D2H is out, what is canon going to do?

Stefan Klein · Dec 22, 2003

Would be nice.And I guess after 5 years of development (since 1V), it should be possible.

Stefan

DavidP said:
77 pts.

The red squares are cross-type, high-precision.

The blue circles are cross-type, normal-precision.

The green stars/plusses (non-user selectable) are alternating
horizontal/vertical types, normal-precision.

Stefan Klein said:

More x-type sensors would be great and a bigger AF area with maybe
60 or 70 sensors.

Click to expand...

--
http://www.outboundmusic.com
Your link to independent music!

Bernie Ess · Dec 22, 2003

DavidP said:
It doesn't. And nobody's ever claimed it does. Nor has anybody
ever believed it does.

Well, good for you if you did not. But if you follow the brand wars on both sides, you can easily see that people generally attach too much attention to brands and cameras. When you furthermore look at all those photos posted on dpreview, you may agree with me that many (not all there are nice exceptions) could have been done with much more modest equipment.

By the way true professionals (I am not a pro) generally know these things, its the amateurs who desperately try to constantly improove their equipment instead of their skills (which might be hard work). And if you never noticed this tendency, you must have read the forums and Newsgroups of the internet with closed eyes...

regards Bernie

Ermac · Dec 22, 2003

salim madjd said:
Now that D2H is really out, what do you think canon is going to do?

1, wait until Feb?
2, leak the info on 1D-r, to stop the customers on the fence?

3,???
--
Salim
http://www.pbase.com/salim

Who cares and why should they? (I see this is a hot topic, which means it's probably also a flame war.)

Unless one is getting free stuff from one or the other, brand loyalty is for obsessive compulsive toy collectors.

pnorbo · Dec 24, 2003

anyone on the fence right now is a fool! What the darkside has a 2dh that is slightly better than the 1d but the 1d is 2 years old!

salim madjd said:
Now that D2H is really out, what do you think canon is going to do?

1, wait until Feb?
2, leak the info on 1D-r, to stop the customers on the fence?

3,???
--
Salim
http://www.pbase.com/salim

pnorbo · Dec 24, 2003

Todays news photos are better than yesterdays!
Though I am not sure what "price winning photos" are Id bet they are better.

It is tuff to MF a tele with fast action...no way a person could get better shots MFing it than with top of the line AF.

I do agree that manual exposure is better sometimes than AE in both color and B&W even today!

Having shot bricks of Kodachromes (and even had pushed it) todays colour kills the old E-6 film.
I love digi and never ever want to go back!!!!!

I do agree that every camera is just a tool and what matters is the person tripping the button. But thats really a moot point

PerL said:
If you look at todays price winning photos and compare them to
winning photos from the 60s or 70s, are you really sure the photos
are better today? I dont think so.
For B&W shooting (a must in the press those days), manual exposure
is actually better than AE. Manual focus is no problem either, for
news you often used WA with large DOF, its not a big problem to MF
tele lenses either.
As for landscapes, are todays DSLRs really giving better results
than old Nikons or Canons with Kodachrome?

Bernard Languillier · Dec 25, 2003

My personnal take at what could help us taking better landscape pics would be:

learn to open the eyes wider so as to catch more light,
get up earlier,
buy a very good tripod (Gitzo 1227) with a very good head (Arca Swiss or Acratech) and very good plates (RRS obviously),
learn how to speak with the wind,
get fit so as to be able to walk farther and bend the knees lower,

and perhaps get a better camera with better pixels.

Best regards,
Bernard

Bernie Ess said:
DavidP said:

It doesn't. And nobody's ever claimed it does. Nor has anybody
ever believed it does.

Click to expand...

Well, good for you if you did not. But if you follow the brand wars
on both sides, you can easily see that people generally attach too
much attention to brands and cameras. When you furthermore look at
all those photos posted on dpreview, you may agree with me that
many (not all there are nice exceptions) could have been done with
much more modest equipment.

