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Z6III - Worse Low Light AF Than Z6?

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DLZ-Au

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Hi everyone,

I recently updated to a Z6III, and while I'm appreciating the additional features and customisation over my old Z6, I've noticed that the low light AF performance is significantly worse.

In approx. 2EV lighting, the focus becomes slow to respond to button presses and seems to "slide" into focus rather than snap like it does in good light. The way it's acting is like it's using contrast detect rather than phase detect.

The older Z6 by comparison feels a lot more confident and responsive in the same conditions.

I've tried my 24-120, 105 macro and 50mm 1.8 which all show the same behaviour.

I'll see if I can get some videos of what I'm experiencing.

I've tried:

Resetting custom settings and full factory reset

All different focus modes and areas with similar results

Updating to Firmware 2.0

Given that one of the selling points for the Z6III was better low light performance, I am rather disappointed.

Is this typical of how a Z6III AF performs in low light, or is there an issue with my specific camera or setup?

Thank you in advance
 
DLZ-Au said:
Hi everyone,

I recently updated to a Z6III, and while I'm appreciating the additional features and customisation over my old Z6, I've noticed that the low light AF performance is significantly worse.

In approx. 2EV lighting, the focus becomes slow to respond to button presses and seems to "slide" into focus rather than snap like it does in good light. The way it's acting is like it's using contrast detect rather than phase detect.

The older Z6 by comparison feels a lot more confident and responsive in the same conditions.

I've tried my 24-120, 105 macro and 50mm 1.8 which all show the same behaviour.

I'll see if I can get some videos of what I'm experiencing.

I've tried:

Resetting custom settings and full factory reset

All different focus modes and areas with similar results

Updating to Firmware 2.0

Given that one of the selling points for the Z6III was better low light performance, I am rather disappointed.

Is this typical of how a Z6III AF performs in low light, or is there an issue with my specific camera or setup?

Thank you in advance
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate your settings on both cameras, or better, provide Raw files of scenes you shoot on both cameras where you notice those differences of behaviour ?
 
Had Z6, Z6ii, moved to R6mk2, now I'm back to Z6iii.

I have exactly the same feeling like you; in low light (less than 4 EV), tracking accuracy is very poor (3D-tracking or wide-c1 with subject detection set to humans); also, manual tracking using AF-C with dynamic [S/M] has a low accuracy. Lenses I'm using are 24-120 and 50 1.8 (Z versions). Focus speed is nothing to write home about, but I can live with it.
 
Dynamic modes don’t track.

Don’t have the Lv max aperture setting enabled?
 
Photopills says your 2 EV lighting is approximately f/4, 1/20 s, ISO 6400. My room with a single table lamp's 400lm bulb has similar lighting in parts of the room.

My first reaction is that the AF is quite quick, and I don't see a hesitation.

But AF-S is obviously different than AF-C! The same focus target with AF-C shows a green target box quickly, but AF-S does the CDAF contrast detect step, with the focus moving in and out along with the lens motor sound.

AF-S adds CDAF in dim scenes, where the Z6 typically didn't, unless it's reaching low-light mode.

At 2 EV, the Z6 is sometimes flashing the "Low-light" message, and taking a fraction of a second to build up the low light scene before trying to autofocus. The Z6 iii just handles 2 EV directly.

At 2 EV, the Z6 iii has obviously better AF when the single point target has low detail. It confidently focuses in AF-C, and does small focus racks in AF-S. The Z6 in AF-S will do larger focus racks before finding focus. (I just don't use AF-C with the Z6, since there's no focus confirmation).

Are both cameras equally accurate? I'm assuming so, but didn't zoom in the photos to compare.

I didn't try any subject tracking, just used static targets.

