Sales of 4x6 images

Mike:

I use their software and upload thumbs only. I don't have to sit at computer and print photos for orders. I don't have to deliver photos or run them to post office. I don't pay postage. I don't have to eat the bad checks.

What is your time worth to you? In the long run, I think Printroom collecting the money, saving my time and making all the deliveries saves me as much as what I end up paying them.

I almost got out of doing the sports photography because of bad checks and people not paying. With printroom, I don't even have to worry about it.

Tom

Atlanta-Mike said:

If you have to edit all your photos before sending to Printroom,
that would be a lot of work. If you only send the thumbnails and
then only edit for printing once someone places an order, then that
is what I am doing now. Therefore, for me, I keep coming back to
issue of what does Printroom do for me that is worth giving them
16% of my sale? This is just my personal opinion, but it is the
reason I have not used my Pro account with them.

Atlanta-Mike

T. Marvin said:

I sell sports action shots, but all of may sales are handled
through printroom.com, so I don't have to print the photos or
collect the money. I'm finished with the images once they are
uploaded.

My prices are:
4x6 - $6
5x7 - $8
8x10 - $10
8x12 - $12.

With that pricing structure, I get about $5 profit from each the
4X6 or 5X7. So I don't care which one they order.

M5Laser said:

I am tempted to only offer 5x7's (because they look so much
better), but 4x6's are my biggest seller, and are easy to run off
at home. I wish my printer was set for 5x7's aslo.

Duncan

Atlanta-Mike said:

I shoot sports and offer prints of various sizes for sale on my web
site. However, I don't offer the 4x6 size as an individual item
but only as part of a package. My reason is that even though the %
return is pretty good on a 4x6, the actual money received is pretty
small. Therefore the smallest size in individual print I offer is
5x7.

I just had a parent e-mail and say he wanted to by 20-30+ 4x6's and
wondered if there is some way he got do this. I was offering 4x6
prints for $2.50/each and this is what I will charge him since I
don't want to turn down that large an order. But I was wondering
what other people do. Do you offer this size? If you don't would
ever make an exception?

I am now thinking I should revisit my decision not to offer 4x6 and
maybe offer them at a price of $3.00 vs the $5.00 I charge for the
5x7 size. That way I may get some sales I would not have
otherwise, while others may see the 5x7 as the better deal and then
I get the upsell. My percentage profit on a 4x6 maybe better than
the 5x7, but the actual dollar profit on the 5x7 is higher.

Atlanta-Mike

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--
http://www.actionimages.ca

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All good points. I hope you didn't read my message wrong, I have nothing against Printroom and actually like them. But for me I gain very little by using them. I don't accept checks, only payment through Paypal. So far I have not had any problems with collections. As for postage and delivery, I don't do that either unless I really want to. Most of the time I am using Adoroma for printing and have them shipped directly to the customer. The postage that Adoroma charges is built into the price I am charging the customer.

There are benefits both ways. I like to have complete control over how the web site looks and this is one of the main reasons I keep coming back to not using Printroom. However, I do think about it often and may switch to them at some time, but not right now. If they just let you have more control over how the page looks.

Atlanta-Mike

T. Marvin said:

I use their software and upload thumbs only. I don't have to sit at
computer and print photos for orders. I don't have to deliver
photos or run them to post office. I don't pay postage. I don't
have to eat the bad checks.

What is your time worth to you? In the long run, I think Printroom
collecting the money, saving my time and making all the deliveries
saves me as much as what I end up paying them.

I almost got out of doing the sports photography because of bad
checks and people not paying. With printroom, I don't even have to
worry about it.

Tom

Atlanta-Mike said:

If you have to edit all your photos before sending to Printroom,
that would be a lot of work. If you only send the thumbnails and
then only edit for printing once someone places an order, then that
is what I am doing now. Therefore, for me, I keep coming back to
issue of what does Printroom do for me that is worth giving them
16% of my sale? This is just my personal opinion, but it is the
reason I have not used my Pro account with them.

Atlanta-Mike

T. Marvin said:

I sell sports action shots, but all of may sales are handled
through printroom.com, so I don't have to print the photos or
collect the money. I'm finished with the images once they are
uploaded.

