All Pana have to do is copy Sony A7C II

If Panasonic could merge the cutting-edge tech from the G9II/GH7 into a compact rangefinder body like the Sony A7C II, they’d have a true game-changer on their hands — a hybrid camera that could dominate both photo and video markets.

With a smaller crop sensor and Panasonic’s proven innovations, the potential is massive. Here’s how it could outshine the A7C II:

Technical Advantages:

1. Superior IBIS — Smaller sensor + Panasonic’s renowned stabilization = unmatched handheld performance.
2. Dual IS — Many Panasonic lenses already feature OIS (e.g., 12-35mm f/2.8, 35-100mm f/2.8), enabling powerful combined stabilization.
3. Fully Mechanical Shutter — Unlike Sony’s front curtain shutter, this offers better flash sync and durability.
4. Expanded LUT Support — Seamless integration with the Lumix Lab app for creative color grading.

Display & Handling:

1. Larger EVF & Higher-Res LCD — Panasonic could easily surpass Sony’s modest viewfinder and screen specs.
2. Compact Lens Ecosystem — Compare the Pana 12-35mm f/2.8 to Sony’s bulky 24-70mm f/2.8 — huge size and weight savings.

Performance Boosts:

1. Faster Burst Shooting — A7C II maxes out at 10fps; Panasonic could push well beyond.
2. Computational Photography — Features like Handheld High-Res, Light Composite, Pre-buffer Shooting, and Focus Stacking elevate creative possibilities.
3. Reduced Rolling Shutter — Plus uncropped 4K60p for clean, high-quality video.
4. 4K120p — Why not? Panasonic’s video pedigree makes this feasible.
5. Open Gate & Pro Video Tools — Essential for serious filmmakers.
6. Leica B&W Profile — A unique aesthetic touch for monochrome lovers.

This combo would be a blockbuster — compact, powerful, and truly hybrid. Panasonic just needs to wrap their tech in a sleek, full-frame-style body and they’ll have a winner.

The A7Cii isn't that compact, apart from being a 33Mpix FF body (priced at £1,740). Unless you have very strong hands, you need the bottom grip extension to wrangle any moderately front-heavy lens. With smaller lenses, it's fine.

You need to compare equivalent lenses like the 10-25/1.7 to the 20-70/4 rather than lenses whose size is driven by very different light gathering and subject isolation capability.

You do know that the A7Cii/R bodies have decent IBIS (similar to my OM5) and Dual-IS with any FE OSS lens?

I guess putting all the goodies you mention into a small body at a price less than £2,000 at launch would be an interesting challenge. If size is a key competitive factor for you, then 450g should be the target weight, a bit below the GX8 and above the OM5.

I suspect (actually know) that people looking for small size would choose the 28-60/4-5.6, which is optically excellent, £200 dekitted, and equivalent in light gathering and subject isolation to MFT 14-30/2-2.8. Me, I prefer the 20-70/4 G and Tamron 28-75/2.8 as alternative options.

Mind the 10-25 & 25-50 f1.7 zooms are optimised for video, including being parfocal and having minimal focus breathing, as well as constant aperture and designed to fit in a rig. For Sony, you might want to include the ZV body series as alternatives.

A

ahaslett said:

The A7Cii isn't that compact, apart from being a 33Mpix FF body (priced at £1,740). Unless you have very strong hands, you need the bottom grip extension to wrangle any moderately front-heavy lens. With smaller lenses, it's fine.

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Yeah, I was corrected on this in the past too. The larger diameter mount fools you to think it's a smaller camera than it actually is, if you are used to seeing MFT cameras. The front view is roughly the size of a GX85 and GX9, but as with the S9, I was corrected in the past that it is very misleading. Even in the S9, the body is much chunkier in thickness and the A7C is similar (except it has a grip also which makes it even chunkier) and it's a different experience holding it than a GX85 or GX9.