By the way true professionals (I am not a pro) generally know these
things, its the amateurs who desperately try to constantly improove
their equipment instead of their skills (which might be hard work).
And if you never noticed this tendency, you must have read the
forums and Newsgroups of the internet with closed eyes...

regards Bernie

David Martin · Dec 25, 2003

Bernie Ess said:
.... its the guy behind who has to do it.

On http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-03-21-12.shtml
there is a nice new article by Mike Johnston, basically it says
that those who most scream for more Megapixels and fight harder to
defend "their" brand, have the least to show in terms of good
photos.
Just think of those countless house and garden shots, pets, flowers
etc. Those guys better should not mention that they used a 4k pro
camera for it.

Who cares if the D2H is "better" or the Canon "1D" - or what camera
blows what other one "out of the water"? If you dont manage to get
some great photos done with whatever DSLR available today, the next
model won't save you and you should change your hobby.

Its not the cam, its the guy behind. Photography is a skill, not a
machine performing.

regards, Bernie

....a discussion of the technology of cameras on a technical forum wouldn't be half so much fun if we didn't consider the technology!
And comparison may be invidious, but it's the only game in town.
Of course we are interested in comparing and discussing cameras!

That's not to say that it's all down to the camera, 'cos it ain't, but it's not only interesting, it's also fun!
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

Michael Ray White · Dec 25, 2003

What do you mean "slightly better?" I'm looking at all the reviews and image comparisons and I see a very grainy D2H image compared to the 1D. I do believe Nikon has a better flash system, so I would call it a wash. Take a look at the images here: http://www.outbackphoto.com/reviews/equipment/nikon_d2h/nikon_d2h_review.html

pnorbo said:
salim madjd said:

Now that D2H is really out, what do you think canon is going to do?

1, wait until Feb?
2, leak the info on 1D-r, to stop the customers on the fence?

3,???
--
Salim
http://www.pbase.com/salim

Click to expand...

Mark Keller · Dec 25, 2003

To blundtly answer your question as to what is Canon going to do???

Laugh, then push their product's technological gap between themselves and their competitors from 2 years to 5 years......

Why someone would buy the D2H is beyond me.

The new 1D whatever, will be spectacular, just wait and see.

Mark

Michael Ray White said:
Michael Ray White said:

anyone on the fence right now is a fool! What the darkside has a
2dh that is slightly better than the 1d but the 1d is 2 years old!

salim madjd said:

Now that D2H is really out, what do you think canon is going to do?

1, wait until Feb?
2, leak the info on 1D-r, to stop the customers on the fence?

3,???
--
Salim
http://www.pbase.com/salim

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Gavin Cato · Dec 25, 2003

Mark Keller said:
Why someone would buy the D2H is beyond me.

Gosh, gotta love those Canonites with their one eyed view

Steven Noyes · Dec 25, 2003

Gavin Cato said:
Gavin Cato said:

Why someone would buy the D2H is beyond me.

Click to expand...

Gosh, gotta love those Canonites with their one eyed view

--
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Mike Delaney · Dec 26, 2003

salim madjd said:
Now that D2H is really out, what do you think canon is going to do?

Laugh all the way to the bank, after their new one is released, and sit back and watch all of the "jumpers" jump back. Can't wait to see the expression on the faces of some folks I know who run to that new Nikon, when they get the news!!
--
Mike D
http://www.pbase.com/miked

Nill Toulme · Dec 26, 2003

Bring on the 200-400 f/4L IS, whether in DO flavor or not.

Nill
~~
http://www.toulme.net

Stefan Schott said:
...as a matter of fact I would very much like to be able to feed my
1D with something as useful as the AF-S 4.0/200-400 VR Nikkor.

Stefan Schott · Dec 26, 2003

Nill Toulme said:
Bring on the 200-400 f/4L IS, whether in DO flavor or not.

Yes please. I'd actually prefer this one over a (revised) Sigma 120-300. Surely Canon don't want to be out-done by Nikon in the telezoom dept.? Who else thinks we'll be seeing such a lens from Canon in the not-so-distant future?

