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Fuji S2 -- horizontal bands

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Alex Wilson

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Has anyone seen this problem with this s2? I just noticed on mine (purchased two weeks ago) with some pictures I took on Friday:



The above image has been rotated (so the bands appear vertical here), resized and the levels tweaked... The bands are faintly noticible on the version with the original levels:



I went back through all the images, and the same bands seem to be there, faintly, in all the pictures, but certainly easier to see in low-key shots. I quick tweak of the levels brings them popping out. The regular appearance makes me think it must be a sensor or processor image.

I went and took a picture with some similar lighting, just as a sanity check... this is just a crop (no rotate or resize) of the side of my soft box... I tweaked the midpoint of the levels so the noise was visible. If you look at the patterns in the noise, you'll see three horizontal bars (one near the top, one dead center, on at the bottom) where it appears a little lighter and more blurred (it's easier to see on the right side):



I just took the body back to the camera store, and after showing them the pictures, they exchanged it. I just tried a similar shot with the new body, and to my surprise the lines appear to be exactly the same:



I have a little trouble believing that it's a problem common to all s2 bodies and that I'm the first to notice it. The new body's serial is only a few off from the first, so perhaps a problem with the batch?

The above images were all taken at 160 ISO, RAW. I've tried both the FinePix RAW converter and PS CS, with the same results. I'll try to shoot some better test images at different ISOs tonight.

Anyone heard or seen this before? Any suggestions?
 
Alex Wilson said:
Has anyone seen this problem with this s2? I just noticed on mine
(purchased two weeks ago) with some pictures I took on Friday:



The above image has been rotated (so the bands appear vertical
here), resized and the levels tweaked... The bands are faintly
noticible on the version with the original levels:



I went back through all the images, and the same bands seem to be
there, faintly, in all the pictures, but certainly easier to see in
low-key shots. I quick tweak of the levels brings them popping
out. The regular appearance makes me think it must be a sensor or
processor image.

I went and took a picture with some similar lighting, just as a
sanity check... this is just a crop (no rotate or resize) of the
side of my soft box... I tweaked the midpoint of the levels so the
noise was visible. If you look at the patterns in the noise,
you'll see three horizontal bars (one near the top, one dead
center, on at the bottom) where it appears a little lighter and
more blurred (it's easier to see on the right side):



I just took the body back to the camera store, and after showing
them the pictures, they exchanged it. I just tried a similar shot
with the new body, and to my surprise the lines appear to be
exactly the same:



I have a little trouble believing that it's a problem common to all
s2 bodies and that I'm the first to notice it. The new body's
serial is only a few off from the first, so perhaps a problem with
the batch?

The above images were all taken at 160 ISO, RAW. I've tried both
the FinePix RAW converter and PS CS, with the same results. I'll
try to shoot some better test images at different ISOs tonight.

Anyone heard or seen this before? Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
 
Robert,

I'm sorry about the ignorance, but I must ask. Please elaborate on your comment in relation to what's happening here.

Thanks and happy shooting,

Freddy
Robert Harrington said:
Alex Wilson said:
Has anyone seen this problem with this s2? I just noticed on mine
(purchased two weeks ago) with some pictures I took on Friday:



The above image has been rotated (so the bands appear vertical
here), resized and the levels tweaked... The bands are faintly
noticible on the version with the original levels:



I went back through all the images, and the same bands seem to be
there, faintly, in all the pictures, but certainly easier to see in
low-key shots. I quick tweak of the levels brings them popping
out. The regular appearance makes me think it must be a sensor or
processor image.

I went and took a picture with some similar lighting, just as a
sanity check... this is just a crop (no rotate or resize) of the
side of my soft box... I tweaked the midpoint of the levels so the
noise was visible. If you look at the patterns in the noise,
you'll see three horizontal bars (one near the top, one dead
center, on at the bottom) where it appears a little lighter and
more blurred (it's easier to see on the right side):



I just took the body back to the camera store, and after showing
them the pictures, they exchanged it. I just tried a similar shot
with the new body, and to my surprise the lines appear to be
exactly the same:



I have a little trouble believing that it's a problem common to all
s2 bodies and that I'm the first to notice it. The new body's
serial is only a few off from the first, so perhaps a problem with
the batch?

