D2H is out, what is canon going to do?

Stefan Schott · Dec 19, 2003

digislr said:
who said that "at this point, Nikon is out of the game"

Nobody did.

digislr said:
The fact

is AT THSI POINT, Canon is out of the game.

That's what you said, in your Nikon-distorted view of things. I understood you perfectly.

S.

--

»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of Canon, Inc.

Stefan Schott · Dec 19, 2003

digislr said:
but why would I pay $7k to downsample files?

Only to create a level playing field for noise comparison.

In the real world, you would have to upsample a D2h file to get a print of the same size as the 1Ds and that would blow the D2h's noise right through the roof. The per-megapixel-noise of the 1Ds is not worse but BETTER than the D2h, by a comfortable margin.

S.
--

»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of Canon, Inc.

digislr · Dec 19, 2003

Stefan Schott said:
digislr said:

who said that "at this point, Nikon is out of the game"

Click to expand...

You are right, whatr was said in this thread a few posts above wa sthis:

I totally agree. Too little too late. As far as I see it Nikon is out of the game. Canon is the undisputed king of professional DSLR's. Let's see if the rumored FUJI S3 gives Canon some much needed competition.

-koolkat

Stefan Schott said:
Nobody did.

Stefan Schott said:

The fact

is AT THSI POINT, Canon is out of the game.

Click to expand...

That's what you said, in your Nikon-distorted view of things. I
understood you perfectly.

S.

--
»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert
surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of
Canon, Inc.

digislr · Dec 19, 2003

But still, my 20X30 prints from the d2h look better than my 1ds 20X30's in every way. Especially color.

Stefan Schott said:
digislr said:

but why would I pay $7k to downsample files?

Click to expand...

Only to create a level playing field for noise comparison.
In the real world, you would have to upsample a D2h file to get a
print of the same size as the 1Ds and that would blow the D2h's
noise right through the roof. The per-megapixel-noise of the 1Ds is
not worse but BETTER than the D2h, by a comfortable margin.

S.
--
»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert
surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of
Canon, Inc.

Lecter · Dec 19, 2003

I think they'll just continue on.

the D2H is a great camera for sure. Albeit a noisy one.

Not many people buying these kind of cameras are "on the fence" as they're usually already well entrenched one way or another. What I believe this doesn't do, is attract "over" the fence, which the 1D and 1Ds have done in droves.

I am personally glad the D2H is out. It's caught up to the dinosaur (as others have pointed out) and will, in a next iteration, perhaps change the playing field enough to get the prices down a bit.

I had a moron E1 sales twart the other day telling me the E1 makes better pictures than a 1Ds.... weird. I've heard it here about the 1Ds and the D2H... weirder... although on occassion, I will admit, my 1D takes a nicer picture than my 1Ds.... it has happened... usually in the hands of my girlfriend.......

Rob

salim madjd said:
Now that D2H is really out, what do you think canon is going to do?

1, wait until Feb?
2, leak the info on 1D-r, to stop the customers on the fence?

3,???
--
Salim
http://www.pbase.com/salim

--
-------------------------------------
Off Topic ? ? ? Tell someone who cares.
Get a life!

digislr · Dec 19, 2003

I agree with you. Soon, prices will be at a reasonable level (well, my guess is within 3 years) and I also agree about the 1d. Ive seen 1d shots with better detail and color than many 1ds shots. Just becuase the 1ds is 11mp and $7k does not make it the best DSLR for everyone.

Lecter · Dec 19, 2003

I want friends with all sorts of cameras....

it's a boring world if there is only one....

(Like F1, like OS on computer, telephone companies)

lol

digislr said:
I agree with you. Soon, prices will be at a reasonable level (well,
my guess is within 3 years) and I also agree about the 1d. Ive seen
1d shots with better detail and color than many 1ds shots. Just
becuase the 1ds is 11mp and $7k does not make it the best DSLR for
everyone.

--
-------------------------------------
Off Topic ? ? ? Tell someone who cares.
Get a life!

Stefan Schott · Dec 19, 2003

digislr said:
But still, my 20X30 prints from the d2h look better than my 1ds
20X30's in every way.

Then your 1Ds is broken.

digislr said:
Especially color.

Well, if you like the pink-ish colors the Nikon offers.... Quote Phil Askey: "the D2H's rendition of yellow was very slightly orange (something you can also see on the color charts on earlier pages of this review). ... The D2H tends towards reds more, perhaps tuned for skin tones."

