBray,

I'll go check into that!! It seems wise to do, and, as you say, when I can get lenses for a D30, they'll work with a 10D also

I'll look into Nikkon too (it's just the photo's I've seen from Canon stuff that made me come here

)
Thanks for your input!!
Michiel

RBray said:
You already know you want a SLR. P&S digicams drive me nuts now
because of shutter lab and lack of flexibility.

But I started the dSLR market by purchasing a used D30 with a 50mm
1.8 back in 2002 when the D60 was scarce to buy. It is a fantastic
camera that produces wonderful photos. I was able to practice with
all the things you need to do and got a great idea of shutter
speeds, DOF, etc.

I upgraded to the 10D because of the faster focus and higher
pixels, but I loved the D30. It is well supported
post-processing-wise (see Pekka's stuff at
http://photography-on-the.net/D30/linear/ ) and easy to use.

The only thing you need to consider when going SLR is that you are
buying into the system, not just the camera. I choose Canon
because of cost, availability, and better lens line (IMO), but
there are Nikon digital fans too that are passionate and produce
fantastic pictures too. It truely is what deal comes your way
(mine was a great used price for a D30).

Saying that, a used D30 (or D60 for that matter) makes you purchase
EF mounts that will fit future (it better :]) Canon digital SLR's.
I don't see myself upgrading from my 10D within the next 5 years,
but you may want to depending on your wants.

To me, cost will always be an issue, so the only thing I bought new
in my bag is the 10D, a cable release, and a Sigma 28-70 2.8 EX.
Everything else is used. I'm a big fan of the used market.

--
Pleased 10D owner
'Never give up hope, Quantum Tunneling exists!'

--

Michiel de Brieder -

http://www.pbase.com/giel
The photographer opens your eyes, seeing must be done by yourself

RBray · Dec 23, 2003

There really isn't much on the used market for Nikon digital. They had some real expensive in their day (so did Canon) but I wouldn't buy anything used other than D30/60 or a used Nikon D100.

mdebrieder said:
RBray said:

You already know you want a SLR. P&S digicams drive me nuts now
because of shutter lab and lack of flexibility.

But I started the dSLR market by purchasing a used D30 with a 50mm
1.8 back in 2002 when the D60 was scarce to buy. It is a fantastic
camera that produces wonderful photos. I was able to practice with
all the things you need to do and got a great idea of shutter
speeds, DOF, etc.

I upgraded to the 10D because of the faster focus and higher
pixels, but I loved the D30. It is well supported
post-processing-wise (see Pekka's stuff at
http://photography-on-the.net/D30/linear/ ) and easy to use.

The only thing you need to consider when going SLR is that you are
buying into the system, not just the camera. I choose Canon
because of cost, availability, and better lens line (IMO), but
there are Nikon digital fans too that are passionate and produce
fantastic pictures too. It truely is what deal comes your way
(mine was a great used price for a D30).

Saying that, a used D30 (or D60 for that matter) makes you purchase
EF mounts that will fit future (it better :]) Canon digital SLR's.
I don't see myself upgrading from my 10D within the next 5 years,
but you may want to depending on your wants.

To me, cost will always be an issue, so the only thing I bought new
in my bag is the 10D, a cable release, and a Sigma 28-70 2.8 EX.
Everything else is used. I'm a big fan of the used market.

--
Pleased 10D owner
'Never give up hope, Quantum Tunneling exists!'

Click to expand...

--

Michiel de Brieder -

http://www.pbase.com/giel
The photographer opens your eyes, seeing must be done by yourself

--
Pleased 10D owner
'Never give up hope, Quantum Tunneling exists!'

softtower · Dec 23, 2003

If you get a new 10D you will need to spend extra $$ to approach F828's excellent glass. Good optics for dSLRs costs much much more because dSLR lenses produce a much bigger image circle, than those lenses used in "prosumer" cameras like F828.

To avoid spending that much money I would recommend you to get a used D30. They go for about $600 on ebay these days. Add to that 17-40mm f4L ($700) and 85mm f1.8 ($300) for low light and extra reach, and you'll have a very serious system, it will still be more expensive as Sony, but:

it will have an image quality unthinkable of achieving with F828, despite 3mp vs 8.
it will be $600-700 less expensive than 10D-based system.

If you are not a wide angle fan, you can go with 28-135mm IS instead of those two lenses, and save yourself LOTS of money: you'll be under $1K for the entire combo. I jsut tried to match F828's zoom range.

--
Eugueny

softtower · Dec 23, 2003

softtower said:
If you get a new 10D you will need to spend extra $$ to approach
F828's excellent glass. Good optics for dSLRs costs much much more
because dSLR lenses produce a much bigger image circle, than those
lenses used in "prosumer" cameras like F828.

To avoid spending that much money I would recommend you to get a
used D30. They go for about $600 on ebay these days. Add to that
17-40mm f4L ($700) and 85mm f1.8 ($300) for low light and extra
reach, and you'll have a very serious system, it will still be more
expensive as Sony, but:

it will have an image quality unthinkable of achieving with F828,

despite 3mp vs 8.

it will be $600-700 less expensive than 10D-based system.

If you are not a wide angle fan, you can go with 28-135mm IS
instead of those two lenses, and save yourself LOTS of money:
you'll be under $1K for the entire combo. I jsut tried to match
F828's zoom range.

--
Eugueny

--
Eugueny

Sheila Smart · Dec 23, 2003

mdebrieder said:
Thanks for your input, that was something I picked up already..
that money will be flowing into lenses over time
Suppose I'd buy a 10D.. do you have a recommendation for a first
lense? I'm now used to my V1 and I find the range to be okay... for
the time being (it has a 4x optical zoom)
Thanks again for your input!
Michiel
a

A fairly good (and inexpensive) walkabout lens is the 28-105 which will serve you well until you feel you need both more reach and better lenses. For telephoto, you certainly should look at the 70-200 f/4 L which is one of the sharpest and inexpensive (for "L" lenses) that Canon makes. Take care in your choices of lenses as my motto is "if you buy cheap, you buy twice". I am speaking from experience here! Although the 28-105 is "cheap" (in comparison to the 28-135), it is still a good, contrasty piece of glass. I have a mixture of both primes (single focal length such as 35 f/2, 50 mm f/1.8 and my superb 300 f/4 L) and zooms (said 28-105 and the 20-35 which I am looking to replace for the 17-40 L). I suggest you check the Review section of this site and also check out Fred Miranda's reviews ( http://www.fredmiranda.com ).

Good luck.
Cheers
Sheila
Sheila Smart
http://www.pbase.com/sheila

One crowded hour of glorious life is worth an age without a name - Thomas Osbert Mordaunt

When is one ready for DSLR?

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