Even though the GX8 is further taller and wider (much of it due to the much larger EVF), the experience holding it is probably closer to that camera (including the shutter button placement) as it has similar chunk to the body. And that camera was widely complained here as "too big".

ahaslett said:

I guess putting all the goodies you mention into a small body at a price less than £2,000 at launch would be an interesting challenge. If size is a key competitive factor for you, then 450g should be the target weight, a bit below the GX8 and above the OM5.

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Even if they can make it less than that price, it's a big gamble if they can sell much units at that price. In the MFT world, it has been demonstrated that rangefinders struggle to sell even at the $1000 mark. Right now you can get a OM-1 for $1400 new and the G9 II is on sale for $1500 and it's almost guaranteed those bodies will have more features (because it's big enough to fit them).

I think specifically Panasonic soured to the rangefinder concept because the GX9 didn't appear to sell well (rumormill was they had a GX10 planned that was cancelled in the pandemic). Whether we see a return probably depends on if the S9 was a big success like the S5. If so, Panasonic may make a variant for MFT sharing the body (similar to the G9 II did with S5). Only Panasonic knows though how well the S9 sold.

1. Is there evidence that the thermals of Pana's DR boosting, subject-detect autofocusing, 25 megapixel OSPDAF imaging pipeline and video capabilities are even feasible in a smaller body?

2. Is there evidence that sales and profits gained would offset cannibalization of G9ii and S9 (not to mention that mid-market money maker the G97) lines which probably need all the capacity utilization and inventory turnover they can get?

All of this GX8ii wishcasting is understandable but feels ... Hopeless.

Que cerá, cerá. We'll see.

--
"Gentlemen, it has been a privilege playing with you tonight." - Titanic musician before their final song

The S9 might have a smallish front profile but it is a big thick grip-less lump of brick to hold. Panasonic are good at miniature RF-Style bodies (as we know) and if this and the also pretty thick A7c type are the best that two capable manufacturing brands can offer I have already despaired of seeing a reasonable compact FF RF-Style body from anyone.

At the moment it seems "cannot do". Fore some reason FF sensor bodies have to be "thick" and the faux-dslr style with big grip and faux mirror box for a decent sized evf tend to disguise their true depth.

Or are the FF RF-Style bodies just make thicker so that we have something significant to wraps our fingers round?

ahaslett said:

The A7Cii isn't that compact, apart from being a 33Mpix FF body (priced at £1,740). Unless you have very strong hands, you need the bottom grip extension to wrangle any moderately front-heavy lens. With smaller lenses, it's fine.

You need to compare equivalent lenses like the 10-25/1.7 to the 20-70/4 rather than lenses whose size is driven by very different light gathering and subject isolation capability.

You do know that the A7Cii/R bodies have decent IBIS (similar to my OM5) and Dual-IS with any FE OSS lens?

I guess putting all the goodies you mention into a small body at a price less than £2,000 at launch would be an interesting challenge. If size is a key competitive factor for you, then 450g should be the target weight, a bit below the GX8 and above the OM5.

I suspect (actually know) that people looking for small size would choose the 28-60/4-5.6, which is optically excellent, £200 dekitted, and equivalent in light gathering and subject isolation to MFT 14-30/2-2.8. Me, I prefer the 20-70/4 G and Tamron 28-75/2.8 as alternative options.

Mind the 10-25 & 25-50 f1.7 zooms are optimised for video, including being parfocal and having minimal focus breathing, as well as constant aperture and designed to fit in a rig. For Sony, you might want to include the ZV body series as alternatives.

A

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The Sony A7Cii is 514g. 124 x 71 x 63 mm, while the OM System OM-5ii is 414g. 125 x 85 x 50 mm. It looks a bit smaller than the OM-5ii based on length and height, but is thicker and heavier (by 20%). Because it has similar specs to the G9ii which is much larger and heavier.

But if Panasonic could put the G9ii capability (mostly) into a smaller body, that would be great.

But I doubt it will happen. The market for m43 is drying up, and it seems clear that Panasonic is committed to FF.