The above images were all taken at 160 ISO, RAW. I've tried both
the FinePix RAW converter and PS CS, with the same results. I'll
try to shoot some better test images at different ISOs tonight.

Anyone heard or seen this before? Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Do a search on the forum for track noise.You will find many people with the same thing. It seems that most if not all S2 do it. Usually shows up in underexposed areas, especially under incandescent lighting.
 
Mr. Wilson's problem is that his capture is way, way underexposed. So:

You can't get a good result (silk purse) from a drastically underexposed capture (sow's ear).

This lines? I don't know, but I'm sure that if the capture was exposed anywhere near what it should be, he wouldn't see them. I suspect that all S2's would do the same, but hardly anyone sees it because when we get a capture that bad it goes straight into the trash.

R.
Freddy Rozentzvaig said:
Thanks and happy shooting,

Freddy
Robert Harrington said:
Alex Wilson said:
Has anyone seen this problem with this s2? I just noticed on mine
(purchased two weeks ago) with some pictures I took on Friday:



The above image has been rotated (so the bands appear vertical
here), resized and the levels tweaked... The bands are faintly
noticible on the version with the original levels:



I went back through all the images, and the same bands seem to be
there, faintly, in all the pictures, but certainly easier to see in
low-key shots. I quick tweak of the levels brings them popping
out. The regular appearance makes me think it must be a sensor or
processor image.

I went and took a picture with some similar lighting, just as a
sanity check... this is just a crop (no rotate or resize) of the
side of my soft box... I tweaked the midpoint of the levels so the
noise was visible. If you look at the patterns in the noise,
you'll see three horizontal bars (one near the top, one dead
center, on at the bottom) where it appears a little lighter and
more blurred (it's easier to see on the right side):



I just took the body back to the camera store, and after showing
them the pictures, they exchanged it. I just tried a similar shot
with the new body, and to my surprise the lines appear to be
exactly the same:



I have a little trouble believing that it's a problem common to all
s2 bodies and that I'm the first to notice it. The new body's
serial is only a few off from the first, so perhaps a problem with
the batch?

The above images were all taken at 160 ISO, RAW. I've tried both
the FinePix RAW converter and PS CS, with the same results. I'll
try to shoot some better test images at different ISOs tonight.

Anyone heard or seen this before? Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Actually, to clarify: The exposure was exactly what I wanted, but I was still able to notice the faint banding in the original (dark) image. Adjusting the levels was merely meant to make it easier to describe and show.
Robert Harrington said:
R.
Freddy Rozentzvaig said:
Thanks and happy shooting,

Freddy
Robert Harrington said:
Alex Wilson said:
Has anyone seen this problem with this s2? I just noticed on mine
(purchased two weeks ago) with some pictures I took on Friday:



The above image has been rotated (so the bands appear vertical
here), resized and the levels tweaked... The bands are faintly
noticible on the version with the original levels:



I went back through all the images, and the same bands seem to be
there, faintly, in all the pictures, but certainly easier to see in
low-key shots. I quick tweak of the levels brings them popping
out. The regular appearance makes me think it must be a sensor or
processor image.

I went and took a picture with some similar lighting, just as a
sanity check... this is just a crop (no rotate or resize) of the
side of my soft box... I tweaked the midpoint of the levels so the
noise was visible. If you look at the patterns in the noise,
you'll see three horizontal bars (one near the top, one dead
center, on at the bottom) where it appears a little lighter and
more blurred (it's easier to see on the right side):



I just took the body back to the camera store, and after showing
them the pictures, they exchanged it. I just tried a similar shot
with the new body, and to my surprise the lines appear to be
exactly the same:



I have a little trouble believing that it's a problem common to all
s2 bodies and that I'm the first to notice it. The new body's
serial is only a few off from the first, so perhaps a problem with
the batch?

The above images were all taken at 160 ISO, RAW. I've tried both
the FinePix RAW converter and PS CS, with the same results. I'll
try to shoot some better test images at different ISOs tonight.

Anyone heard or seen this before? Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I see this problem as well - generally ISO 1600 shots indoors. It's a shame, really, as the S2 does really well in other respects.

