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DPR Update DPReview forum update: timeline and what to expect

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Michael Fryd said:
Michael Fryd said:
...
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DPReview is not the only photography forum site.

The thinking goes:
  1. DPReview is better than the other sites because it has better content.
  2. The majority of the content is provided by the users who post on the forums.
  3. The unique features of the DPReview software attract better posters, and that's why DPReview has better posters/content than other sites.
  4. Without those unique features, those posters will no longer prefer DPReview, and therefore post less, and/or move some of their posting to other sites.
  5. Once DPReview has the same software as other sites, it will lose its advantage and become no better than the other sites out there.
Click to expand...
If number 5 is true, then there would be no point in anyone leaving DPR, and numbers 1 and 2 remain.

Numbers 1 and 2 become the future unique features, and number 3 will remain.

And therefore, number 4 will not apply.

By Jove, you have solved the 'problem' :-D
 
Michael Fryd said:
Yes. DPReview does not charge users. it is advertiser supported. Management is free to do whatever they want. They are free to make changes that benefit DPReview and they are free to make changes that harm DPReview.
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[SNIP]
Michael Fryd said:
Everyone seems to be in favor of the path they see as best. Reasonable people can differ on which path that is.
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Fair enough, but paths that are not viable are not relevant.

Dale's earlier comment was clarifying. He acknowledged how well this system has served the community, but he also made it clear that DPR no longer has the resources to maintain it.

As a result, the two remaining choices were (1) migrate to a new platform that can be managed within the company's resource constraints, or (2) shut down the forums.

Folks can be disappointed with those choices -- count me among those who will likely miss this version of the forums -- but arguing that the company should keep doing the impossible doesn't really make sense.
 
The Lamentable Lens said:
Michael Fryd said:
Yes. DPReview does not charge users. it is advertiser supported. Management is free to do whatever they want. They are free to make changes that benefit DPReview and they are free to make changes that harm DPReview.
Click to expand...
[SNIP]
The Lamentable Lens said:
Everyone seems to be in favor of the path they see as best. Reasonable people can differ on which path that is.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, but paths that are not viable are not relevant.

Dale's earlier comment was clarifying. He acknowledged how well this system has served the community, but he also made it clear that DPR no longer has the resources to maintain it.

As a result, the two remaining choices were (1) migrate to a new platform that can be managed within the company's resource constraints, or (2) shut down the forums.

Folks can be disappointed with those choices -- count me among those who will likely miss this version of the forums -- but arguing that the company should keep doing the impossible doesn't really make sense.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone has argued that the company should keep doing the impossible, or that they need to keep things the way they were. I think the argument has always been that there were better choices that could have been made.

Resources are not limited to money. It also includes personnel. If an organization doesn't have someone who can maintain software, they can outsource, or find someone with the appropriate skill set.

DPReview chose to outsource. Some people believe they would have been better off finding someone who could maintain the software.

So while it may have been impossible for DPReview to continue as they were, some people believe they had other choices, and perhaps the other choices were better.

To be fair, if your in-house resources are having trouble maintaining the existing software it is possible that under the best of circumstances, the software would still be too expensive to maintain. It is also possible that the in-house resources are not familiar with the latest in software development technology, and therefore are unaware of tools that could dramatically reduce the cost of maintaining the software.

It's hard to tell which is correct, as in either scenario, the in-house resources would think the software was too expensive to maintain.

.

A few years ago, some local parents formed a group to raise money for the local public elementary school. The program paid to put teaching assistants into classrooms, and funded a stand-alone gifted program. Things were going very well until the principal retired. The new principal had moved from a school that lacked strong support from parents. She noticed that the gifted program was running a slight deficit, and decided to save the school some money by eliminating it. She did this without talking to parents and announced it as a done deal. The parents who had been donating were upset. They said they would just kick in a little more money and the problem would be solved. Unfortunately, it was too late. The school had already committed to the change. Donations dried up, and the school lost the extra funding. Not only did the school lose the teaching assistants, but the deficit increased without the funding that subsidized the gifted program. Parents of some of the gifted students transferred their kids to other schools. This lowered the school's rating as the school's average on standardized tests dropped. The lower averages discouraged other parents from sending their kids to the school.

The moral is that it can be dangerous to make changes that upset the people you depend on. DPReview depends most on the users who create valuable content. I think it's fair to say that some of those users are upset. Hopefully we won't lose those users to other sites.
 
Hi everyone,

We appreciate everyone taking the time to engage in this discussion. I want to highlight one thing Mathew (our Community Manager) posted earlier for anyone who may have missed it:

"For extended discussions in this thread, depending on the topic, please note that these may be moderated. We would like to keep responses here on-topic given the important nature of this announcement. We may remove extended strings of discussion and debate if they stray too far into topics that have already been discussed elsewhere."