I rarely switch to AF-S with the Z6 iii, since the AF-C is so fast and useful.

~~~

Z6 iii:

AF-S, Pinpoint: This does the CDAF focus confirmation even in bright scenes. That's the normal Pinpoint method. A little slower, but very accurate.

AF-S, Single point or Wide-area small: No CDAF step in bright scenes. Focus is fast without it.

AF-S, Single point or Wide-area small: In 2 EV dim lighting, it's using the CDAF, just like Pinpoint.

AF-C, Single point or Wide-area small: No CDAF step, it goes directly to the green box. So it's a little faster than in AF-S and doesn't have the distracting CDAF focus racking.
 
Last edited:
Here’s an example of what I’m experiencing:


First 30s is the Z6 - note how it confidently focuses between each point in one motion, and relatively quickly too.

The last 30s is the Z6III. Note the beat it takes to think before starting to focusing, the slower “sliding” focus action and how it hunts.

Both are in AF-C and Wide S area. I haven’t used the max aperture mode to keep it a fair comparison with the Z6. Lighting measured around 2.5 - 3EV.

I’m strongly considering returning if this is the expected performance
 
Yip, it doesn't look good.

In your scenario the Z6iii should ace this test.

I have no idea what the problem could be.
 
DLZ-Au said:
Here’s an example of what I’m experiencing:


First 30s is the Z6 - note how it confidently focuses between each point in one motion, and relatively quickly too.

The last 30s is the Z6III. Note the beat it takes to think before starting to focusing, the slower “sliding” focus action and how it hunts.
Both are in AF-C and Wide S area. I haven’t used the max aperture mode to keep it a fair comparison with the Z6. Lighting measured around 2.5 - 3EV.

I’m strongly considering returning if this is the expected performance
Click to expand...
Oh, that's a useful video example.

I tried a similar setting. Z6 iii, 24-120, Aperture priority, AF-C, Wide-area small, ISO 25600, f/4. Shutter speeds were between 1/20 sec and 1/200 sec, in various parts of the room.

Holding the AF-On and panning between near and far targets, I get the same delays. If I just press AF-On without moving the camera, the focus is much faster -- let go AF-On, move to a different target, press AF-On.

~~~

In the dim room, holding the AF-On while panning to near and far targets is slow to refocus. I tried a3: Focus tracking with lock-on, either "fast" or "slow" but this blocked shot AF response setting didn't change the dim light speeds. I tried "Show effects of settings=Adjust for ease of viewing" and that didn't help either.

I notice that the Z6 iii is "reluctant" or "refuses" to focus on a very close target after focusing in the mid distances while holding down the AF-On. The red AF box starts blinking: is that a "I give up" indication? I suppose that's to avoid foreground interference while focusing? I sometimes have to let go of AF-On, press it again, and then it focuses quickly on either the near or on the far target.

With a brighter floor lamp, panning focusing is faster. At 1/200 to 1/640, f/4, ISO 25600: The focus box mostly stays green as I pan, with some brief red AF box flashes before it turns green again, if that target has less detail in it.

I typically shoot static scenes at night, so I just press the AF-On as needed. I'm not trying to track a moving subject -- that might be difficult. A moving subject is going to be blurred at these high ISOs with slow shutter speeds anyway.
 
Last edited:
asdaroth said:
Had Z6, Z6ii, moved to R6mk2, now I'm back to Z6iii.

I have exactly the same feeling like you; in low light (less than 4 EV), tracking accuracy is very poor (3D-tracking or wide-c1 with subject detection set to humans); also, manual tracking using AF-C with dynamic [S/M] has a low accuracy. Lenses I'm using are 24-120 and 50 1.8 (Z versions). Focus speed is nothing to write home about, but I can live with it.
Click to expand...
Turn off subject tracking and 3D will be much stickier. C1/C2 the size of your subject are much better modes than 3D when it comes to people or pets.
 
DLZ-Au said:
I’m strongly considering returning if this is the expected performance
Click to expand...
Comparing cameras side-by-side is a tricky business. Turning on all of your display details would help with the video comparison. I did see the low light warning on both.