All the processing power needs a big battery. The long side of the cross-section makes the body deep, just as it makes the OM3 wide.

The GX9 is modestly taller, wider, thinner and lighter than the A7Cii. Taller is good, wider is OK. The grip is too small for typical FF lenses, the 20-70/4 for example.

I’d say the G9ii sensor in a GX9 body couldn’t afford to be much more than the GX9 weight, given the smaller sensor and lower resolution than the A7Cii. The G9ii battery is 50g, the GX9 25g. Could be an issue!

A

Fair enough for those that like RF style bodies.

But I would be happier to see Lumix improve on their AF. I am more than happy with static acquisition (even in C-AF) but it seems to be just off too often in more dynamic environments - e.g. when panning. And that's at the slower fps where it refocuses between each frame...

I have an OM5 too. The 12-45/4 goes well with it.

A

Would it likely be an updated mk-II of either:

• GX9 (evf in 16:9 @0.7x to make it smallest possible), or
• GX8 (evf in 4:3 @0.77x making it the largest GX series having evf).

?

These product of similar design indeed had produced long before Sony's A7C in 2020 (look at the GX7 in 2013, GX8 in 2015 and GX85 in 2016). Unfortunately due to whatever reasons pushing Panny to become a believer of bigger is better such that G9 class and GH class being its dominant M43 product...

The G100 series is an overhauling of the entry class GF to fill up the latest compact line of model (GX and GF, even the G9X). This reduced capability (lack of IBIS/M-shutter etc) cameras might likely clear the way for the higher cost G9/GH for those who need more powerful cameras. I am not optimistic on Panny's U-turn soon. :-(

ahaslett said:

All the processing power needs a big battery. The long side of the cross-section makes the body deep, just as it makes the OM3 wide.

The GX9 is modestly taller, wider, thinner and lighter than the A7Cii. Taller is good, wider is OK. The grip is too small for typical FF lenses, the 20-70/4 for example.

I’d say the G9ii sensor in a GX9 body couldn’t afford to be much more than the GX9 weight, given the smaller sensor and lower resolution than the A7Cii. The G9ii battery is 50g, the GX9 25g. Could be an issue!

A

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Well I am a great believer in taking a plunge and when I saw a good buy price for a S9 body in Australia I took it. As I have had my VEFinder device in service since my GM1 days I have a device that allows me to turn an LCD into an ersatz evf. I just needed to make another mount stub. Which I did, and I now have a clip on viewfinder that uses the lcd.

The first thing that I notice is the lack of depth in the non-grip which leaves the little finger hanging uselessly off the bottom. Then the shutter button up top removes the index finger from the grip as well. Then there is not enough grip left to wrap your palm around in an attempt to compensate for the missing fingers. The thumb is far too busy just hanging in there to be of much help in controlling the camera body.

Pick up the G9II and the whole hand wraps amazingly well around the grip and the index finger is delightfully placed for the shutter button.

I have often wondered just why there are not more camera bodies after the NEX style which are hybrid bodies with flat top plate and grips similar to the faux dslr with conveniently angled shutter button.

It can be done and a well shaped grip need not project much further than the the lens mount system

Then of course is the issue with thick bodies - maybe it is the battery as you have quite rightly noted - but enlarged grips have hidden larger batteries without the whole body becoming brick-like. To sit the S9 next to the GX9 is to compare a sweet size body with what is at least a sizeable lump if not quite a technical brick.

I don't know the A7c (type) camera body but the specifications suggest that this is another fairly thick camera body with a minimal grip. But at least it has an evf built in.

I am feeling it a bit hard to shake myself out of the sweet, compact, light, and simple, G100 tree. Even the quite compact G100 has a useful enough grip.

Tom Caldwell said:

ahaslett said:

All the processing power needs a big battery. The long side of the cross-section makes the body deep, just as it makes the OM3 wide.

The GX9 is modestly taller, wider, thinner and lighter than the A7Cii. Taller is good, wider is OK. The grip is too small for typical FF lenses, the 20-70/4 for example.

