DPR Update DPReview forum update: timeline and what to expect

I created the original threaded forum system, which at the time was fairly groundbreaking.
It's been a fantastic system for so many years. Thanks for creating it and creating a space for this community to grow.
I am finding it difficult to process how you can comment in this situation.

It's like the judge thanking the revolutionary for all his good qualities before the hangman pulls the lever...
Phil's system has served this community incredibly well for many years and is a testament to how thoughtfully it was built. I started using it myself long before joining the DPReview team, and I've always liked it.

However, it's now a 25-year-old software platform that is complex, outdated, and increasingly expensive to maintain. We wouldn't be making this change, fully aware that it's unpopular with some long-time users, if it weren't absolutely necessary.

To be blunt, migrating the forums to a new platform is what will allow us to keep the forums in operation. I promise that the alternative would be far less popular.

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Dale Baskin
Managing Editor, DPReview
 
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The DP forums are, IMNSHO, the absolutely most sleek forums around. The design is compact and extremely easy to follow and beautiful. In particular the black variant.

All other forums have a bloated design, that takes up more space with less information. Making them slower to use and harder to get an overview.

Now, I do not know how the new DP forums looks. I do not know how they feel to use. I hope my fears are wrong. But, it is likely to be a degradation, both looks and user friendliness. Hope that is not the case.
Thanks for your comments, Roland.

If continuing to operate the current forum software was a viable business option, we wouldn't be making this change. Basically, we chose the path that will allow us to keep the forums in operation, as I'm sure the alternative would be far less popular.

The updated forum will look and work a bit differently from the current one. We know it won't be to everyone's liking, and we accept that. All we ask is that people give it a chance rather than making up their minds before they've even had a chance to try it.

Dale
 
I created the original threaded forum system, which at the time was fairly groundbreaking.
It's been a fantastic system for so many years. Thanks for creating it and creating a space for this community to grow.
I am finding it difficult to process how you can comment in this situation.

It's like the judge thanking the revolutionary for all his good qualities before the hangman pulls the lever...
This is entirely normal, almost anyone working in systems engineering or software development, will eventually see their former hard work get replaced by something else.

Personally, I can only think of one system I built about 20 years ago which is still in use, and I'm actively advocating for it to be replaced because it is becoming increasingly incompatible with other business systems, and the technology under-pinning it is well out of date by modern standards.

As users, we only see the "surface" of these applications and websites, and are conveniently sheltered from the underlying complexity and work involved in keeping them running. In this case, only DPR themselves can really comment on the situation - and have explained that it wasn't sustainable to keep the current system running, the alternative would likely have been to remove forums completely.
 
I created the original threaded forum system, which at the time was fairly groundbreaking.
It's been a fantastic system for so many years. Thanks for creating it and creating a space for this community to grow.
I am finding it difficult to process how you can comment in this situation.

It's like the judge thanking the revolutionary for all his good qualities before the hangman pulls the lever...
This is entirely normal, almost anyone working in systems engineering or software development, will eventually see their former hard work get replaced by something else.

Personally, I can only think of one system I built about 20 years ago which is still in use, and I'm actively advocating for it to be replaced because it is becoming increasingly incompatible with other business systems, and the technology under-pinning it is well out of date by modern standards.

As users, we only see the "surface" of these applications and websites, and are conveniently sheltered from the underlying complexity and work involved in keeping them running. In this case, only DPR themselves can really comment on the situation - and have explained that it wasn't sustainable to keep the current system running, the alternative would likely have been to remove forums completely.
I appreciate that resources are probably the limiting factor here. But as a sometimes developer I think of how to implement a new threaded system. Separate each component so that changing the interface doesn't require any changes to the engine. Any number of "views" should be able to sit on top.
 
I am finding it difficult to process how you can comment in this situation.

It's like the judge thanking the revolutionary for all his good qualities before the hangman pulls the lever...
This is entirely normal, almost anyone working in systems engineering or software development, will eventually see their former hard work get replaced by something else.

Personally, I can only think of one system I built about 20 years ago which is still in use, and I'm actively advocating for it to be replaced because it is becoming increasingly incompatible with other business systems, and the technology under-pinning it is well out of date by modern standards.

As users, we only see the "surface" of these applications and websites, and are conveniently sheltered from the underlying complexity and work involved in keeping them running. In this case, only DPR themselves can really comment on the situation - and have explained that it wasn't sustainable to keep the current system running, the alternative would likely have been to remove forums completely.
I appreciate that resources are probably the limiting factor here. But as a sometimes developer I think of how to implement a new threaded system. Separate each component so that changing the interface doesn't require any changes to the engine. Any number of "views" should be able to sit on top.
It’s pretty apparent they’ve reviewed their options and decided the best course is to go with a forum product built and supported externally, any modifications would need to be within the limits of what XenForo permits through their plugin architecture and data model.
 
