unhappymeal
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I am going to be very sad if Panasonic ever leaves the camera market. They are just amazing at UI design.
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The M43 problem - It too good to abandon
- Thread starter Thomas Kachadurian
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- nikon OM System / Olympus
MJ_Photo38
Veteran Member
I agree that the featureset that a MFT kit gives you in a given form factor is currently unmatched.
I've been blown away by my E-M1 mark II, and especially what it can do, especially seeing the size of the lenses needed.
I remember when I was shooting with my Fuji X-H1 or Nikon Z6 for the same instances, and the size was simply too limiting and I had to limit my kit. Not with MFT.
It's not the perfect system, and I'm still shooting both full frame and APS-C, but I can't justify leaving MFT at all, it's too versatile for me to even consider it.
I've been blown away by my E-M1 mark II, and especially what it can do, especially seeing the size of the lenses needed.
I remember when I was shooting with my Fuji X-H1 or Nikon Z6 for the same instances, and the size was simply too limiting and I had to limit my kit. Not with MFT.
It's not the perfect system, and I'm still shooting both full frame and APS-C, but I can't justify leaving MFT at all, it's too versatile for me to even consider it.
Sam Bennett
Veteran Member
Are they though? I think there's still the usual forum trolls pushing this tired claim, but I'm not hearing that a lot outside of forums. If you look at YouTube, there's a lot of positivity going around - including people coming back or into the system for the first time. This is very different than what we've seen even a year ago. I feel like the tide has really turned and the trolls are behind the curve.
Needless to say, I agree with all of this. I've really never been happier as an MFT user. In fact, the only gear debate in my head right now is if I should unload my L-Mount gear!
FWIW, I'm not really concerned. I also don't really buy that OMS' is somehow going to be put in a position where they're the only camera manufacturer keeping MFT afloat. We don't see a lot of LUMIX-related activity here since this is primarily a photography-centric forum and they've been slow with releases recently, but if you look at the market LUMIX bodies still retain their value which says that someone is buying them - likely filmmakers or small content creators who simply don't hang out on this forum.
Other evidence that MFT is fine is you still have tons of third party manufacturers producing new lenses for the system. Why would they bother if the system was dying?
Woody Meristem
Senior Member
A large part of the issue is that good enough is usually good enough. My cameras and lenses produce images that are good enough for what I both want and need. There's no reason for me to purchase new product and that's true for many users -- sorry JIP and Panasonic I just don't need new stuff.
Gosh it's been a long time since I posted anything here but it was because of these sorts of anti-m43 sentiments I came back.
I'd agree that the good enough is good enough sentiments but I'm also planning to avoid any future expenditures in other consumer goods (phones, computers, etc.) to prioritise buying a new m43 camera at some point. I do feel like, as good as the second hand market is and I almost exclusively have used it, I would like the companies to continue making for M43 so maybe I should get something new when I can afford it.
My GX7 and EM1mk1 are still very good and going strong, but I would like to have a G9ii or an OM3 to go with them. I am however going to wait and see what happens with the Esquisse camera as well. That could be interesting. Or it could flop.
One of the things people underrate in my experience is how easy it is to get a GX7 and a 45mm 1.8 into a music gig without drawing any attention. The EM1 gets terrible banding in e-shutter with those lights but for some reason the GX7 is seemingly immune.
I'd agree that the good enough is good enough sentiments but I'm also planning to avoid any future expenditures in other consumer goods (phones, computers, etc.) to prioritise buying a new m43 camera at some point. I do feel like, as good as the second hand market is and I almost exclusively have used it, I would like the companies to continue making for M43 so maybe I should get something new when I can afford it.
My GX7 and EM1mk1 are still very good and going strong, but I would like to have a G9ii or an OM3 to go with them. I am however going to wait and see what happens with the Esquisse camera as well. That could be interesting. Or it could flop.
One of the things people underrate in my experience is how easy it is to get a GX7 and a 45mm 1.8 into a music gig without drawing any attention. The EM1 gets terrible banding in e-shutter with those lights but for some reason the GX7 is seemingly immune.