I’d say the G9ii sensor in a GX9 body couldn’t afford to be much more than the GX9 weight, given the smaller sensor and lower resolution than the A7Cii. The G9ii battery is 50g, the GX9 25g. Could be an issue!

A

Click to expand...

Well I am a great believer in taking a plunge and when I saw a good buy price for a S9 body in Australia I took it. As I have had my VEFinder device in service since my GM1 days I have a device that allows me to turn an LCD into an ersatz evf. I just needed to make another mount stub. Which I did, and I now have a clip on viewfinder that uses the lcd.

The first thing that I notice is the lack of depth in the non-grip which leaves the little finger hanging uselessly off the bottom. Then the shutter button up top removes the index finger from the grip as well. Then there is not enough grip left to wrap your palm around in an attempt to compensate for the missing fingers. The thumb is far too busy just hanging in there to be of much help in controlling the camera body.

Pick up the G9II and the whole hand wraps amazingly well around the grip and the index finger is delightfully placed for the shutter button.

I have often wondered just why there are not more camera bodies after the NEX style which are hybrid bodies with flat top plate and grips similar to the faux dslr with conveniently angled shutter button.

It can be done and a well shaped grip need not project much further than the the lens mount system

Then of course is the issue with thick bodies - maybe it is the battery as you have quite rightly noted - but enlarged grips have hidden larger batteries without the whole body becoming brick-like. To sit the S9 next to the GX9 is to compare a sweet size body with what is at least a sizeable lump if not quite a technical brick.

I don't know the A7c (type) camera body but the specifications suggest that this is another fairly thick camera body with a minimal grip. But at least it has an evf built in.

I am feeling it a bit hard to shake myself out of the sweet, compact, light, and simple, G100 tree. Even the quite compact G100 has a useful enough grip.

Click to expand...

I have an A7CR - it has a grip. The grip only just contains the battery. The A7C body is only just a bit thicker than the G100D, although the G100D is deeper from the back of the EVF to the front of the mount. The GX9 has a tiny grip, which is possible because of the very small battery.

Looking at all 3, I prefer the shape of the G100D grip, but the body is not tall enough for comfort with larger lenses.

The G9 and G9ii are bigger and heavier than I want. Although the OM1 is also a bit larger than I want, it is smaller than the G9ii and the grip is very comfortable, even with big lenses.

I find use determines ergonomics, so my thumb falls on either the EC wheel or AF-on button on the A7CR. Using AF-on to choose the subject to be tracked is my standard motion. The A7CR is my only body with sticky tracking, where you leave the AF target centred, pick the subject and then recompose. Watching human subject detection crawl up a leg, over a body and then wait until the head turns towards you to lock an eyeball is like magic.

Different functions, different displays, different controls… On an OM1, switching between SAF with one target to CAF with another using the lever works for me.

A

I’ll be very brief. The A7CII lacks a joystick and after having that on my EM1.3, I won’t buy a camera without it. This is also a gripe I have with the S9. YMMV, but this my 2¢.

mmartel said:

1. Is there evidence that the thermals of Pana's DR boosting, 25mp OSPDAF imaging pipeline and video capabilities work in a smaller body?

2. Is there evidence that sales and profits gained would offset cannibalization of G9ii and S9 (not to mention that mid-market money maker the G97) lines which probably need all the capacity utilization and inventory turnover they can get?

All of this GX8ii wishcasting is understandable but feels ... Hopeless.

Que cerá, cerá. We'll see.

Click to expand...

Maybe all those bemoaning the lack of a GX8 II, and those pining for the mythical PenF II could get together for a special convention. Sony, Fuji, Nikon and Leica could be the sponsors.

gary0319 said:

mmartel said:

1. Is there evidence that the thermals of Pana's DR boosting, 25mp OSPDAF imaging pipeline and video capabilities work in a smaller body?

2. Is there evidence that sales and profits gained would offset cannibalization of G9ii and S9 (not to mention that mid-market money maker the G97) lines which probably need all the capacity utilization and inventory turnover they can get?

