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Petapixel article on the current state of the FFF.

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findthomas said:
Jeffry7 said:
https://petapixel.com/2025/10/27/si...il&utm_term=0_b23d56ed7e-d2d67fc22d-433989207
Click to expand...
For me, this was the most interesting line:

"Sigma has had a Foveon team, but Sigma’s CEO says that now, it is primarily a Sigma Japan engineering team working on the project."

Dos this mean there has been some "engineering wisdom & knowledge" that has been lost in transitioning to aJapan engineering team?
Click to expand...
He meant that Sigma owned the U.S. Company Foveon, but then disbanded the U.S. operation while retaining ownership of it's intellectual property. I don't know if any U.S. personnel were hired or retained directly by Sigma Aizu ...
 
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xpatUSA2 said:
findthomas said:
Jeffry7 said:
https://petapixel.com/2025/10/27/si...il&utm_term=0_b23d56ed7e-d2d67fc22d-433989207
Click to expand...
For me, this was the most interesting line:

"Sigma has had a Foveon team, but Sigma’s CEO says that now, it is primarily a Sigma Japan engineering team working on the project."

Dos this mean there has been some "engineering wisdom & knowledge" that has been lost in transitioning to aJapan engineering team?
Click to expand...
He meant that Sigma owned the U.S. Company Foveon, but then disbanded the U.S. operation while retaining ownership of it's intellectual property. I don't know if any U.S. personnel were hired or retained directly by Sigma Aizu ...
Click to expand...
Ted & others,

It might have helped speed up the development of the FF X3 sensor if some of the Foveon engineers were hired even on a part time or advisory basis. Starting from scratch without any background must mean learning as they go in the in house Sigma Japan process. Around two years ago it seemed that the sensor was nearly ready but then other problems seemed to intervene and everything went back to the beginning again. A very clear statement about the actual position would be helpful, especially to the ancients here.

As things seem to be now it will probably be four or five years before a working FF X3 sensor will see any light, if ever, probably too late for some of us.

S
 
Ceistinne said:
xpatUSA2 said:
findthomas said:
Jeffry7 said:
https://petapixel.com/2025/10/27/si...il&utm_term=0_b23d56ed7e-d2d67fc22d-433989207
Click to expand...
For me, this was the most interesting line:

"Sigma has had a Foveon team, but Sigma’s CEO says that now, it is primarily a Sigma Japan engineering team working on the project."

Dos this mean there has been some "engineering wisdom & knowledge" that has been lost in transitioning to aJapan engineering team?
Click to expand...
He meant that Sigma owned the U.S. Company Foveon, but then disbanded the U.S. operation while retaining ownership of it's intellectual property. I don't know if any U.S. personnel were hired or retained directly by Sigma Aizu ...
Click to expand...
Ted & others,

It might have helped speed up the development of the FF X3 sensor if some of the Foveon engineers were hired even on a part time or advisory basis. Starting from scratch without any background must mean learning as they go in the in house Sigma Japan process. Around two years ago it seemed that the sensor was nearly ready but then other problems seemed to intervene and everything went back to the beginning again. A very clear statement about the actual position would be helpful, especially to the ancients here.

As things seem to be now it will probably be four or five years before a working FF X3 sensor will see any light, if ever, probably too late for some of us.
Click to expand...
Indeed, Sheamus, as an 85 yr-old diabetic invalid, I'm not sure that I'll see one. Had no plans to buy one anyway. 3.4MP and National Semiconductor sensors are still good enough for my monitor.
 
Ceistinne said:
As things seem to be now it will probably be four or five years before a working FF X3 sensor will see any light, if ever, probably too late for some of us.

S
Click to expand...
Pffffft.

The FFF has "been around the corner" for almost 10 years now.

;-) :-D

I am no longer optimistic that anything will be released. Even if it is, I may not be in a position to buy it at that point in time.
 
findthomas said:
Jeffry7 said:
https://petapixel.com/2025/10/27/si...il&utm_term=0_b23d56ed7e-d2d67fc22d-433989207
Click to expand...
For me, this was the most interesting line:

"Sigma has had a Foveon team, but Sigma’s CEO says that now, it is primarily a Sigma Japan engineering team working on the project."