Ciao
Stefan

--

»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of Canon, Inc.

Stefan Schott · Dec 26, 2003

Bernard Languillier said:
get up earlier,

get fit so as to be able to walk farther and bend the knees lower,

That is actually great advice for anyone who wants to excel in landscape photography. Not sure if I understand your "talk to the wind" metaphor, if you mean "learn how to predict weather changes", you are right on.

Ciao
Stefan

--

»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of Canon, Inc.

Bernard Languillier · Dec 27, 2003

Hello Stefan,

Thanks for the nice words.

Don't really know what I meant with "talk to the wind"

I guess that it covers different aspects:

indeed, as you rightly mentioned, be able to predict the weather changes,
more generally, feel how a site works in terms of relationship between the weather and the vegetation (orientation of the trees maching the movement of the clouds...),
also get a feel for the time of the year/time of the day at which a site might offer interesting variations in terms of colors (light, sky, trees...), presence/absence of snow, presence/absence of fog...

I guess that this is pretty obvious for somebody who does landsapce like you.

Time to go to bed now, have to get up at 4 AM tomorrow to go for a backcountry ski tour in Tohoku area, North of Tokyo. Hope that the wind will allow for some intersting shooting

Best regards,
Bernard

Stefan Schott said:
Bernard Languillier said:

get up earlier,

get fit so as to be able to walk farther and bend the knees lower,

Click to expand...

That is actually great advice for anyone who wants to excel in
landscape photography. Not sure if I understand your "talk to the
wind" metaphor, if you mean "learn how to predict weather changes",
you are right on.

Ciao
Stefan

--
»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert
surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of
Canon, Inc.

David Martin · Dec 27, 2003

salim madjd said:
Now that D2H is really out, what do you think canon is going to do?

1, wait until Feb?
2, leak the info on 1D-r, to stop the customers on the fence?

3,???
--
Salim
http://www.pbase.com/salim

I was interested in this thread over on the Nikon forum:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=7018155

It seems to me that the main weakness of the 2Dh is the high-ISO noise level, and the argument in this thread sounds reasonable to me.

Nikon are not experienced in NR techniques for CMOS based sensors( I understand LBCAST is a variant on CMOS) so it seems reasonable to me to expect considerable improvement with future firmware upgrades.

That's all good as far as I am concerned, gives Canon a more challenging target to shoot at!
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

Stefan Schott · Dec 27, 2003

Bernard Languillier said:
Time to go to bed now, have to get up at 4 AM tomorrow to go for a
backcountry ski tour in Tohoku area, North of Tokyo.

Excellent! The time I spent in Japan was very limited but I really want to go back there and have a better look around. I'm longing to visit Hokkaido in Winter to photograph the Swans, to name just one of many reasons. If only it wasn't such an expensive place to travel in...

Enjoy your ski trip and please post some pictures when you get back!

Greetings
Stefan

--

»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of Canon, Inc.

Steven Noyes · Dec 27, 2003

The premiss that Thom implies is that noise reduction is a function of software and not the basic hardware. I think he is somewhat mistaken on his. While here are things that can be done is software (firmware) it is important to START with a good signal. Many LBCAST people have made mention of the fewer number of transistors needed per photo-site on LBCAST than Canon's CMOS. The thing is that the extra transistors are part of the HARDWARE noise reduction.

Also, the 1D noise issues when first released were primarily solved with a rev of the hardware and not software.

Steven

David Martin said:
salim madjd wrote:
I was interested in this thread over on the Nikon forum:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=7018155
It seems to me that the main weakness of the 2Dh is the high-ISO
noise level, and the argument in this thread sounds reasonable to
me.
Nikon are not experienced in NR techniques for CMOS based sensors(
I understand LBCAST is a variant on CMOS) so it seems reasonable to
me to expect considerable improvement with future firmware upgrades.
That's all good as far as I am concerned, gives Canon a more
challenging target to shoot at!
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

--
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http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/animage_a_week_winter

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