All of this GX8ii wishcasting is understandable but feels ... Hopeless.

Que cerá, cerá. We'll see.

Click to expand...

Maybe all those bemoaning the lack of a GX8 II, and those pining for the mythical PenF II could get together for a special convention. Sony, Fuji, Nikon and Leica could be the sponsors.

Click to expand...

They could buy a silver A7Cii and enjoy: PDAF, subject detection, more DR, more resolution, IBIS, better tracking, decent video and a greater selection of lenses at low cost for their shooting envelopes. A dekitted 28-60mm is optically excellent, light, ~£200 and equivalent to MFT 14-30/2-2.8. A Samyang 45/1.8 is 162g and £275. Dustin likes it.

Or they could get an OM3 with two WR f1.8 primes and have semi-fast sensor readout, subject detection, OK tracking and lots of jpeg stuff in a mock-up of a 35mm OM1.

The choice, as you say is theirs!

A cunning plan would be to buy a used OM1 mk I for the larger MFT lenses and the A7Cii/R for access to the huge FE lens catalogue.

A

Simple when you think about it?

ahaslett said:

Tom Caldwell said:

ahaslett said:

All the processing power needs a big battery. The long side of the cross-section makes the body deep, just as it makes the OM3 wide.

The GX9 is modestly taller, wider, thinner and lighter than the A7Cii. Taller is good, wider is OK. The grip is too small for typical FF lenses, the 20-70/4 for example.

I’d say the G9ii sensor in a GX9 body couldn’t afford to be much more than the GX9 weight, given the smaller sensor and lower resolution than the A7Cii. The G9ii battery is 50g, the GX9 25g. Could be an issue!

A

Click to expand...

Well I am a great believer in taking a plunge and when I saw a good buy price for a S9 body in Australia I took it. As I have had my VEFinder device in service since my GM1 days I have a device that allows me to turn an LCD into an ersatz evf. I just needed to make another mount stub. Which I did, and I now have a clip on viewfinder that uses the lcd.

The first thing that I notice is the lack of depth in the non-grip which leaves the little finger hanging uselessly off the bottom. Then the shutter button up top removes the index finger from the grip as well. Then there is not enough grip left to wrap your palm around in an attempt to compensate for the missing fingers. The thumb is far too busy just hanging in there to be of much help in controlling the camera body.

Pick up the G9II and the whole hand wraps amazingly well around the grip and the index finger is delightfully placed for the shutter button.

I have often wondered just why there are not more camera bodies after the NEX style which are hybrid bodies with flat top plate and grips similar to the faux dslr with conveniently angled shutter button.

It can be done and a well shaped grip need not project much further than the the lens mount system

Then of course is the issue with thick bodies - maybe it is the battery as you have quite rightly noted - but enlarged grips have hidden larger batteries without the whole body becoming brick-like. To sit the S9 next to the GX9 is to compare a sweet size body with what is at least a sizeable lump if not quite a technical brick.

I don't know the A7c (type) camera body but the specifications suggest that this is another fairly thick camera body with a minimal grip. But at least it has an evf built in.

I am feeling it a bit hard to shake myself out of the sweet, compact, light, and simple, G100 tree. Even the quite compact G100 has a useful enough grip.

Click to expand...

I have an A7CR - it has a grip. The grip only just contains the battery. The A7C body is only just a bit thicker than the G100D, although the G100D is deeper from the back of the EVF to the front of the mount. The GX9 has a tiny grip, which is possible because of the very small battery.

Click to expand...

An interesting discussion but I only know three models - S9, G100 & GX9/GX7. Thanks for the addition of your knowledge of the A7cr.

The ultimate changes to the top plate of the GX9 reduced the "just right" layout of the GX7 where the ball of the thumb sat right where it could easily be used covering the back wheel. The hand still retracted the little finger under the body but scrunches itself up to become a full palm comfortable grip. The GX7 grip was also little larger because they angled the battery location the grip - another ergonomic demerit in the GX9 version.

