my first 828 pixs

Ulysses · Dec 15, 2003

Yes, the inevitable tear-down has begun.

Note for RAG: I find that while everyone has a fairly outspoken opinion about a new camera, you'll find that you have some who are extremely jazzed about anything Sony, there are those who hope that the camera rots beneath the earth, and then there are those who see both good and bad and can still enjoy their photography. My recommendation is to gain encouragement from that latter group. They'll help you to find workarounds to problems, while excelling at using the good points --- if you want to keep the camera and get the most out of it.

So, don't get offended at anything you hear. And don't get swept up either, not until you are sure that this is the camera for you. Enjoy it each step of the way!

David_S85 said:
And... Very many thanks for posting your shots here. They are
quite the diversion for this afternoon, aren't they? We're picking
them apart (not your skills, just the 828, in general).

Have fun with your new purchase.

David

--

Ulysses

David Kieltyka · Dec 15, 2003

Hey, I own a Canon 10D, which--as everyone knows--kicks the 300D's ss. No plastic glorified point & shoot for me. ;-) ;-)

"Mine is bigger than yours" foolishness aside, I'm interested in the 828 as a more portable, compact companion to the 10D. I can see taking it on business trips (carry-on luggage bulk is a real issue these days) and using it for any occasion where an all-in-one camera would come in handy. The 10D is terrific but sometimes smaller is better. With the 828 I might even shoot some video footage. Noise and CA aren't the big deals they're often made out to be...I print my photos rather than stare at them on-screen at 100% res looking for artifacts. 11x14" prints I've made today from 828 shots look fine.

So don't worry about the 300D tyros. If any of 'em could actually take decent photographs they'd be out using their gear rather than trolling. 8^)

-Dave-

Justin Blethrow · Dec 15, 2003

Well true enough. We've had some who were totally against it with no data, and a lot who were totally pro-828 with no data either. I wouldn't want to be in either group; as a scientist I live on gathering as much data as possible and appraising it without letting my emotions or personal interests influence that process. I think that's the only way to go here too, ideally. As to the emotional 'anti' camp, I think they are a small but vocal minority. Much larger, I think, is the number of people who were very worried by the pre-pro stuff and have expressed some trepidation and are now dying to see what the bottom line looks like. I fall in that later group myself.

So far I've only seen one basher in this thread. I've seen several others who are unhappy with the first look, and are saying so in a measure tone.

It should be an interesting few days.

Ulysses said:
But as you and I know, we've had a certain block of folks that has
indeed been mean-spirited and that were already committed against
the camera before any samples --- pre-pro or otherwise --- were
ever seen.

Now that real samples are becoming available, we're seeing the
things that were predicted to be characteristics of the final
product.

Some things are doing better than expected (such as noise). Others,
at least in RAG's shots are a bit aggravating (the CA immediately
comes to mind). Different people will have sensitivities to
different problems, but we're also seeing a lot of unnecessary (but
expected) bashing.

Poor RAG and Jon. It's their first day, and they can barely enjoy
their camera!

Critique the camera and the issues ---- as well as the good points.
But recognize bashing for what it is, too.

The lovers and the haters. I suppose from a certain point of view
you need them both. Heheh....

Justin Blethrow said:

critical by definition. That is necessary. That doesn't mean it has
to be mean-spirited, that is a separate issue. A lot of people seem
to make he mistake of confusing scrutiny with disdain.

Click to expand...

--

Ulysses

--
http://www.pbase.com/jdb/root

Justin Blethrow · Dec 15, 2003

Hey Uly, I don't know what they're using, but I can tell you it's quite apparent on the two LCD monitors I use. I think it would show up less on a CRT.

Ulysses said:
Max Fun said:

I'm concerned about the anti-aliasing (or the lack of) in the
pictures, amongst other things. It is going to be a problem if you
blow it up I think (I think the other problem is clear enough)...

Here is a crop of what I mean:

Click to expand...

--

Ulysses

--
http://www.pbase.com/jdb/root

Mark Ransom · Dec 15, 2003

That you were colorblind?

Ulysses said:
What are you guys TALKING about? There is absolutely NO problem here.

Not in the plants, not on the chrome, not on the Post Office truck,
nowhere! ;-)

--

Ulysses

Ulysses · Dec 15, 2003

Justin Blethrow said:
Hey Uly, I don't know what they're using, but I can tell you it's
quite apparent on the two LCD monitors I use. I think it would show
up less on a CRT.

Exactly my point. I couldn't see it at all on my CRT monitor. I was working hard to TRY to see it, but I couldn't say that it was a problem at all.

I do see it more noticeably on my LCD monitor. Again, I don't know that it's a huge issue, nor am I seeing it in every shot. I'm wondering if it will show up in Phil's chart tests and perhaps not in many real-world tests.

We'll have to see....