Dos this mean there has been some "engineering wisdom & knowledge" that has been lost in transitioning to aJapan engineering team?
Click to expand...
Greetings

Yes, and **** Merrill has passed on. Sad

Roger J.
 
Greetings Sigma FF Foveon Fans or FFFF (4F Group)

I get it, I'd love to shoot a FFF, but what's wrong with the Foveon cameras you have? Mine still work and the IQ is as good a my Leica or Nikon gear, and in some cases better, as a matter of fact I'm thing of selling my Nikon gear and just shoot my Sigma SDQ-H SA9 and 3 art lenses with a MC21 adapter to the L mount. Oh ya my Bronica GS-1

At 74 and with a couple of medical issues I hope I last long enough to see one.

Stop worrying and go shoot, and have fun

Roger J.
 
Well I now have a better insight into why it's taking so long -- they don't have anyone on their team who has been involved in photographic sensor design. This is a bit like asking a bicycle mechanic to design a jet engine and refusing to even hire the Wright brothers (They did actually design an aero engine). I really think Sigma needs to pull their collective finger out and reach out to at least someone from the Foveon development team -- maybe part-time but even that wouldn't be enough.

All this waffling about will NOT produce a FFF. Sigma is simply not committed enough.
 
Hopefully this is just them trying really hard to make sure the chip and foundry aren't going to impose any additional limitations beyond the inherit tradeoffs from the 3 layer design.
 
EEvan said:
Hopefully this is just them trying really hard to make sure the chip and foundry aren't going to impose any additional limitations beyond the inherit tradeoffs from the 3 layer design.
Click to expand...
Hopefully they will stay away from DingDongBu HiTek ...

Remember this?

dprevived.com

Starry starry Night, Foveon-wise

Started by xpatUSA on Dec. 3, 2024 in the Technical Discussions category. 6 replies, last one from Dec. 10, 2024.
dprevived.com dprevived.com
 
findthomas said:
Jeffry7 said:
https://petapixel.com/2025/10/27/si...il&utm_term=0_b23d56ed7e-d2d67fc22d-433989207
Click to expand...
For me, this was the most interesting line:

"Sigma has had a Foveon team, but Sigma’s CEO says that now, it is primarily a Sigma Japan engineering team working on the project."

Dos this mean there has been some "engineering wisdom & knowledge" that has been lost in transitioning to aJapan engineering team?
Click to expand...
I have been saying this for several years now: Sigma does not have the knowledge/engineering talent of the original team to pull this off. Latest interview directly confirms my suspicion.
 
SigmaChrome said:
I really think Sigma needs to pull their collective finger out and reach out to at least someone from the Foveon development team -- maybe part-time but even that wouldn't be enough.
Click to expand...
Carver Mead is 91 years old, **** Merrill died in 2008, and Richard Lyon is 72 or 73 years old. The outstanding combined technical knowledge and expertise of these three people made Foveon possible. Carver Mead, a world-renowned scientist with too many revolutionary electronics and computing achievements to list, wouldn't be available for work, and Richard Lyon is very unlikely to be available either, so Sigma has to find other people. They based the Foveon X3 Quattro sensors on Foveon X3, but it's not known who at Sigma or what third party designed the Quattro sensors. In order to modify or fundamentally redesign Foveon sensors, an equally outstanding expert team would be required. Since that doesn't come easy nor cheap, to say the least, I doubt Sigma will be doing anything with Foveon. Maybe executives at Sigma believed they could get some less outstanding people to do work that's way above their head. I'm sure they're super smart, but not everyone can be a world-renowned, groundbreaking scientist and inventor like Carver Mead.
 