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Damn, I can say I was there. Been there a few times. Good memories.
 
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Losing threaded conversations is a big bummer for me. Sometimes a topic opens in flat view and there's often no way to tell who is replying to who. But if a flat view is the only option maybe it'll work out when people quote the original message. Maybe it helps in topic not going in several directions either. Will see.

One thing I hope stays is a quick way to switch between categories. The current dropdown menu works fast on desktop. On mobile it's a step extra, but it's still easy to navigate to the categories I frequent.

I understand the need to move away from a custom crafted forum. Hopefully the new one comes close in experience. I like the way this forum works and it's really only one of two I still frequent. Forums need to make a come back in general ;-).
 
Im gonna bet that people are gonna forget about threaded view on the new forums after about 3 months and it will be business as usual. I think people are just scared of change and finding community through commisseration. Im looking forward to the switch just so we dont have to talk about the switch anymore.
 
The DP forums are, IMNSHO, the absolutely most sleek forums around. The design is compact and extremely easy to follow and beautiful. In particular the black variant.

All other forums have a bloated design, that takes up more space with less information. Making them slower to use and harder to get an overview.

Now, I do not know how the new DP forums looks. I do not know how they feel to use. I hope my fears are wrong. But, it is likely to be a degradation, both looks and user friendliness. Hope that is not the case.
A number of DPReview users have experience with both DPReview and XenForo based sites. These people have opinions based on actual experience with both systems.

As they have used both, their opinions are not based on fear of change. They are based on an actual real world comparison after using both systems.

Perhaps I have missed them, but I have not seen any posts of the form "I have used XenForo and I much prefer it to DPReview's software".

My understanding is the primary attraction of XenForo is that it moves software development and maintenance to a third party experienced in that realm. It seems that DPReview management feels their in-house expertise is not in forum software development. They believe that outsourcing software development/maintenance will improve user experience and reduce costs.

If software development remains in-house, they worry that costs will exceed revenue. That's not a viable position for DPReview.

.

Although some are worried that the change in features will have an overall negative impact of DPReview, I think we are all hoping management is correct and that the change will be good for DPReview.
 
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I think its also worth considering DPR cant afford to support the existing forum system anymore, so the choices are pretty much XenForo or no forums at all.

People dont seem to acknowledge how much they get from this site for free. If threaded view is so important and easy to maintain, folks should have no problem creating their own forum with that layout.

I get that the change sucks for some, but at the end of the day its a free website that has to do what it has to do to keep going. Frankly, I think a lot of people are being ungrateful and narrow minded. Ive seen huge forums/websites shut down forever w/o warning.
 
Reading through the numerous complaints in this thread, I would like to reflect on the most recurring ones — without having any insider knowledge of the DPReview situation:

"Is it change for change’s sake?"
It seems that those who claim this either didn’t read the “Why this matters” section of the first post carefully or interpret it in some odd way. All the points Dale mentioned about performance and sustainability aren’t just words — they reflect the reality of any long-running IT system. I experience this firsthand in my day job, where we support and develop a workflow system that’s over three decades old. We’ve had to completely overhaul it twice and upgrade internal components — such as databases and plugins — dozens of times. It’s inevitable: software evolves rapidly. Operating systems change, browsers change, security requirements change, service providers change, user demands change, and so on. If you don’t adapt your system, it will simply stop working one day.

"It will look as ugly as other XenForo forums do."
Many XenForo forums stick with the default interface. I don’t find it ugly, but that’s subjective. As shown in Matthew’s video, they customized the interface to look as close to the current forums as possible. It already looks quite pleasing to me, and there will certainly be more polishing in the coming months.

"I can’t live without threaded view."
The flat view in XenForo is much more convenient than in the current DPReview forum. It links replies to the original messages and reduces scrolling due to a more efficient layout.
Those who miss that single feature tend to overlook the numerous advantages XenForo introduces: far more flexible text formatting for replies (e.g., tables, colors, code), improved user profiles, pinned messages, visible likes, better notifications, attachment view over whole threads, enhanced moderation tools, greater integration with other site content, third-party add-ons, and more.