It just doesn't feel the same.
It's like using a phone with a shutter button.
It doesn't feel like a camera in hand or have the buttons or dials.
The evf is a big part for me
I just don't see the point spending that money on a phone when I have a decent one already and a good camera
I mean you must know why a camera over a phone if you still use one yourself?
It's like using a phone with a shutter button.
It doesn't feel like a camera in hand or have the buttons or dials.
The evf is a big part for me
I just don't see the point spending that money on a phone when I have a decent one already and a good camera
I mean you must know why a camera over a phone if you still use one yourself?
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Sam Bennett
Veteran Member
Honestly, it's impossible to say. VC's in the US can be pretty brutal and have very time-bound expectations - ex. achieve X amount of growth in 2 years, or else we're out (which typically means selling the company to someone else). But in Japan? I don't really know. Their laws are difference, their ethics are different, and their sense of pride is different. If JIP is good, generally, financially they may continue to prop up OMDS for years if they really believe in it and see it as important to the overall Japanese market.
It seems highly likely that OMDS is structured to report small profits or losses. Typically cash would be extracted by management fees paid to JIP and IP license fees paid to a separate company that acquired the IP from Olympus, located in a low tax domicile.Honestly, it's impossible to say. VC's in the US can be pretty brutal and have very time-bound expectations - ex. achieve X amount of growth in 2 years, or else we're out (which typically means selling the company to someone else). But in Japan? I don't really know. Their laws are difference, their ethics are different, and their sense of pride is different. If JIP is good, generally, financially they may continue to prop up OMDS for years if they really believe in it and see it as important to the overall Japanese market.
Beneficial ownership of this IPCo and OMDS would be through an SPV owned between the original investors and the JIP partners.
What matters is cash generation and low tax rates on cash extracted. The IPCo would "pay" for further R&D etc.
As a private company, we can tell very little from reading any accounts. The assignment of any new patents by OMDS employees might be interesting, although there are lots of tricks there as well.
JIP will be masters of financial and legal structures and reporting requirements in different domiciles.
Look at the pattern of discounts and clearouts of SLOBS vs quarter end reporting on cash by OMDS to JIP.
Andrew
Trevor Carpenter
Forum Pro
I can't be the only person whose m4/3s kit is irreplaceable. No other manufacturer produces a camera and lens combination that meets my criteria of performance , price and weight.
GreenEyesGTA
Forum Enthusiast
This is basically it for me too. I'm still on a GH4 which now is >10 years out of date, but it's indestructible and I don't really see the need for an upgrade...
It's really the lenses though. The variety, the cost (yes, cost matters to me), the size, the "open standard" that provides 3rd party lenses, the ease of adapting film lenses.
unhappymeal
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I use a camera for the capabilities that I cannot do with my phone. The S9 and S5 II come out for 6k open gate video and shooting stills with f/1.8 primes or with the 24-60 f/2.8.
Revealing my bias here, but I have the Xiaomi Ultra 15 with the camera kit. It feels almost the same as a Ricoh GR III in hand. It has fewer buttons than the Ricoh, but it does have one dial just like it. It really feels like using a camera similar to the Leica TL2, Sigma BF, Sigma fp, Powershot V1 or RX100VII. Xiaomi has done a very, very good job. I have been using it for a week now and can honestly say that I do not miss my GR IIIx or OM-3.
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SOTOK
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When you compare like for like, FF cannot match the performance or size/weight. You always end up paying more and carrying more with larger formats.
unhappymeal
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That's fine. My phone with a 1" sensor has replaced m4/3 for walk around from 12mm - 200mm (including pseudo macro). It's smaller than my GM5 with the 12-32 + 35-100. Better output too.
SOTOK
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The strange bugger behavior persists in addition to other factors that kept buyers away. Some are minor - control dials required to change focus mode or burst rate, slow startup time, lack of frame limiter in bursts, painfully slow focus bracketing, mediocre battery life, no flash with electronic shutter, a host of HHHR issues, overgrown file sizes, poor dynamic range at certain burst rates, shutter speeds and ISO's. The diehard Lumix buyers might look past those. Most importantly however, the AF was still lacking (it gives up measuring focus above 6 frames per second).