My prices are:
4x6 - $6
5x7 - $8
8x10 - $10
8x12 - $12.

With that pricing structure, I get about $5 profit from each the
4X6 or 5X7. So I don't care which one they order.

M5Laser said:

I am tempted to only offer 5x7's (because they look so much
better), but 4x6's are my biggest seller, and are easy to run off
at home. I wish my printer was set for 5x7's aslo.

Duncan

Atlanta-Mike said:

I shoot sports and offer prints of various sizes for sale on my web
site. However, I don't offer the 4x6 size as an individual item
but only as part of a package. My reason is that even though the %
return is pretty good on a 4x6, the actual money received is pretty
small. Therefore the smallest size in individual print I offer is
5x7.

I just had a parent e-mail and say he wanted to by 20-30+ 4x6's and
wondered if there is some way he got do this. I was offering 4x6
prints for $2.50/each and this is what I will charge him since I
don't want to turn down that large an order. But I was wondering
what other people do. Do you offer this size? If you don't would
ever make an exception?

I am now thinking I should revisit my decision not to offer 4x6 and
maybe offer them at a price of $3.00 vs the $5.00 I charge for the
5x7 size. That way I may get some sales I would not have
otherwise, while others may see the 5x7 as the better deal and then
I get the upsell. My percentage profit on a 4x6 maybe better than
the 5x7, but the actual dollar profit on the 5x7 is higher.

Atlanta-Mike

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--
http://www.actionimages.ca

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Do you get paid for the photo shoot and these prices are just for the prints? The prices quoted seem very, very low.

JWoodruff

Hi Mike,

Yup, I posted often on the Oly-SLR forum. I loved the E10 and hated it at the same time. It was great, for my needs, in a very narrow range. Yet it is what really got me hooked and back in to photography after a long laspe.

And don't undersell your photos. I would go closer to the $4 range. There are the hidden costs we never really think of besides time and cost of the prints. There is the computer equipment we have to maintain, the gas to and from the events and we aren't even getting near the price of our time.

I did mine as a favor to some doll folks. In the end I gave my proceeds to the shop owner who was going through a hard time last Christmas. Not a lot of $$ but it helped out. My costs were so low that it was a present to the rest of the customers.

Take care,

Atlanta-Mike said:

As I improve my skills at shooting soccer, I have noticed they need
less and less processing. However, they still all need some degree
of processing. It is the one part of the whole work flow I wish I
could have someone else do. Printroom offers a service like this,
but they charge something like $2 per photo and who knows if it
would be done to my standards, maybe they would be better

Atlanta-Mike

TonyK_in_Texas said:

As it was a sideline job for me, I wasn't too concerned about time
and such. Now I am, not that I do this for a living.

Seeing other folks charge $5 or more $$ for a 4x6 has opened my
eyes though I doubt I would charge that much from the doll folks.
They spend their $$ on their hobby and would bulk at that much. I
would probably go with $3 for a 4x6 and move up from there.

And my post-processing is pretty fast using C1LE on my D30. My
system is pretty well calibrated and I get good exposure/color and
only have to tweak a small amount. So I can whip a photo session
out pretty fast and still realize a small profit.

Again if this were my day job I would be charging two or three
times my current amount for 4x6 prints and scaling the other prints
from that.

Take care,

Dave Beaman said:

I sometimes use Wal Mart for printing. My older brother thought
that I shouldnt' charge $7 for a print that cost me 30 cents to
make. My brother who is retired makes some extra cash by mowing the
grass on a couple of commercial lots. I told him that I thought it
wasn't right to charge $40 to mow a lot when It only cost him $2.00
for gas and oil for the mower. He got my point very quickly on that
analogy to my print sales.

dave

Atlanta-Mike said:

I shoot sports and offer prints of various sizes for sale on my web
site. However, I don't offer the 4x6 size as an individual item
but only as part of a package. My reason is that even though the %
return is pretty good on a 4x6, the actual money received is pretty
small. Therefore the smallest size in individual print I offer is
5x7.

I just had a parent e-mail and say he wanted to by 20-30+ 4x6's and
wondered if there is some way he got do this. I was offering 4x6
prints for $2.50/each and this is what I will charge him since I
don't want to turn down that large an order. But I was wondering
what other people do. Do you offer this size? If you don't would
ever make an exception?