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WilyKit said:
SigmaChrome said:
I really think Sigma needs to pull their collective finger out and reach out to at least someone from the Foveon development team -- maybe part-time but even that wouldn't be enough.
Click to expand...
Carver Mead is 91 years old, **** Merrill died in 2008, and Richard Lyon is 72 or 73 years old. The outstanding combined technical knowledge and expertise of these three people made Foveon possible. Carver Mead, a world-renowned scientist with too many revolutionary electronics and computing achievements to list, wouldn't be available for work, and Richard Lyon is very unlikely to be available either, so Sigma has to find other people. They based the Foveon X3 Quattro sensors on Foveon X3, but it's not known who at Sigma or what third party designed the Quattro sensors. In order to modify or fundamentally redesign Foveon sensors, an equally outstanding expert team would be required. Since that doesn't come easy nor cheap, to say the least, I doubt Sigma will be doing anything with Foveon. Maybe executives at Sigma believed they could get some less outstanding people to do work that's way above their head. I'm sure they're super smart, but not everyone can be a world-renowned, groundbreaking scientist and inventor like Carver Mead.
Click to expand...
If I understood ****'s comments correctly here on DP, they were largely responsible for prototyping and making pre M, M and Q Foveon possible.

Sigma side was involved only in Q and only somewhat. Basically Q was the last sensor the original team designed, prototyped, and held Sigma team's hand through the process.

This is why time to fab for both pre M, M and Q versions were all reasonable while FFF just stalled with nothing to show for it after a decade.

Q was released in 2010s... a decade ago.

Since then, there has been nothing and Sigma CEO is saying they are still running into a ton of issues on the fab side. This is an indication that FFF is Sigma's truly first sensor design without the original team's input/hand-holding. Frankly I don't think they can pull this off anymore. I think the next 'foveon' will be some perovskite based tech by some other company.
 
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Could also be why the latest Bayer cameras are just repackaged off-the-shelf sensors.

The cameras work, but it's easier to buy the main part vs design it from scratch.

Sigma will have to keep selling those cameras and lenses to fund the Foveon project.

Because Sigma is privately held, and the cameras are passion projects, I don't believe these will go away and I also believe that there will always be "some" work on Foveon type design, at least as long as Mr. Yamaki is in charge.

Whether or not it gets beyond the prototype stage is another thing entirely.
 
SigmaChrome said:
Well I now have a better insight into why it's taking so long -- they don't have anyone on their team who has been involved in photographic sensor design. This is a bit like asking a bicycle mechanic to design a jet engine and refusing to even hire the Wright brothers (They did actually design an aero engine). I really think Sigma needs to pull their collective finger out and reach out to at least someone from the Foveon development team -- maybe part-time but even that wouldn't be enough.

All this waffling about will NOT produce a FFF. Sigma is simply not committed enough.
Click to expand...
Maybe the problem they ran into with the full-frame prototype right before they pulled the plug in California convinced them they should just do it themselves. The fact is what one man can do another can do. It just takes time. Yes, they've had a few years working on it in Japan, and they have possibly made headway, but maybe the problems that the California team faced, which caused their prototype to be unusable (or just not good enough), are problems that neither they nor Sigma Japan can easily overcome, and that is why it is taking so much time to create a good full-frame X3 sensor. I choose to believe they will eventually make it. I trust Mr. Yamaki to stick to his word. In fact, I believe that 3D sensor printing technology is just around the corner, and AI will be able to assist with the development of the full-frame X3 sensor. It may be able to help them right now. After-all, Grok 4 is smarter than all but the most advanced engineers and scientists at pretty much everything. Grok 5 will probably be smarter than everyone on Earth combined. When will Grok 5 be available to use? Probably next year.
 
WilyKit said:
SigmaChrome said:
I really think Sigma needs to pull their collective finger out and reach out to at least someone from the Foveon development team -- maybe part-time but even that wouldn't be enough.
Click to expand...
Carver Mead is 91 years old, **** Merrill died in 2008, and Richard Lyon is 72 or 73 years old. The outstanding combined technical knowledge and expertise of these three people made Foveon possible. Carver Mead, a world-renowned scientist with too many revolutionary electronics and computing achievements to list, wouldn't be available for work, and Richard Lyon is very unlikely to be available either, so Sigma has to find other people. They based the Foveon X3 Quattro sensors on Foveon X3, but it's not known who at Sigma or what third party designed the Quattro sensors. In order to modify or fundamentally redesign Foveon sensors, an equally outstanding expert team would be required. Since that doesn't come easy nor cheap, to say the least, I doubt Sigma will be doing anything with Foveon. Maybe executives at Sigma believed they could get some less outstanding people to do work that's way above their head. I'm sure they're super smart, but not everyone can be a world-renowned, groundbreaking scientist and inventor like Carver Mead.
Click to expand...
Good points.