"User numbers will plummet."
Yes, they would plummet to zero if DPReview couldn’t find the resources to maintain the old software. But no, they won’t plummet just because the forum software is updated. I’ve lived through two major forum migrations* in the past as a moderator of a big forum, and while we received our share of complaints, everyone eventually adjusted. Besides, it’s always a tiny vocal minority that openly likes or dislikes the change — nine out of ten users simply don’t care and come here for the content, not the UI.

* We initially had a self-written forum that had to be integrated with the main site — not unlike what DPReview has. It worked quite well in the early days of the internet, when there weren’t as many factors to consider. However, as the web became more complex, we had to deal with numerous integrations: snippets from the main site, online shops, ads, and so on. The system load also grew as the number of visitors increased. It started to become tedious, as we had only a single programmer who simply couldn’t keep up anymore. It became clear that the costs of maintaining and developing the forum had to be managed differently. Trying to save on costs, we first migrated to a freeware forum solution but quickly noticed that its development wasn’t progressing as smoothly as it should have, and bug reports weren’t being addressed promptly. So, a few years later, we bit the bullet and moved to a paid forum software. That decision eased our burden and freed up resources for more important work.
That forum and website sadly no longer exist — the financial crisis of 2009 eventually killed them off — but the underlying problems were much the same as those DPReview faces today.
 
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I think its also worth considering DPR cant afford to support the existing forum system anymore, so the choices are pretty much XenForo or no forums at all.

People dont seem to acknowledge how much they get from this site for free. If threaded view is so important and easy to maintain, folks should have no problem creating their own forum with that layout.

I get that the change sucks for some, but at the end of the day its a free website that has to do what it has to do to keep going. Frankly, I think a lot of people are being ungrateful and narrow minded. Ive seen huge forums/websites shut down forever w/o warning.
What you are saying is true. What is also true is I will try the new format and if I don't like it I will post a lot less than I do now. Based on the little preview it appears that it will be like several other forums that I tried and didn't like much so I always came back to this one.
 
Im gonna bet that people are gonna forget about threaded view on the new forums after about 3 months and it will be business as usual. I think people are just scared of change and finding community through commisseration. Im looking forward to the switch just so we dont have to talk about the switch anymore.
I'm scared of nothing. I have partaken in many forums that lacked threaded view going back 25+ years. What drew me to DPR from the others in 2005 was threaded view.
 
I think we are all hoping management is correct and that the change will be good for DPReview.
DPR has been important to me for 20+ years for all sorts of reasons. I do indeed fear it will evolve into something with which I cannot get on/do not want but I intend to give the new version a fair chance. I want it to succeed.
 
...

People dont seem to acknowledge how much they get from this site for free. If threaded view is so important and easy to maintain, folks should have no problem creating their own forum with that layout.

...
Yes. DPReview does not charge users. it is advertiser supported. Management is free to do whatever they want. They are free to make changes that benefit DPReview and they are free to make changes that harm DPReview.

The people who are complaining are not ungrateful. They are very much appreciative of DPReview. The issue is that they want to help DPReview. It's a way of giving something back. In this case they are giving feedback which they hope will guide management to make decisions that will benefit DPReview.

I may have missed it, but I have not seen any posts from people who want DPReview to go away. All of the posts I have seen are from people who want DPReview to survive and flourish.

Everyone seems to be in favor of the path they see as best. Reasonable people can differ on which path that is.

As to creating their own forum, it has been tried in the past. In particular when DPReview was scheduled to be shutdown by Amazon. The new site did not have some of the features that DPReview has, and the new site is not as successful as DPReview. Whether or not the difference was the feature set is a very interesting question.
 
I think its also worth considering DPR cant afford to support the existing forum system anymore, so the choices are pretty much XenForo or no forums at all.

People dont seem to acknowledge how much they get from this site for free. If threaded view is so important and easy to maintain, folks should have no problem creating their own forum with that layout.

I get that the change sucks for some, but at the end of the day its a free website that has to do what it has to do to keep going. Frankly, I think a lot of people are being ungrateful and narrow minded. Ive seen huge forums/websites shut down forever w/o warning.
What you are saying is true. What is also true is I will try the new format and if I don't like it I will post a lot less than I do now. Based on the little preview it appears that it will be like several other forums that I tried and didn't like much so I always came back to this one.
We'll see :-)
 
...

People dont seem to acknowledge how much they get from this site for free. If threaded view is so important and easy to maintain, folks should have no problem creating their own forum with that layout.

...
Yes. DPReview does not charge users. it is advertiser supported. Management is free to do whatever they want. They are free to make changes that benefit DPReview and they are free to make changes that harm DPReview.