I am now thinking I should revisit my decision not to offer 4x6 and
maybe offer them at a price of $3.00 vs the $5.00 I charge for the
5x7 size. That way I may get some sales I would not have
otherwise, while others may see the 5x7 as the better deal and then
I get the upsell. My percentage profit on a 4x6 maybe better than
the 5x7, but the actual dollar profit on the 5x7 is higher.

Atlanta-Mike

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--
TonyK

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--
TonyK

No I did not get paid for the shoot. Do you really think they very low? I knew I was a little low, but not a lot.

Atlanta-Mike

J. Woodruff said:

Do you get paid for the photo shoot and these prices are just for
the prints? The prices quoted seem very, very low.

JWoodruff

Click to expand...

Atlanta-Mike said:

No I did not get paid for the shoot. Do you really think they very
low? I knew I was a little low, but not a lot.

Click to expand...

Mike,
Yes, very low.
$5-$6 should be norm. It also depends on the quality of work.

I, also, do sports. My basic charge is 1-5x7 Team, 1-3x5 individual, 1 Memory mate for $10. My 5x7's are $7.
My portrait prices are a little bit more.
I, usually get $20/8x10. That's actually low.

I base my other prices on that $20 sheet. 3-4x6's, 4-4x5's etc. I would divide that into $20 to get my price.

I also sell packages for portraits and weddings which gives them a much better deal than buying seperate photos.
It works quite well.
Regards,
Don

I shoot sports too. My prices for 2003 were:
4x6 - $10.00
5x7 - $15.00
8x10 - $30.00
11x14 - $50.00

At larger events I offer a 20% discount if they order at the show. It encourages people to order NOW and it saves me time searching for images.

My pricing takes into account the time I spend shooting the event, uploading the images to my website, sorting and filing, editing, printing and archiving. In addition they are paying for my expertise in photography, digital equipment, the sport, and Photoshop.

Too many photographers under-price themselves. They're doing it as a hobby or they are happy to sell their work. Take into account actual expenses, a salary and profit.

Some good books to read to reinforce photographer's worth are:
"Photography: Focus on Profit" by Tom Zimberoff
ASMP's Professional Business Practices in Photography
"Negotiating Stock Photo Prices" by Jim Pickerell

Remember: people are buying your photos because you captured something they didn't (everybody seems to have a camera). Price for your time and experise.

Judy

Atlanta-Mike said:

No I did not get paid for the shoot. Do you really think they very
low? I knew I was a little low, but not a lot.

Atlanta-Mike

Click to expand...

Remember it takes as much time to "process" a 4x6 as it does a larger image. As was said, you are being paid for what you know and your talent, not for the cost of the paper. If you are sellig several of the same image then you might discount but for one image you need to be paid for your effort and talent.

Also, do you do any PS work on the prints other then color correct?

dave

Don Christolear said:

Member said:

No I did not get paid for the shoot. Do you really think they very
low? I knew I was a little low, but not a lot.

Click to expand...

Mike,
Yes, very low.
$5-$6 should be norm. It also depends on the quality of work.
I, also, do sports. My basic charge is 1-5x7 Team, 1-3x5
individual, 1 Memory mate for $10. My 5x7's are $7.
My portrait prices are a little bit more.
I, usually get $20/8x10. That's actually low.
I base my other prices on that $20 sheet. 3-4x6's, 4-4x5's etc. I
would divide that into $20 to get my price.
I also sell packages for portraits and weddings which gives them a
much better deal than buying seperate photos.
It works quite well.
Regards,
Don

Click to expand...

I understand the cost involved in the entire process, my "day job" is as an accountant. My goal is not to make a living at photography, I don't see any way it could replace my current income, but to set my prices where they are good deal for the parents, result in me having some profit to offset my photography hobby and to be within range of local pros. The last reason is improtant to me, I don't want to be to low as to hurt a local pro, but at the same time I want to be below them since there quality and skill should be better than mine.

At this point, however, there are no local pros that are trying to shot the games I have been doing. Even with 4,000+ kids playing soccer in our league, there have been NO pros shooting the games for the past 3 years, at least. The two high schools I am shooting for also have had no pros coming to there games.