The G100/D is not quite as comfortable with the user pushed into a similar style grip but tends to "get away with it" as being another fairly light compact body. So wrangling the body is not a big deal and the back wheel around the "D" pad, whilst not ideal, has just the right amount of sensitivity. Presently the G100 body I have to hand is sporting the big-lump Kamlan 70/1.1 that arrived on my doorstep just recently - so perhaps not a good physical comparison to the neat and sweet adapted MF Jupiter 37A 135/3.5 that has been residing on my GX7 for some time now.

The S9 is a "porker" with apologies to cute little Disneyland memes. Has all the same issues of a grip-less RF-Style camera body. I have installed an after-market shaped wooden grip - nice shape but oh-so slippery that I have had to instal some strips of Cats-tongue anti-slip material (front and thumb rest) to try and make it good-grip comfortable. Whilst the G100/D (type) can be excused its lower rear wheel because it is a light body the S9 does not have this advantage. I get the impression of clinging on to the S9 for dear life more than gripping it. If this is a compact RF-Style FF camera body then maybe if it had a genuine evf then it could at least be used with traditional stance and grip with eye to evf. But even with my VEFinder and using it as an ersatz evf off the lcd it is a handful.

Maybe I err with the S9 in trying to use it with larger lenses - maybe I am spoiled because the GM5 (tiny) can be used with a multiplicity of lenses by using the evf and standard eye to evf gripping.

In defence of the S9 - it is basically sold as a video capture camera and although I quite like what it does it really misses a built in evf and a not-slippery standard well-shaped grip.

ahaslett said:

Looking at all 3, I prefer the shape of the G100D grip, but the body is not tall enough for comfort with larger lenses.

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I can see what you mean but the G100 is addictive enough for me to forgive it larger lenses. At least the great evf (even in the original model) allows standard grip with eye to evf.

I have just pulled my Samsung NX10 out of retirement - this is the compact little camera that had a real chance to make Samsung's ML future. I can't find the spare batteries at the moment but it was a well loved temporary diversion and luckily I didn't invest more in Samsung at the time. However the surprise is that it is almost precisely the G100 size, shape, and simple get it done user feedback. A compact delight. Can't wait to get it fired up again and see how it compares to its style-cousin so many years later.

ahaslett said:

The G9 and G9ii are bigger and heavier than I want. Although the OM1 is also a bit larger than I want, it is smaller than the G9ii and the grip is very comfortable, even with big lenses.

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The G9/G9II are indeed larger but are both very comfortable to hold with every type of lens and give me the variety of more powerful cameras to supplement the smaller bodies. I can imagine that the OM1 is likewise.

ahaslett said:

I find use determines ergonomics, so my thumb falls on either the EC wheel or AF-on button on the A7CR. Using AF-on to choose the subject to be tracked is my standard motion. The A7CR is my only body with sticky tracking, where you leave the AF target centred, pick the subject and then recompose. Watching human subject detection crawl up a leg, over a body and then wait until the head turns towards you to lock an eyeball is like magic.

Click to expand...

The A7cr seems to have made a better "fist" of being a RF-Style FF camera body than Panasonic with its S9. Surprisingly so considering that Panasonic has some significant runs on the board already with its RF-Style bodies for M4/3 mount.

ahaslett said:

Different functions, different displays, different controls… On an OM1, switching between SAF with one target to CAF with another using the lever works for me.

A

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Just upgrade the GX8.

• Better IBIS
• Improved mechanical shutter
• higher resolution EVF
• GH7 / G9 II sensor with PDAF

Otherwise, the GX8 is just about perfect.
Handling and ergonomics are excellent, with a reasonably sized grip.
The 4:3 aspect ratio TILTING EVF is fantastic, it just needs more resolution.

A good number of external controls and programmable Fn buttons.
It’s just a great all-around camera.

Move the accursed DISP button or make it lockable.

That’s about it.