I would have expected Nikon to have learned from the mistakes re. color they made with the D1x (which I used to own) but apparently not.

S.

--

»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of Canon, Inc.

Stefan Schott · Dec 19, 2003

Lecter said:
I want friends with all sorts of cameras....

I don't. I was the last relic in my circle of ProPho colleagues to switch from Nikon to Canon. Now we ALL use Canons and that has proven to be tremendously beneficial. Just think about exchanging tips and tweaks, borrowing lenses to go with your bodies, borrowing a body to go with your lenses... get my drift?

Ciao
Stefan

--

»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of Canon, Inc.

Lecter · Dec 19, 2003

yes, understand...

but because I drive a Ferrari, I don't think Porsche drivers are tosser heads....

oops..

hang on, that's not right.... I do think that...

ok, watch this space for a better analogy...

lol

Stefan Schott said:
Lecter said:

I want friends with all sorts of cameras....

Click to expand...

I don't. I was the last relic in my circle of ProPho colleagues to
switch from Nikon to Canon. Now we ALL use Canons and that has
proven to be tremendously beneficial. Just think about exchanging
tips and tweaks, borrowing lenses to go with your bodies, borrowing
a body to go with your lenses... get my drift?

Ciao
Stefan

--
»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert
surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of
Canon, Inc.

--
-------------------------------------
Off Topic ? ? ? Tell someone who cares.
Get a life!

andrea buso · Dec 19, 2003

It was like that in the '80ies with nikon SRL until the first half of the '90ies.

Then Nikon slowed down and was catched up and surpassed by Canon and here we are...

If you think is beneficial because you can exchange tools that is great. That was the reason why, back in '83 i bought my first Nikon, But after years all my Nikon tool that i collected during that period became good for Ebay.

In my opinion there are enough photographers out there to maintain both the brands and keep up the competition.

Look at Apple, took them until '97 to do a serious major upgrade from the original OS made in '84. Maybe even worst, the first major upgrade was OSX.

In the mean time all MAC users including myself were paying a computer 3 times more than necessary.

I think out there there are enough Canon lenses to borrow or to lend, we do not need an only Canon field.

Stefan Schott said:
Lecter said:

I want friends with all sorts of cameras....

Click to expand...

I don't. I was the last relic in my circle of ProPho colleagues to
switch from Nikon to Canon. Now we ALL use Canons and that has
proven to be tremendously beneficial. Just think about exchanging
tips and tweaks, borrowing lenses to go with your bodies, borrowing
a body to go with your lenses... get my drift?

Ciao
Stefan

--
»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert
surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of
Canon, Inc.

--
Sorry for not putting the brand of my tripod, I normally do not use one....

digislr · Dec 19, 2003

Maybe phil didnt choose proper settings. My tones arenot pink, but my 10d and 1ds tones were way out of whack. I can spot a 10d or 1ds pic a mile away just from teh pasty skin tones on many pics, even those from pro glamour photographers. Its the CMOS chip that does it. Its not my cup of tea. But no "pink-ish" colors from my D2h.

Stefan Schott said:
digislr said:

But still, my 20X30 prints from the d2h look better than my 1ds
20X30's in every way.

Click to expand...

Then your 1Ds is broken.

Stefan Schott said:

Especially color.

Click to expand...

Well, if you like the pink-ish colors the Nikon offers.... Quote
Phil Askey: "the D2H's rendition of yellow was very slightly orange
(something you can also see on the color charts on earlier pages of
this review). ... The D2H tends towards reds more, perhaps tuned
for skin tones."
I would have expected Nikon to have learned from the mistakes re.
color they made with the D1x (which I used to own) but apparently
not.

S.

--
»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert
surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of
Canon, Inc.

digislr · Dec 19, 2003

Stefan Schott said:
Then your 1Ds is broken.

Both of them were? If so then Canon has some QC issues becuase both of them were great cameras, but something about the colors. I would get a green/yellow cast most of the time and skin tones were kind of dull and muddy. Pics were very soft and "mushy". I prefer the 1d look over the 1ds look. The 1ds is great if you need the resolution, but overall, I feel the more pleasing colors come from the 1d over the 1ds.

Stefan Schott said:
Stefan Schott said:

Especially color.

Click to expand...

Well, if you like the pink-ish colors the Nikon offers.... Quote
Phil Askey: "the D2H's rendition of yellow was very slightly orange
(something you can also see on the color charts on earlier pages of
this review). ... The D2H tends towards reds more, perhaps tuned
for skin tones."
I would have expected Nikon to have learned from the mistakes re.
color they made with the D1x (which I used to own) but apparently
not.