--

Ulysses

David_S85 · Dec 15, 2003

It might not be that Ulysses is colorblind. But, remember, he did imply he was 62 years old, afterall. Can colors even be seen when you're 62?

David

Mark Ransom said:
Mark Ransom wrote:
That you were colorblind?

Ulysses said:

What are you guys TALKING about? There is absolutely NO problem

Click to expand...

here.

Mark Ransom said:

Not in the plants, not on the chrome, not on the Post Office truck,
nowhere! ;-)

--

Click to expand...

Justin Blethrow · Dec 15, 2003

I realize that's your point, but to be fair, it's only true because a CRT does a poorer job of representing the image data as it actually is, which is an array of square pixels. I can take my contacts off and get the same effect; it doesn't mean that the phenomenon is not present in the data. Now, in practical terms, most people still have CRTs so it won't be as noticeable to them, and most printing processes have some degree of dye spreading so it is smoothed there too. So, it may be largely inconsequential. Nonetheless, it is present in the data.

More interesting to me is that it may be telling us that Sony is doing something unconventional in their data processing (see my post about 2-pixel blocks). Pure speculation would be that it could be noise-reduction related.

Ulysses said:
Justin Blethrow said:

Hey Uly, I don't know what they're using, but I can tell you it's
quite apparent on the two LCD monitors I use. I think it would show
up less on a CRT.

Click to expand...

Exactly my point. I couldn't see it at all on my CRT monitor. I was
working hard to TRY to see it, but I couldn't say that it was a
problem at all.

I do see it more noticeably on my LCD monitor. Again, I don't know
that it's a huge issue, nor am I seeing it in every shot. I'm
wondering if it will show up in Phil's chart tests and perhaps not
in many real-world tests.

We'll have to see....

--

Ulysses

--
http://www.pbase.com/jdb/root

Ulysses · Dec 15, 2003

Justin Blethrow said:
Much larger, I think, is the number of people who were very worried
by the pre-pro stuff and have expressed some trepidation and are
now dying to see what the bottom line looks like. I fall in that
later group myself.

Unfortunately, that group was sort of driven by hearsay rather than facts (I don't think that you did, nor does everyone who was simply curious).

Justin Blethrow said:
So far I've only seen one basher in this thread. I've seen several
others who are unhappy with the first look, and are saying so in a
measure tone.

Well, that's as it should be, I suppose. One thing is for sure: There are going to be lots of users of the camera. They might as well learn to use it if they're going to keep it and maximize their happiness with it.

--

Ulysses

Ulysses · Dec 15, 2003

Justin Blethrow said:
So, it may be largely inconsequential.
Nonetheless, it is present in the data.

Oh, sure. Not to dispute that. I was just wondering if anyone had observed the same difference with different types of displays.

What I think will be MOST consequential is how they look when printed. Most will not maintain the 8MP images at full size for screen viewing. They'll either reduce them for other screen display or print them out. Or if left at full-size, they won't be for the purpose of viewing onscreen.

Justin Blethrow said:
More interesting to me is that it may be telling us that Sony is
doing something unconventional in their data processing (see my
post about 2-pixel blocks). Pure speculation would be that it could
be noise-reduction related.

Yes, I'm processing this one.

--

Ulysses

Ulysses · Dec 15, 2003

I see just perfectly --- in all 16.7 million shades of gray.

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!@

Mark Ransom said:
That you were colorblind?

--

Ulysses

fabio riccardi · Dec 15, 2003

Coool post, thanks a million!

I was finally convinced to buy this camera, I already own a Canon 10D and quite a bit of glass, but I really miss the flexibility of non-SLR cameras (I had a Canon G3), peering in the viewfinder all the time really irks me a lot.

In the pictures you sent I specially liked the foliage rendition, colors are very nice, reds are a bit too saturated for me, but maybe I can fix it with the camera settings...

Noise is visible at full res, but I'm not sure I'll ever be shooting at 8MP with this camera, moreover the texture of noise is very nice, looks like a film grain, it doesn't have the patchy digital look.

Finally, I really like the bokeh (out of focus) of the lens, I was very disappointed with my old Canon G3 lens, bokeh was just a mess of colored patches. The 828 has a very nice silky OOF rendition.

Oh, I was forgetting, I think that the high res movie mode is very interesting too!

Just sent my order to SonyStyle...

Ulysses · Dec 15, 2003

There once was a photon named Vi-o-lot
Who only knew how to lie a lot
When she decided to fly
Into Ulysses' right eye
The photon just made him cry a lot.

Hahahahahahahah....

David_S85 said:
David

David_S85 said:

Mark Ransom wrote:
That you were colorblind?

Ulysses said:

What are you guys TALKING about? There is absolutely NO problem

Click to expand...

here.