IMO, you should take into account your skill level when determining your pricing. I don't feel my skill is to the point where I should be charging the same as a pro. I did however, sell over 400 photos this past season and while that may be nothing for a pro, it was something for me. As my skill level increases and I get more request to photograph sporting events (alreadying happening), I will be increasing my pricing. Right now I am in training and having lots of fun.

Atlanta-Mike

Dave Beaman said:

Also, do you do any PS work on the prints other then color correct?

dave

Don Christolear said:

Dave Beaman said:

No I did not get paid for the shoot. Do you really think they very
low? I knew I was a little low, but not a lot.

Click to expand...

Mike,
Yes, very low.
$5-$6 should be norm. It also depends on the quality of work.
I, also, do sports. My basic charge is 1-5x7 Team, 1-3x5
individual, 1 Memory mate for $10. My 5x7's are $7.
My portrait prices are a little bit more.
I, usually get $20/8x10. That's actually low.
I base my other prices on that $20 sheet. 3-4x6's, 4-4x5's etc. I
would divide that into $20 to get my price.
I also sell packages for portraits and weddings which gives them a
much better deal than buying seperate photos.
It works quite well.
Regards,
Don

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Click to expand...

You are asking one of the most difficult questions to answer... print pricing.

Some factors:

a) Reputation. That is probably the biggest factor in print pricing. If your reputation is high, you can sell images at high prices.

b) Target market. Are you the only photographer for the event? If there are multiple photographers, including parents with cameras, your prices need to be very low to make the photos interesting.

c) Quality expectations. Are the clients buying well done 'snapshots', with little post-processing, or high quality images? People recognize high quality, and are happy to pay more, but unless it is an official photo session, most photos can be best descibed as well done snapshots.

d) Volume and client relations. Would you rather sell 1 print for $10 or 5 prints for $10. Probably one print! But that can be a serious problem, because people will grumble when buying 1 - $10 photo, yet be very happy buying 5 @ $2. Your costs are higher, and you might sell less $$$ per client, but you are much more likely to sell images at low prices to a larger number of individual clients, and you can more than make it up in volume, and customer goodwill.

IMHO, an amateur should be selling 4x6 snapshots for no more than $3 each. If you were in the buyer's position, what would you be willing to pay?

... I am only only offering A4 sized prints, some complain and do say that I’d sell more if I were cheaper … well my enquiries overall don’t support this.

I was selling 6x4” for €5 and more recently €7 but felt the price was too high, however, applying my business model to it, it had to be this price unless volumes were very much larger. In contrast I have done Santa photos at €2 by the hundred and made a stack of money in a few hours.

Another thing I found, when I was selling 6x4s I only ever sold the single one, since my switch to A4 If had many re-orders, now I’ve been blaming my 1D and Epson 950’s increased quality, saturation and black production for this, but yesterday a client who bought an A4 but had only wanted one 6x4 which we refused, ordered two more A4s yesterday as she was refused at a copy booth when she presented my picture for a €2 copy.

Obviously not everyone is out to buy a single 6x4 and copy the hell out of it an give one to all your customers (potential customers), but when I enquired about a wedding order once that had not materialised (did the wedding for reprint orders only) they said they copied the contact sheet and they were grand, they did not want any more.

So I feel justified in my move away from 6x4s in general but obviously multiple orders are certainly considered.

Now that I think about it, I had a team shot copied from a single 6x4 sale too recently, I was surprised at the comments one customer said about my pictures of her son, I asked my wife to drop in and check it out. Well she was over the moon and delighted but she was one of those who got the copied team shot but my picture was “much better”.

So there are a few thoughts to keep in the melting pot.

..... more or less by accident rather than design.

We sell the A4 but will allow any combination that will fit, 4 (5x4) 3 (6x4) 2 (7x5) 1 10x8 or the full bleed which we feel offers the best value and impact for the customer.

However, doing a 10x8 and two 6x4s in a package is a great idea and I actually had not thought of this.

Thanks.

..... we have an opportunity to see for ourselves again with the recent purchase of an Epson 950. We have it about a month now and we are printing what we consider a lot of work and we are delighted with the cash flow.

We have been tracking cost v sales and the printer, stocks and consumed material is running at €1,160 and our attributable sales are running at €1,125 leaving a deficit of €36 in one month and our stock in hand is worth some €300 so I think we’re quits.