I'm pretty sure **** Merrill designed the Quattro sensor not too long after the original three-layer X3.

**** Lyon and I are pretty much the same age and I'd be happy to go to Japan for a couple weeks - all expenses paid + a hefty consulting fee of course - so maybe **** would be too. At least he could tell them if they're heading in the right direction, and maybe nudge them if they're not. It's worth a try...

--
Regards,
Vitée
Capture all the light and colour!
http://www.pbase.com/vitee/galleries
 
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SigmaChrome said:
WilyKit said:
SigmaChrome said:
I really think Sigma needs to pull their collective finger out and reach out to at least someone from the Foveon development team -- maybe part-time but even that wouldn't be enough.
Click to expand...
Carver Mead is 91 years old, **** Merrill died in 2008, and Richard Lyon is 72 or 73 years old. The outstanding combined technical knowledge and expertise of these three people made Foveon possible. Carver Mead, a world-renowned scientist with too many revolutionary electronics and computing achievements to list, wouldn't be available for work, and Richard Lyon is very unlikely to be available either, so Sigma has to find other people. They based the Foveon X3 Quattro sensors on Foveon X3, but it's not known who at Sigma or what third party designed the Quattro sensors. In order to modify or fundamentally redesign Foveon sensors, an equally outstanding expert team would be required. Since that doesn't come easy nor cheap, to say the least, I doubt Sigma will be doing anything with Foveon. Maybe executives at Sigma believed they could get some less outstanding people to do work that's way above their head. I'm sure they're super smart, but not everyone can be a world-renowned, groundbreaking scientist and inventor like Carver Mead.
Click to expand...
Good points.

I'm pretty sure **** Merrill designed the Quattro sensor not too long after the original three-layer X3.
Click to expand...
A Foveon Quattro-esque patent filed in 2005 has four names on it, including Merrill and Lyon.

http://kronometric.org/phot/sensor/...lution top layer and ... - Google Patents.htm

US07339216-20080304-D00008.png


US07339216-20080304-D00009.png


See items 32, 33, 35 and 36. Not sure what item 27 is.
 
Last edited:
SigmaChrome said:
WilyKit said:
SigmaChrome said:
I really think Sigma needs to pull their collective finger out and reach out to at least someone from the Foveon development team -- maybe part-time but even that wouldn't be enough.
Click to expand...
Carver Mead is 91 years old, **** Merrill died in 2008, and Richard Lyon is 72 or 73 years old. The outstanding combined technical knowledge and expertise of these three people made Foveon possible. Carver Mead, a world-renowned scientist with too many revolutionary electronics and computing achievements to list, wouldn't be available for work, and Richard Lyon is very unlikely to be available either, so Sigma has to find other people. They based the Foveon X3 Quattro sensors on Foveon X3, but it's not known who at Sigma or what third party designed the Quattro sensors. In order to modify or fundamentally redesign Foveon sensors, an equally outstanding expert team would be required. Since that doesn't come easy nor cheap, to say the least, I doubt Sigma will be doing anything with Foveon. Maybe executives at Sigma believed they could get some less outstanding people to do work that's way above their head. I'm sure they're super smart, but not everyone can be a world-renowned, groundbreaking scientist and inventor like Carver Mead.
Click to expand...
Good points.

I'm pretty sure **** Merrill designed the Quattro sensor not too long after the original three-layer X3.

**** Lyon and I are pretty much the same age and I'd be happy to go to Japan for a couple weeks - all expenses paid + a hefty consulting fee of course - so maybe **** would be too. At least he could tell them if they're heading in the right direction, and maybe nudge them if they're not. It's worth a try...
Click to expand...
Vitée,

I agree, but it would be better maybe if Richard Lyon could be with them for a couple of months. Surely his advice & expertise would be very useful and that is in no way taking from the efforts and expertise of the Sigma in house engineers or whatever university people that has been advising them.

S
 
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