It looks like low light/starlight mode is being enabled in the low light condition, and that intentionally slows down the focusing mech. I'd also use pinpoint for such low light scenes, and it is set to my U3/landscape/tripod setting. I don't find myself shooting handheld in such low light often enough to worry about it. I toss on an LED panel ($50) or flash. On there lowest setting they make a huge difference.
 
DLZ-Au said:
Here’s an example of what I’m experiencing:

Click to expand...
Not enough information.

Do that same test but:
  • Make sure everything is displayed on the back LCD, not a subset.
  • Make sure you're in AF-C and Auto-area AF.
Now repeat with CSM #A3 set to Quick.

Why this? Because it provides us more information.

FWIW, I just pulled my Z6III up at ISO 25600, f/4 in an unlit interior and I'm not seeing the same issue unless shutter speeds drop below 1/30, and even then I'm not seeing the level of delay you are. With shutter speeds above 1/60, I don't see an issue at all. This is to be expected: focus comes from the viewfinder stream and once you're below the viewfinder refresh rate, and you really want 60 fps going to the focus system.

Still, my camera is far more responsive than yours, so something else is going on.
 
Yeah I just came here to inquire about your AF speed settings. I also just tried my Z6III, firmware 2, ISO25600, f/4, anywhere 1/160-1/640 shutter speed and see no lag. I’m in AF-C, 3D tracking, no subject detect.
 
jlafferty said:
Yeah I just came here to inquire about your AF speed settings. I also just tried my Z6III, firmware 2, ISO25600, f/4, anywhere 1/160-1/640 shutter speed and see no lag. I’m in AF-C, 3D tracking, no subject detect.
Click to expand...
Can you perhaps try again, but with AF Area set to Wide S ?

That's what the OP was using in his example.
 
JacquesC said:
jlafferty said:
Yeah I just came here to inquire about your AF speed settings. I also just tried my Z6III, firmware 2, ISO25600, f/4, anywhere 1/160-1/640 shutter speed and see no lag. I’m in AF-C, 3D tracking, no subject detect.
Click to expand...
Can you perhaps try again, but with AF Area set to Wide S ?

That's what the OP was using in his example.
Click to expand...
No. If I’ve got a technique that works, I don’t bother chasing things that don’t work, it’s a waste of time. I also never use Wide S - my camera is set up to do only three AF modes: Auto-Area, Wide C1 set to a thin strip maybe 1/5 the frame dimensions, 3D tracking.

--
http://jimlafferty.com
Evocative beats academic.
 
Last edited:
jlafferty said:
JacquesC said:
jlafferty said:
Yeah I just came here to inquire about your AF speed settings. I also just tried my Z6III, firmware 2, ISO25600, f/4, anywhere 1/160-1/640 shutter speed and see no lag. I’m in AF-C, 3D tracking, no subject detect.
Click to expand...
Can you perhaps try again, but with AF Area set to Wide S ?

That's what the OP was using in his example.
Click to expand...
No. If I’ve got a technique that works, I don’t bother chasing things that don’t work, it’s a waste of time. I also never use Wide S - my camera is set up to do only three AF modes: Auto-Area, Wide C1 set to a thin strip maybe 1/5 the frame dimensions, 3D tracking.
Click to expand...
3D tracking mode isn't the same as the OP's video method. He was panning from nearby targets to targets across the room. 3D by definition keeps the same target in focus. That's more like my original tests, with pressing AF-On separately for each target -- which is much faster to focus.

In these dark conditions, I think that focusing on one target is more typical, instead of tracking nearby and far away -- since the shutter speeds will likely be too low for moving subjects.
 
Last edited:
jthomas39 said:
jlafferty said:
JacquesC said:
jlafferty said:
Yeah I just came here to inquire about your AF speed settings. I also just tried my Z6III, firmware 2, ISO25600, f/4, anywhere 1/160-1/640 shutter speed and see no lag. I’m in AF-C, 3D tracking, no subject detect.
Click to expand...
Can you perhaps try again, but with AF Area set to Wide S ?