Just about two years ago we had a wake up call on our prices with the 1270 when an unexpected volume of orders from a conferring we attended for the paper (only) resulted in some €1,300 in sales at €15 each and some at €10 even (3x), however, we had to buy all the consumables and our figures showed we spent €600 or in other words our actual print costs were €7 and not the quoted €2 (by Epson upon which we based our prices), after that we multiplied our costs by three to €21 and recently to €25.

We consider the printing side of our work as a separate component and it must make profits, we had previously identified prints as loss making and stopped printing altogether and that was back in the day of wet prints too.

Using an online firm like Printroom is a great idea, one I did try before but my customers are neighbours in reality and with a very low computer and Internet penetration. However, I do see this as a future business model and the idea of merely uploading and wait for the cash to come in automatically is appealing.

I stay away from packages since clients are always trying to swap out one size for another. Since eliminating package pricing and only offering alacarte, my life is so much simpler. Many are scrapbooking these days, so I must offer that size (although since I crop to an 8x10 ratio, they will get 4x5's unless they tell me during the shoot that they prefer 4x6.)

Someone above offered units. I only sell photographs, not units. Frankly, units sound very Wal-Mart or $ear$ and makes one's images lose value. I would not use that term when speaking to clients. Just my 2 cents

Kind Regards
-Billie

Atlanta-Mike said:

I shoot sports and offer prints of various sizes for sale on my web
site. However, I don't offer the 4x6 size as an individual item
but only as part of a package. My reason is that even though the %
return is pretty good on a 4x6, the actual money received is pretty
small. Therefore the smallest size in individual print I offer is
5x7.

I just had a parent e-mail and say he wanted to by 20-30+ 4x6's and
wondered if there is some way he got do this. I was offering 4x6
prints for $2.50/each and this is what I will charge him since I
don't want to turn down that large an order. But I was wondering
what other people do. Do you offer this size? If you don't would
ever make an exception?

I am now thinking I should revisit my decision not to offer 4x6 and
maybe offer them at a price of $3.00 vs the $5.00 I charge for the
5x7 size. That way I may get some sales I would not have
otherwise, while others may see the 5x7 as the better deal and then
I get the upsell. My percentage profit on a 4x6 maybe better than
the 5x7, but the actual dollar profit on the 5x7 is higher.

Atlanta-Mike

Click to expand...

--
Kind Regards,
-Billie
http://homepage.mac.com/brkhan/Menu14.html

unbound said:

b) Target market. Are you the only photographer for the event? If
there are multiple photographers, including parents with cameras,
your prices need to be very low to make the photos interesting.

Click to expand...

The photographers in my group wouldn't shoot an event unless they were the "official" - the only one allowed to sell photos. There isn't enough sales to share with another photographer.

unbound said:

c) Quality expectations. Are the clients buying well done
'snapshots', with little post-processing, or high quality images?
People recognize high quality, and are happy to pay more, but
unless it is an official photo session, most photos can be best
descibed as well done snapshots.

d) Volume and client relations. Would you rather sell 1 print for
$10 or 5 prints for $10. Probably one print! But that can be a
serious problem, because people will grumble when buying 1 - $10
photo, yet be very happy buying 5 @ $2. Your costs are higher, and
you might sell less $$$ per client, but you are much more likely to
sell images at low prices to a larger number of individual clients,
and you can more than make it up in volume, and customer goodwill.

Click to expand...

Late this year I modified my pricing structure to encourage people to purchase larger photos. I didn't feel I was being compensated for the amount of time it took to process a 4x6. Now, customers are buying larger photos so I'm not processing tons of 4x6s and my average ticket has increased, not decreased.

unbound said:

IMHO, an amateur should be selling 4x6 snapshots for no more than
$3 each. If you were in the buyer's position, what would you be
willing to pay?

Click to expand...

It wouldn't matter if the photo was taken by a pro or an amateur, I wouldn't buy it unless it was well composed and well exposed, then price becomes a factor.

--
JWoodruff

I sell wallets up to 24 X 36 including 4 X 6. My wallets are minimum of 4. Everything else is one each no packages.
I have sold few wallets and few larger than 8 X 10.