The G9II never lived up to expectations set by the G9 despite the PDAF hype. Lumix tried drastic discounts, promotions and incentives but it never got off the ground. What else can they offer? The Gh7 at least found a home among creators. It was not innovative like the Gh5 but it makes good use of existing m43 lenses.
Tony Hall
Senior Member
"The biggest problem with our format is that it's just too good. Oh, MFT I wish I could quit you!" 
Y'all certainly do post about your sensors/system more than anyone else by far.
Y'all certainly do post about your sensors/system more than anyone else by far.
David Kieltyka
Veteran Member
I bought a G9ii earlier this year, mainly to have a newer camera just in case my GX8s (one 10 years old, the other 7) die before I do and can't be replaced. I've ended up liking it enough that it's become my main m43 camera, but I still use the GX8s too. I plan to have the newer GX8 converted to full-spectrum so I can shoot infrared with it.
Lens-wise, like you I'm all set and have been for a long time.
-Dave-
Both my MFT and FE kits are “irreplaceable” through specific choices. Matching my walk around FE kit would cost the same as I paid for the FE body plus lens, with lower resolution and DR for a kit weight of 1.35kg MFT and 1.00kg FE. The MFT lens has a small amount more light gathering but a much shorter FL range.
Matching my GM1 or OM5 kits is not possible in FF in terms of weight or cost. The OM1 is the cheapest fast readout sensor body with subject recognition and smaller tele lenses available. However, it’s readout speed is much less than FF flagships and it’s AF system is not class leading - still the OM1 is for me.
MFT tele lenses can be expensive - for example the new OM 50-200/2.8 is £2,999 and the Sony 100-400 GM is £2,149. The GM gathers more light at the wide end and can be mounted on much higher resolution bodies. I bought a used 300/4 on weight grounds instead of a discounted 200-600mm G. The used MFT lens was 25% more expensive than the new FE one, but much lighter.
So, for any individual buyer, which is best depends on uses and priorities. There is no inevitability of MFT being lighter, cheaper and better than FF. Being a dual mount user of the two mounts with the largest selection of bodies and lenses, and the largest inventories of used kit, is a plus for me.
You will note that in my first post, I celebrated OP’s happiness with his kit, something that I share. I’m pleased that attempts to start a fight with other system users haven’t sparked the usual car crash, but there is still time before the thread maxes out.
A
HicHic
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I held off on getting the G9ii for the longest time because of the drawbacks you've mentioned. In practice, a lot of those aren't really big issues, or there are workarounds. The strengths of the camera makes up for it enough that it's my go-to over the OM-1 now.
bluevellet
Senior Member
... with the bolded statement here.
The Z5II is quite a lot of camera for the price. And many of their F4 zooms are excellent (I own 2 of them). They do lack small primes (there are only 3), but I particularly like the 26mm f2.8 (their only pancake prime) despite some obvious design flaws. Fun lens.
And then there's APSC, something closer in size to m43. One thing Nikon does right with their APSC line is pricing. Cameras are relatively affordable and the lenses, while most are not pro level, are surprisingly cheap for what you get. The newly announced 16-50 f2.8 VR is a tad bigger yet lighter than the Olympus 12-40 f2.8 Pro. Not bad for APSC.
I just wish there was more than (6-7?) Nikon APSC lenses and of course there's no weather-sealing or IBIS (some lenses have optical stabilisation). That's restricted to FF (for now?).
Thomas Kachadurian
Senior Member
Indeed you are correct, but...
Do I need a semi truck to ship a 100 pound box.
Outside of pixel peeping, I have never come up against a task where my M43 images were not up to the challenge. And I publish a lot of images in many different way.
FF is clearly better in terms of absolute image quality at the pixel level, but other than on a computer screen at 100%, who uses more than about 4000x2500 pixels.
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