Basically, we want to keep this thread focused on the update, the timeline, and questions about the migration process. If you want to discuss other topics, or discuss issues like threaded vs. flat view, please do so in one of the existing threads dedicated to those topics or start a new one.

Thanks!
 
Deleting in response to Dale's message. Bottom line, the change is happening regardless of how anyone feels about it. I will see you ALL on the other side :-D
 
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sportyaccordy said:
Deleting in response to Dale's message. Bottom line, the change is happening regardless of how anyone feels about it. I will see you ALL on the other side :-D
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Yes, it's happening no matter what users think about it.

I suspect that DPReview will be a large client for XenForo. They may have some clout in requesting new features. Feedback from users will help them understand the sort of features they should be asking XenForo to develop.
 
KevinStarr said:
All these baby user's !! :) Color tv wasn't a thing when I hit this earth !! But I must say I would not trade the 50,60,70's for nothing !!
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We didn't have any TV until I was almost 10! I kept going to a friends house who had a TV so my father bought one to keep me home.
 
I like Cameraderie's layout and UI, very similar to y'alls' Dark Mode :-)

cameraderie.org

New posts

New posts - Cameraderie - Photography community & message board forum for sharing photos, information, and talking camera gear. 📷
cameraderie.org cameraderie.org
 
Thank you for the update. I hated threaded view originally. I came to love it, but I’m sure I’ll adapt.
 
tbcass said:
KevinStarr said:
All these baby user's !! :) Color tv wasn't a thing when I hit this earth !! But I must say I would not trade the 50,60,70's for nothing !!
Click to expand...
We didn't have any TV until I was almost 10! I kept going to a friends house who had a TV so my father bought one to keep me home.
Click to expand...
I remember our first color television, the upgrade from a 17" portable black n white, to a 24" Motorola console in the typical period wood cabinet. Dad found the Moto in a dumpster, brought it home and unplugged/replugged all the tubes, vacuumed the dust out of it, and we proceeded to watch it for three years.

I still remember the morning I was happily watching Hotel Balderdash, when the output suddenly scrunched down to a thin line in the center of the screen. Rudely interrupting my morning Cheeri-Os!

Dad got up, put me on his shoulders, and we walked across the street in the sun to Skagg's Drugs, which had a tube tester. Dad plucked the vertical output stage tubes from the set, (because they all had tube diagrams inside the cabinet) and tested them til he found the bad one. Replaced it, and we were up and running! That was a great day.
 
Good Idea

I have been running a forum on Xenforo for the last 5 years.

Nowhere near as detailed as DP Review will be.

But Xenforo is probably the top rated forum software out there, and has lots of add-ons

Good Luck
 
wjan said:
Reading through the numerous complaints in this thread, I would like to reflect on the most recurring ones — without having any insider knowledge of the DPReview situation:

"Is it change for change’s sake?"
It seems that those who claim this either didn’t read the “Why this matters” section of the first post carefully or interpret it in some odd way. All the points Dale mentioned about performance and sustainability aren’t just words — they reflect the reality of any long-running IT system. I experience this firsthand in my day job, where we support and develop a workflow system that’s over three decades old. We’ve had to completely overhaul it twice and upgrade internal components — such as databases and plugins — dozens of times. It’s inevitable: software evolves rapidly. Operating systems change, browsers change, security requirements change, service providers change, user demands change, and so on. If you don’t adapt your system, it will simply stop working one day.

"It will look as ugly as other XenForo forums do."
Many XenForo forums stick with the default interface. I don’t find it ugly, but that’s subjective. As shown in Matthew’s video, they customized the interface to look as close to the current forums as possible. It already looks quite pleasing to me, and there will certainly be more polishing in the coming months.

"I can’t live without threaded view."
The flat view in XenForo is much more convenient than in the current DPReview forum. It links replies to the original messages and reduces scrolling due to a more efficient layout.
Those who miss that single feature tend to overlook the numerous advantages XenForo introduces: far more flexible text formatting for replies (e.g., tables, colors, code), improved user profiles, pinned messages, visible likes, better notifications, attachment view over whole threads, enhanced moderation tools, greater integration with other site content, third-party add-ons, and more.

"User numbers will plummet."
Yes, they would plummet to zero if DPReview couldn’t find the resources to maintain the old software. But no, they won’t plummet just because the forum software is updated. I’ve lived through two major forum migrations* in the past as a moderator of a big forum, and while we received our share of complaints, everyone eventually adjusted. Besides, it’s always a tiny vocal minority that openly likes or dislikes the change — nine out of ten users simply don’t care and come here for the content, not the UI.