--
http://www.pbase.com/gzillgi
 
Ah, thank-you for the info. I'd searched on "bands" before but not found anything. Based on what I've seen so far in the other thread, this certainly looks like the track noise issue.

Alas, I'm a little disheartened to see this in an ISO 160 RAW image. I certainly don't expect the dark areas to be noise-free, but to have such a visible pattern is a major detriment. I'm a bit more concerned by the fact that you mention it shows up in dark areas under incandescent lighting -- as a fan of low-key and hot-lights, this could be a major issue. :(

I'm still wondering if the noise pattern varies from camera to camera, and if it's worth persuing yet another body to try.
b.p. said:
Do a search on the forum for track noise.You will find many people
with the same thing. It seems that most if not all S2 do it.
Usually shows up in underexposed areas, especially under
incandescent lighting.
Click to expand...
 
Did the same thing. If teh pic is underexposed or at ISO1600 in some sitations it had the banding or noise you are getting.

Its a problem with ALL S2's
 
This is a well-kown S2 issue. Do a search also for "line/linear noise" or "pattern noise". IMO, it's one of the S2 ugliest thing, and a total shame, bearing in mind the great high ISO/low light capabilities of this camera. Incandescent lights make it a lot worse. I haven't seen any line under natural light.
Best regards!
digislr said:
Did the same thing. If teh pic is underexposed or at ISO1600 in
some sitations it had the banding or noise you are getting.

Its a problem with ALL S2's
Click to expand...
--
http://www.beatusille.net
'Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?'
Groucho Marx
 
It happened to me, only much, much worse and it was sporadic. It started like yours and went downhill, the bands would obliterate part of the image. I printed a few and sent them to Fuji with my S2 They replaced it in about two weeks.

No problems with the replacement. I love my S2.

--
Chas
 
Alex Wilson said:
Ah, thank-you for the info. I'd searched on "bands" before but not
found anything. Based on what I've seen so far in the other
thread, this certainly looks like the track noise issue.
Click to expand...
Track noise is a finer linear noise that is visible primarily in shadows. The wide repeating band pattern you've shown isn't normal for the camera, even with underexposed images.



--
BJN
 
I've got the camera store bringing in another body for me to try. Interestingly enough, I was able to reproduce the problem on the store's demo body with relative ease. The wide horizontal bands didn't show up at 1600 ISO, but as soon as I switched it to 160 ISO, they showed up once I tweaked the levels.

I also left them a CD to send to Fuji, and I'll be sending some more samples to a Fuji support rep.

I'm gonna try some more test shots at different ISOs tonight, I'm hoping it's a problem particular to 160 ISO or just a bad batch of sensors.
 
Unfortunately this is not a fixable problem except that correct exposure will not show these bands.

I have hade these problems as well as the "track noise" (which this is not) and correct exposure solved the banding but for track noise my camera went back for re-programming of the CCD.

To get black without noise in an image it is wise to use enough exposure in the midtones and highlights with lighting to have the highlight detail just below the overexposure region.

Your shot would have worked if it had been exposed for the higlights but correct conversion from the RAF file could have saved it too.
Rinus of Calgary
Alex Wilson said:
Has anyone seen this problem with this s2? I just noticed on mine
(purchased two weeks ago) with some pictures I took on Friday:



The above image has been rotated (so the bands appear vertical
here), resized and the levels tweaked... The bands are faintly
noticible on the version with the original levels:



I went back through all the images, and the same bands seem to be
there, faintly, in all the pictures, but certainly easier to see in
low-key shots. I quick tweak of the levels brings them popping
out. The regular appearance makes me think it must be a sensor or
processor image.

I went and took a picture with some similar lighting, just as a
sanity check... this is just a crop (no rotate or resize) of the
side of my soft box... I tweaked the midpoint of the levels so the
noise was visible. If you look at the patterns in the noise,
you'll see three horizontal bars (one near the top, one dead
center, on at the bottom) where it appears a little lighter and
more blurred (it's easier to see on the right side):



I just took the body back to the camera store, and after showing
them the pictures, they exchanged it. I just tried a similar shot
with the new body, and to my surprise the lines appear to be
exactly the same:



I have a little trouble believing that it's a problem common to all
s2 bodies and that I'm the first to notice it. The new body's
serial is only a few off from the first, so perhaps a problem with
the batch?