By delivering a 4X6, I have sold larger than 8 X 10 after my customer saw the image.

I have sold one and a half times as many 5X7's as 8X10 and ten times as many 4X6's as 5X7's this year.

--
Eugene
http://www.4sportpix.com

I think your prices are way low. We sell 4x6s (500,000 per year) to our regular clients for $2.00 - $2.50. Once a year clients pay $3.00. In sports/action your labor costs are much higher since you're selling a much lower percentage of the shots you take.

The best way for you to increase your sales would probably be to accept more methods of payment. I'd really have to want a picture to bother with openning a paypal acount.

Here's our site:

http://www.pic-man.com/thepictureman/

You can browse the graduations or use the password 'owl' to browse the Greeks.

Joe

Very good points and one some of the reasons I am selling my 4x6's for $3.00.

Atlanta-Mike

unbound said:

You are asking one of the most difficult questions to answer...
print pricing.

Some factors:

a) Reputation. That is probably the biggest factor in print
pricing. If your reputation is high, you can sell images at high
prices.

b) Target market. Are you the only photographer for the event? If
there are multiple photographers, including parents with cameras,
your prices need to be very low to make the photos interesting.

c) Quality expectations. Are the clients buying well done
'snapshots', with little post-processing, or high quality images?
People recognize high quality, and are happy to pay more, but
unless it is an official photo session, most photos can be best
descibed as well done snapshots.

d) Volume and client relations. Would you rather sell 1 print for
$10 or 5 prints for $10. Probably one print! But that can be a
serious problem, because people will grumble when buying 1 - $10
photo, yet be very happy buying 5 @ $2. Your costs are higher, and
you might sell less $$$ per client, but you are much more likely to
sell images at low prices to a larger number of individual clients,
and you can more than make it up in volume, and customer goodwill.

IMHO, an amateur should be selling 4x6 snapshots for no more than
$3 each. If you were in the buyer's position, what would you be
willing to pay?

Click to expand...

Wow!! That is something that they admitted it to you. Did they not see anything wrong with making the copies?

Atlanta-Mike

Ger Bee said:

Obviously not everyone is out to buy a single 6x4 and copy the hell
out of it an give one to all your customers (potential customers),
but when I enquired about a wedding order once that had not
materialised (did the wedding for reprint orders only) they said
they copied the contact sheet and they were grand, they did not
want any more.

Click to expand...

I am going back an adding 4x6's to my web site, but at a price of $3.00 each. What type of photography are you doing? I would love to have everything in 8x10 format, but framing a shot for that during a fast moving basketball or soccer game is beyond my current skill level. I guess I need to pratice this more.

Yes, scrapbooking is huge around here. I had not really heard much of this until my wife got into it. Seems there are whole stores devoted to this and group meetings and even seminars. So I agree, I really must offer the 4x6 size.

Atlanta-Mike

Billie said:

Someone above offered units. I only sell photographs, not units.
Frankly, units sound very Wal-Mart or $ear$ and makes one's images
lose value. I would not use that term when speaking to clients.
Just my 2 cents

Kind Regards
-Billie

Atlanta-Mike said:

I shoot sports and offer prints of various sizes for sale on my web
site. However, I don't offer the 4x6 size as an individual item
but only as part of a package. My reason is that even though the %
return is pretty good on a 4x6, the actual money received is pretty
small. Therefore the smallest size in individual print I offer is
5x7.

I just had a parent e-mail and say he wanted to by 20-30+ 4x6's and
wondered if there is some way he got do this. I was offering 4x6
prints for $2.50/each and this is what I will charge him since I
don't want to turn down that large an order. But I was wondering
what other people do. Do you offer this size? If you don't would
ever make an exception?

I am now thinking I should revisit my decision not to offer 4x6 and
maybe offer them at a price of $3.00 vs the $5.00 I charge for the
5x7 size. That way I may get some sales I would not have
otherwise, while others may see the 5x7 as the better deal and then
I get the upsell. My percentage profit on a 4x6 maybe better than
the 5x7, but the actual dollar profit on the 5x7 is higher.

Atlanta-Mike

Click to expand...

--
Kind Regards,
-Billie
http://homepage.mac.com/brkhan/Menu14.html

Click to expand...