* We initially had a self-written forum that had to be integrated with the main site — not unlike what DPReview has. It worked quite well in the early days of the internet, when there weren’t as many factors to consider. However, as the web became more complex, we had to deal with numerous integrations: snippets from the main site, online shops, ads, and so on. The system load also grew as the number of visitors increased. It started to become tedious, as we had only a single programmer who simply couldn’t keep up anymore. It became clear that the costs of maintaining and developing the forum had to be managed differently. Trying to save on costs, we first migrated to a freeware forum solution but quickly noticed that its development wasn’t progressing as smoothly as it should have, and bug reports weren’t being addressed promptly. So, a few years later, we bit the bullet and moved to a paid forum software. That decision eased our burden and freed up resources for more important work.
That forum and website sadly no longer exist — the financial crisis of 2009 eventually killed them off — but the underlying problems were much the same as those DPReview faces today.
Click to expand...
WJan, an eloquent summary of the current situation, that should give us all food for thought. My software experience correlates very much with what you are saying. Hopefully we all can turn a page and look forward to welcoming the new forum platform and continue sharing our photography experiences in a positive and useful manner.
 
Hello!

Thank you, Phil for starting a great resource of information and knowledge, that I have been glad to be part of for more than 20 years now. To me, DPR will always be associated with your original design and nothing will ever replace it for me - so a sad day indeed.

Best,

Alex
 
And lasted long for software, but now the software (not the forum) will have to go. Or are you still preferring WordPerfect?
 
wjan said:
Reading through the numerous complaints in this thread, I would like to reflect on the most recurring ones — without having any insider knowledge of the DPReview situation:

"Is it change for change’s sake?"
It seems that those who claim this either didn’t read the “Why this matters” section of the first post carefully or interpret it in some odd way. All the points Dale mentioned about performance and sustainability aren’t just words — they reflect the reality of any long-running IT system. I experience this firsthand in my day job, where we support and develop a workflow system that’s over three decades old. We’ve had to completely overhaul it twice and upgrade internal components — such as databases and plugins — dozens of times. It’s inevitable: software evolves rapidly. Operating systems change, browsers change, security requirements change, service providers change, user demands change, and so on. If you don’t adapt your system, it will simply stop working one day.

"It will look as ugly as other XenForo forums do."
Many XenForo forums stick with the default interface. I don’t find it ugly, but that’s subjective. As shown in Matthew’s video, they customized the interface to look as close to the current forums as possible. It already looks quite pleasing to me, and there will certainly be more polishing in the coming months.

"I can’t live without threaded view."
The flat view in XenForo is much more convenient than in the current DPReview forum. It links replies to the original messages and reduces scrolling due to a more efficient layout.
Those who miss that single feature tend to overlook the numerous advantages XenForo introduces: far more flexible text formatting for replies (e.g., tables, colors, code), improved user profiles, pinned messages, visible likes, better notifications, attachment view over whole threads, enhanced moderation tools, greater integration with other site content, third-party add-ons, and more.

"User numbers will plummet."
Yes, they would plummet to zero if DPReview couldn’t find the resources to maintain the old software. But no, they won’t plummet just because the forum software is updated. I’ve lived through two major forum migrations* in the past as a moderator of a big forum, and while we received our share of complaints, everyone eventually adjusted. Besides, it’s always a tiny vocal minority that openly likes or dislikes the change — nine out of ten users simply don’t care and come here for the content, not the UI.

* We initially had a self-written forum that had to be integrated with the main site — not unlike what DPReview has. It worked quite well in the early days of the internet, when there weren’t as many factors to consider. However, as the web became more complex, we had to deal with numerous integrations: snippets from the main site, online shops, ads, and so on. The system load also grew as the number of visitors increased. It started to become tedious, as we had only a single programmer who simply couldn’t keep up anymore. It became clear that the costs of maintaining and developing the forum had to be managed differently. Trying to save on costs, we first migrated to a freeware forum solution but quickly noticed that its development wasn’t progressing as smoothly as it should have, and bug reports weren’t being addressed promptly. So, a few years later, we bit the bullet and moved to a paid forum software. That decision eased our burden and freed up resources for more important work.
That forum and website sadly no longer exist — the financial crisis of 2009 eventually killed them off — but the underlying problems were much the same as those DPReview faces today.
Click to expand...
I struggle with all the fuss over the look of a forum. The new XF will be fine and likely better than now. All companies need to change/stay current and if this change helps DPR soldier on into the future, I’m all for it. Probably should have been done years ago.

im not a “computer guy” but it seems to me that the migration effort is epic. We should all be giving a hearty thanks to the DPR staff that are likely burning incredible hours to make this happen.



cheers!
 
hi guys:

thanks for all the work that you are putting in on this.

We are 3 days away from your initially projected start. Is the timeline still holding or have you hit a bump or two that might cause a delay?



Personally, I’m excited to get the new forums migrated and loaded. Thanks again!