The above images were all taken at 160 ISO, RAW. I've tried both
the FinePix RAW converter and PS CS, with the same results. I'll
try to shoot some better test images at different ISOs tonight.

Anyone heard or seen this before? Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
 
This is crop from an image, straight from the TIF (which was straight from the RAW file via the LE converter)...



I don't think exposure or conversion is the issue.

If the horizontal bands are an "expected" artifact from the sensor/processor, then it's a shame, since the brighter values of the band mean that a rather large amount of shadow detail must be discarded in order to remove it.

I can get the bands to show up consistantly, and on different bodies. If bodies exist that don't show the wide horizontal bands, I'd love to find one :)
Rinus Borgsteede said:
Unfortunately this is not a fixable problem except that correct
exposure will not show these bands.
I have hade these problems as well as the "track noise" (which this
is not) and correct exposure solved the banding but for track noise
my camera went back for re-programming of the CCD.
To get black without noise in an image it is wise to use enough
exposure in the midtones and highlights with lighting to have the
highlight detail just below the overexposure region.
Your shot would have worked if it had been exposed for the
higlights but correct conversion from the RAF file could have saved
it too.
Rinus of Calgary
Click to expand...
 
This is not track noise and I have never seen these very faint bands from my 1 year old S2. They are extremely faint though from the example you post(which looks like a 100% crop from the 12MP output). This nor the faint track noise(which would become clearer if sharpened)would ever show up in print but I agree something is up with the horizontal band if this is a straight conversion without any exposrue bias during conversion or tweaking afterwards. Interestingly, My S2 was set to ASA 160 when I originally received it from Fuji. Makes me wonder If this is the true ASA of the CCD instead of 100 OR if my S2 was calibrated at ASA 160. This was back when the S2's had just experienced some sort of Battery issue recall and all were going through an extra step of Quality Control.

Tariq
Tariq.com
Alex Wilson said:


I don't think exposure or conversion is the issue.

If the horizontal bands are an "expected" artifact from the
sensor/processor, then it's a shame, since the brighter values of
the band mean that a rather large amount of shadow detail must be
discarded in order to remove it.

I can get the bands to show up consistantly, and on different
bodies. If bodies exist that don't show the wide horizontal bands,
I'd love to find one :)
Rinus Borgsteede said:
Unfortunately this is not a fixable problem except that correct
exposure will not show these bands.
I have hade these problems as well as the "track noise" (which this
is not) and correct exposure solved the banding but for track noise
my camera went back for re-programming of the CCD.
To get black without noise in an image it is wise to use enough
exposure in the midtones and highlights with lighting to have the
highlight detail just below the overexposure region.
Your shot would have worked if it had been exposed for the
higlights but correct conversion from the RAF file could have saved
it too.
Rinus of Calgary
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Interestingly enough, the bands are easier to see at lower ISOs. I ran through ISOs 100 to 1600, and the increased random noise at 800 and 1600 almost obscures the wide horizontal bands I'm seeing.
Tariq said:
This is not track noise and I have never seen these very faint
bands from my 1 year old S2. They are extremely faint though from
the example you post(which looks like a 100% crop from the 12MP
output). This nor the faint track noise(which would become clearer
if sharpened)would ever show up in print but I agree something is
up with the horizontal band if this is a straight conversion
without any exposrue bias during conversion or tweaking afterwards.
Interestingly, My S2 was set to ASA 160 when I originally received
it from Fuji. Makes me wonder If this is the true ASA of the CCD
instead of 100 OR if my S2 was calibrated at ASA 160. This was
back when the S2's had just experienced some sort of Battery issue
recall and all were going through an extra step of Quality Control.

Tariq
Tariq.com
Click to expand...
 
Alex Wilson said:
Interestingly enough, the bands are easier to see at lower ISOs. I
ran through ISOs 100 to 1600, and the increased random noise at 800
and 1600 almost obscures the wide horizontal bands I'm seeing.
Click to expand...
Are these all in-camera jpegs or tiffs? What does a raw file conversion show? The stripes may be more visible at low ISO because they're not obscured by the higher color noise at high ISOs.

--
BJN
 
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