The people who are complaining are not ungrateful. They are very much appreciative of DPReview. The issue is that they want to help DPReview. It's a way of giving something back. In this case they are giving feedback which they hope will guide management to make decisions that will benefit DPReview.
Completely dismissing all the other things of value DPR forums have to offer, threatening to leave if one doesnt get their way, writing off the new DPR forums w/o having even tried them are not "trying to help" DPReview. They are emotional outbursts of frustration around change.

I dont think its unfair or unreasonable to lament the loss of a favorite feature, but some of the responses around it are extreme IMO, and are in no way helpful.
I may have missed it, but I have not seen any posts from people who want DPReview to go away. All of the posts I have seen are from people who want DPReview to survive and flourish.
I never claimed there was....
Everyone seems to be in favor of the path they see as best. Reasonable people can differ on which path that is.

As to creating their own forum, it has been tried in the past. In particular when DPReview was scheduled to be shutdown by Amazon. The new site did not have some of the features that DPReview has, and the new site is not as successful as DPReview. Whether or not the difference was the feature set is a very interesting question.
Which speaks to my point about the value of DPR forums. Part of why those offshoots died is because DPR is where people would rather come back to. So the idea that people are going to leave DPR forums after posting here for decades over the loss of one feature just doesnt seem logical or realistic.

But hey, maybe Im wrong. We will see when the changeover happens.
 
...

People dont seem to acknowledge how much they get from this site for free. If threaded view is so important and easy to maintain, folks should have no problem creating their own forum with that layout.

...
Yes. DPReview does not charge users. it is advertiser supported. Management is free to do whatever they want. They are free to make changes that benefit DPReview and they are free to make changes that harm DPReview.

The people who are complaining are not ungrateful. They are very much appreciative of DPReview. The issue is that they want to help DPReview. It's a way of giving something back. In this case they are giving feedback which they hope will guide management to make decisions that will benefit DPReview.
Completely dismissing all the other things of value DPR forums have to offer, threatening to leave if one doesnt get their way, writing off the new DPR forums w/o having even tried them are not "trying to help" DPReview. They are emotional outbursts of frustration around change.

I dont think its unfair or unreasonable to lament the loss of a favorite feature, but some of the responses around it are extreme IMO, and are in no way helpful.
I may have missed it, but I have not seen any posts from people who want DPReview to go away. All of the posts I have seen are from people who want DPReview to survive and flourish.
I never claimed there was....
Everyone seems to be in favor of the path they see as best. Reasonable people can differ on which path that is.

As to creating their own forum, it has been tried in the past. In particular when DPReview was scheduled to be shutdown by Amazon. The new site did not have some of the features that DPReview has, and the new site is not as successful as DPReview. Whether or not the difference was the feature set is a very interesting question.
Which speaks to my point about the value of DPR forums. Part of why those offshoots died is because DPR is where people would rather come back to. So the idea that people are going to leave DPR forums after posting here for decades over the loss of one feature just doesnt seem logical or realistic.

But hey, maybe Im wrong. We will see when the changeover happens.
DPReview is not the only photography forum site.

The thinking goes:
  1. DPReview is better than the other sites because it has better content.
  2. The majority of the content is provided by the users who post on the forums.
  3. The unique features of the DPReview software attract better posters, and that's why DPReview has better posters/content than other sites.
  4. Without those unique features, those posters will no longer prefer DPReview, and therefore post less, and/or move some of their posting to other sites.
  5. Once DPReview has the same software as other sites, it will lose its advantage and become no better than the other sites out there.
It remains to be seen whether or not this is the correct conclusion. However, to many it seems plausible, or even likely.

The objections to this are not that it isn't logical. The argument it is based on an incorrect assumption. Many believe that the unique features of DPReview software do not play a significant role in attracting the posters that generate beneficial content.

As we have no real data on the effects of unique features, we can but speculate. However, it is clear that there are some people that do believe the features play a significant role. Some of these people have experience with both DPReview and XenForo based sites. Therefore they have an informed personal preference.

It seems to me that all the participants in this discussion want success for DPReview, and are trying their best to help DPReview find the best path towards success.
 
It seems to me that all the participants in this discussion want success for DPReview, and are trying their best to help DPReview find the best path towards success.
Given that the move to XenForo, with the subsequent loss of a threaded view is a done deal, I think that the best way for the long term members with a great deal to offer is for them to help ensure success for DPReview by supporting the change and hopefully adapt to the new forum once they've tried it.

Some may be unable to adapt and would feel unable to participate further, but at least they would have tried their best.

I think the time for hand-wringing is past now and we should give the new forum a fighting chance.
 

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