Dale Baskin said:
Hi DPReview community,

For 25 years, the DPReview forums have been home to some of the most passionate photography discussions anywhere online. To ensure the forums remain healthy, secure, and sustainable for the decades ahead, we will be updating them to a modern software platform. Many of you have already heard that we're preparing to do this, but this update includes new information, including the timeline and what to expect during the transition.

Why this matters

Our forums are a cornerstone of the photography community, both a living conversation and an irreplaceable historical archive. This update will preserve that full history while making the forums easier to maintain, improve, and access on all devices.

This update will also allow us to roll out important performance improvements and feature updates, including a more responsive site experience, a mobile-friendly design, improved photo galleries, an enhanced messaging system with group message support, better notifications, and more.

The goal is simple: protect what makes the DPReview community special while giving it a stronger foundation for the future. This transition follows extensive research and evaluation of modern forum software to ensure we can continue to operate the forums sustainably.

Timeline and what to expect

We plan to begin the migration around October 31. At that time, the forums will enter a read-only mode for approximately five days. You'll still be able to browse and search existing discussions, but publishing new posts and uploading new content will temporarily pause while we move all forum data to the new system. After this data migration is complete, the updated forums will go live.

Once the migration is complete, all current discussions, your posting history, photo albums, private messages, and other data will be available on the updated site. You'll just be logging into a modern home for the same community.

Platform evaluation

For the past quarter century, the forums have run on a proprietary, custom-built software system. While it's served us well, that legacy platform has become increasingly complex and expensive to maintain. Continuing to support it indefinitely is no longer a viable option.

After a long period of research and evaluation, we selected XenForo , a modern and widely supported platform that will allow us to continue growing and improving the forums. In addition to supporting long-requested features, it provides the secure, sustainable foundation we need for the future.

One key change in this transition is a move from supporting both threaded and flat views to an enhanced flat view with improved quoting tools.

We recognize that threaded view has been a defining part of how many long-time users follow conversations, and we understand how important it is to those who prefer it. Ultimately, though, we had to choose the path that guarantees the forums' longevity and stability over maintaining a single feature – even an important one.

The new flat view is designed for clarity, responsiveness, and flexibility, and we're confident most users will find it a natural evolution once they've had time to explore it.

Preview and resources

To see a glimpse of what's coming, our Community Manager, Mathew Anderson, has put together a short video preview of the updated forum experience:

87d5d0f8b4cd4fff89789e35e968de44.jpg

Video: Updated forum preview

We have also prepared a detailed FAQ based on community feedback. If your question isn't covered there, please post it in the FAQ thread and we'll do our best to respond.

A couple of features may not be ready on Day 1 and, if not, will follow shortly in a maintenance update. These include:
  • EXIF data: Photos will retain EXIF data, but EXIF data may not display on images in forum threads at launch. (Images in your sample galleries will display EXIF data at launch.)
  • Product searches: You may encounter minor issues in the immediate post-launch period.
We'll keep this announcement updated throughout the migration and share any new information here.

Thank you

We appreciate your patience and support as we take this important step. The DPReview forums have thrived for a quarter century because of this community's knowledge, creativity, and generosity, and this upgrade is all about ensuring they continue to thrive for many years to come.

Once the updated software is live, we'll have many opportunities to fine-tune and expand the experience based on your feedback. That includes exploring new discussion spaces, taking advantage of the new gallery system, and finding better ways to highlight your contributions. Your input will be essential in shaping these improvements, so once you've had a chance to explore the updated forums, please share your thoughts and suggestions with us.

Thank you for your continued support,
The entire DPReview team
Click to expand...
 
Phil Askey said:
I created the original threaded forum system, which at the time was fairly groundbreaking.
Click to expand...
I started mlhh.org decades ago. It uses a threaded forum customized from a popular perl-based system from the '90s. After I started it, a friend of mine did a lot of the customization work, including the moderation system in place there now. After ten years, he retired from maintaining it. We made sure to have volunteers who knew how things worked. I have not been active there or even visited much for years, but I see after visiting just now that it's still active (although it looks like they could benefit from a certificate).

Thanks so much for creating this forum. It's been a treasure for years.

--
Victor Engel
 
Last edited:
DM-CO said:
hi guys:

thanks for all the work that you are putting in on this.

We are 3 days away from your initially projected start. Is the timeline still holding or have you hit a bump or two that might cause a delay?

Personally, I’m excited to get the new forums migrated and loaded. Thanks again!
Click to expand...
You're welcome! We are indeed still on track for a LOCKDOWN on Friday with a LAUNCH happening hopefully Wednesday next week (possibly Tuesday if all goes really well).

Sorry for the capital letters there, I wanted to be sure the date distinction between the lockdown start and the actual launch day.
 
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