David_S85 said:

Not in the plants, not on the chrome, not on the Post Office truck,
nowhere! ;-)

--

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--

Ulysses

Justin Blethrow · Dec 15, 2003

Well personally, I value image quality highest over convenience and all other factors. A few months ago I was contemplating what camera to buy for an upcoming month-long trip to south-east asia and the two obvious contenders were the 828 and the 300D. The pre-pro images at the time were of a quality that let me expect with reasonable confidence that the production model would not meet my image quality standards, so I made my decision at that time based on an unemotional appraisal. The production model images we're seeing now are just about what I (and you, I know) expected, so I made the right choice for me. Had my priorities been a little different, I would have waited for the 828 (but not pre-ordered) and probably bought it.

I expect the majority of people who buy this camera, particularly those who make that decision now as opposed to having pre-ordered, will be quite happy with it and that's a Good Thing.

Ulysses said:
Justin Blethrow said:

Much larger, I think, is the number of people who were very worried
by the pre-pro stuff and have expressed some trepidation and are
now dying to see what the bottom line looks like. I fall in that
later group myself.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that group was sort of driven by hearsay rather than
facts (I don't think that you did, nor does everyone who was simply
curious).

Member said:

So far I've only seen one basher in this thread. I've seen several
others who are unhappy with the first look, and are saying so in a
measure tone.

Click to expand...

Well, that's as it should be, I suppose. One thing is for sure:
There are going to be lots of users of the camera. They might as
well learn to use it if they're going to keep it and maximize their
happiness with it.

--

Ulysses

--
http://www.pbase.com/jdb/root

David_S85 · Dec 15, 2003

fabio riccardi said:
fabio riccardi wrote:
In the pictures you sent I specially liked the foliage rendition,
colors are very nice, reds are a bit too saturated for me, but
maybe I can fix it with the camera settings...

Methinks RAG had the camera in Sony Color (Regular) mode rather than the 4-color (Real) mode. 'Real' should handle the reds much better.

David

Justin Blethrow · Dec 15, 2003

Ulysses said:
Oh, sure. Not to dispute that. I was just wondering if anyone had
observed the same difference with different types of displays.

What I think will be MOST consequential is how they look when
printed. Most will not maintain the 8MP images at full size for
screen viewing. They'll either reduce them for other screen display
or print them out. Or if left at full-size, they won't be for the
purpose of viewing onscreen.

I quite agree. In honesty most people don't use nearly all of their megapixels, nearly all of the time. Downsampling forgives many sins. I remain a purist though, I want my images to be forward-compatible with 20 megapixel monitors, affordable large format home photographic printers, and gigabit ethernet to my door. I'm kind of an optimist that way. ;-)

Member said:
--

Ulysses

--
http://www.pbase.com/jdb/root

Justin Blethrow · Dec 15, 2003

I couldn't agree more, I think that's just exactly the right way to look at it.

Ulysses said:
So, don't get offended at anything you hear. And don't get swept up
either, not until you are sure that this is the camera for you.
Enjoy it each step of the way!

David_S85 said:

And... Very many thanks for posting your shots here. They are
quite the diversion for this afternoon, aren't they? We're picking
them apart (not your skills, just the 828, in general).

Have fun with your new purchase.

David

Click to expand...

--

Ulysses

--
http://www.pbase.com/jdb/root

Funktion · Dec 15, 2003

I seemed to have missed the point in here where we started blaming all this on RAG. Its great he put up the shots, but in no way was I (or anyone else I believe) saying he was at fault or a bad photographer. We are just looking at the techincal sides of the photos not artistically critiquing them. shrug

Ulysses said:
Our enthusiasm for finding both good and bad (and most critiquing
usually turns out to be about finding the bad) is almost assuredly
not allowing RAG or Jon to enjoy their cameras on their first few
hours with them.

Shutter. said:

Michele,

I'm not blaming RAG for anything wrong. He just shot the camera in
auto mode. This would have happened to any photographer under the
same conditions.

Click to expand...

--

Ulysses

Darryl Cox · Dec 15, 2003

Thans Richard!

I appreciate your efforts very much.

Your images show me what I wanted to see and the f828 isgong to be a great camera. The CA is where it should be and where it will not be a problem most of the time. There is little noise that I could see.

Mine is coming in a manner of days and I am pleased with my choise.

Again, Thanks!
--
Darryl Cox

Dmitry K · Dec 15, 2003

Natty Brito said:
taikonaut1 said:

RAG said:

1. I am not a professional photographer but I like (and buy) all
sony digital cameras
2. I took the camera out of the box and took the pictures- all at
auto
3. I realize picture subjects and composition not great

enjoy

full size http://www.sonyguy.com/first828

small http://www.sonyguy.com/first828small

more later

go Dolphins!!!!!!!!

Richard
Ft. Lauderdale

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

my first 828 pixs

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