S.

--
»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert
surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of
Canon, Inc.

O.Olsson · Dec 20, 2003

When talk noise do they actually look at picture in same size or do they look an it in 100% PS.

If it like that the 1Ds will have to down size to get to the same size as the 1D or 10D and that will make the noise less. ( If you fill the frame in the same way ofcourse)
O.Olsson

Stefan Schott said:
digislr said:

Its
still better than the 1ds!

Click to expand...

Another fine example of a clueless Nikon owner. If you downsample a
1Ds frame to the tiny size of a D2h frame, the 1Ds will show a lot
less noise right up to its max. of ISO 1250. Try it.

S.

--
»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert
surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of
Canon, Inc.

--
O.Olsson

O.Olsson · Dec 20, 2003

not noise less.
Less noisier is what I ment.
O.Olsson

O.Olsson said:
Stefan Schott said:

digislr said:

Its
still better than the 1ds!

Click to expand...

Another fine example of a clueless Nikon owner. If you downsample a
1Ds frame to the tiny size of a D2h frame, the 1Ds will show a lot
less noise right up to its max. of ISO 1250. Try it.

S.

--
»We've experienced the fact that the perceptions of an expert
surpass the precision of measuring instruments.« Nakabayashi-san of
Canon, Inc.

Click to expand...

--
O.Olsson

--
O.Olsson

steve wilkes · Dec 20, 2003

no, I have never gone looking, but I thought he was hinting with that link......

salim madjd said:
Salim

steve wilkes said:

Paul Pope said:

We shall see in Feburary.......
--
Gallery at
http://www.dphoto.us/forumphotos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=73
'Stop it now or you will go blind'

Click to expand...

--

Steve
The 'truth' is never pure & seldom straightforward.
1Ds/10D/30e/RIP Minolta/ETRSI/5X4 & French Medium Format Camera
6x6, 6x9.
Some sarcasim included, may need assembly.

Click to expand...

--
Salim
http://www.pbase.com/salim

--

Steve
The 'truth' is never pure & seldom straightforward.
1Ds/10D/30e/RIP Minolta/ETRSI/5X4 & French Medium Format Camera 6x6, 6x9.
Some sarcasim included, may need assembly.

hyslopc · Dec 20, 2003

The 1D already has a better sensor than the D2H, and we all know that Canon will have an even better sensor for its replacement. Nikon have done a lot of things right with the D2H - it's a pity they stuffed up the sensor. I am hoping that:

1) The 1D replacement won't be worse than the 1D in any respects (eg X-Sync)

2) That canon will give up on the myth that every 1D owner has a 1V in their bag, and give us a new body designed from the ground up for digital

3) Li-On instead of Ni-MH. The 7 arctic photographers in the target market can use an external power supply.

4) More cross-type AF sensors, or even a brand-new AF system. The 1D is great, but there's still room for improvement.
5) Instant start-up.

6) Some sort of Auto-ISO capability - can't believe Nikon missed this one. How can they claim that the body is designed for digital from the ground-up, but only provide controls for two of the three shooting variables?

In short, I hope that Canon match the D2H in all areas, and adds Auto-ISO. I take for granted that they will significantly up the ante with the sensor.

Ian S · Dec 20, 2003

That would be great!

hyslopc wrote:
6) Some sort of Auto-ISO capability - can't believe Nikon missed

hyslopc said:
this one. How can they claim that the body is designed for digital
from the ground-up, but only provide controls for two of the three
shooting variables?

In short, I hope that Canon match the D2H in all areas, and adds
Auto-ISO. I take for granted that they will significantly up the
ante with the sensor.

--
Ian S
'The road to Hell is paved with good intentions'
http://www.mekongpicturehouse.com/Portfolio
http://www.rainpalm.com
http://www.mekongpicturehouse.com

Ian S · Dec 20, 2003

I posted this comment once before. Again no-one contradicts?

QED?

Ian S said:
The D2H is obviously a great camera, but entrenched 1D users are
not going to switch systems for a marginal improvement.

--
Ian S
'The road to Hell is paved with good intentions'
http://www.mekongpicturehouse.com/Portfolio
http://www.rainpalm.com
http://www.mekongpicturehouse.com

hyslopc · Dec 20, 2003

nt = no text

D2H is out, what is canon going to do?

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