That's what the OP was using in his example.
Click to expand...
No. If I’ve got a technique that works, I don’t bother chasing things that don’t work, it’s a waste of time. I also never use Wide S - my camera is set up to do only three AF modes: Auto-Area, Wide C1 set to a thin strip maybe 1/5 the frame dimensions, 3D tracking.
Click to expand...
3D tracking mode isn't the same as the OP's video method. He was panning from nearby targets to targets across the room. 3D by definition keeps the same target in focus. That's more like my original tests, with pressing AF-On separately for each target -- which is much faster to focus.

In these dark conditions, focusing on one target is more typical, instead of tracking nearby and far away -- since the shutter speeds will likely be too low for moving subjects.
Click to expand...
Yeah I don’t get your point. You’re welcome to pursue copying exactly what the OP is doing in an effort to prove… the worst AF mode to use in this scenario? There might even be something that performs even slower than the OP’s method. And if you arrive at that conclusion I’m not sure the purpose of the exercise, or the value of that knowledge apart from knowing what to avoid.

OTOH if your goal is to move from one subject/object to another in a dimly lit room and get photos that are in focus where you want them, my method works. AFAIK this is skill set that’s very basic and central to being a photographer, as opposed to someone writing about camera problems on a forum. It’s easy to get the two confused and you’ve got to choose which you’d rather pursue with your time. Not saying this is what the OP is doing but this forum has a few very vocal people confusing the two regularly.

As an aside, I could be wrong, and maybe Tom can clarify, but my understanding of the Wide Area AF modes is that they’re designed to be used, ideally, in conjunction with subject detect enabled. The point of the wide areas is to designate priority within the frame and leave a lot of distracting elements or movement out of consideration for AF tracking. For example, focusing on one specific person within a crowd of competing faces, using subject detect. As a result I wouldn’t offer wide area AF as a productive strategy for “shooting random objects in my house.”

--
http://jimlafferty.com
Evocative beats academic.
 
Last edited:
jlafferty said:
jthomas39 said:
jlafferty said:
JacquesC said:
jlafferty said:
Yeah I just came here to inquire about your AF speed settings. I also just tried my Z6III, firmware 2, ISO25600, f/4, anywhere 1/160-1/640 shutter speed and see no lag. I’m in AF-C, 3D tracking, no subject detect.
Click to expand...
Can you perhaps try again, but with AF Area set to Wide S ?

That's what the OP was using in his example.
Click to expand...
No. If I’ve got a technique that works, I don’t bother chasing things that don’t work, it’s a waste of time. I also never use Wide S - my camera is set up to do only three AF modes: Auto-Area, Wide C1 set to a thin strip maybe 1/5 the frame dimensions, 3D tracking.
Click to expand...
3D tracking mode isn't the same as the OP's video method. He was panning from nearby targets to targets across the room. 3D by definition keeps the same target in focus. That's more like my original tests, with pressing AF-On separately for each target -- which is much faster to focus.

In these dark conditions, focusing on one target is more typical, instead of tracking nearby and far away -- since the shutter speeds will likely be too low for moving subjects.
Click to expand...
Yeah I don’t get your point. You’re welcome to pursue copying exactly what the OP is doing in an effort to prove… the worst AF mode to use in this scenario? There might even be something that performs even slower than the OP’s method. And if you arrive at that conclusion I’m not sure the purpose of the exercise, or the value of that knowledge apart from knowing what to avoid.

OTOH if your goal is to move from one subject/object to another in a dimly lit room and get photos that are in focus where you want them, my method works. AFAIK this is skill set that’s very basic and central to being a photographer, as opposed to someone writing about camera problems on a forum. It’s easy to get the two confused and you’ve got to choose which you’d rather pursue with your time. Not saying this is what the OP is doing but this forum has a few very vocal people confusing the two regularly.

As an aside, I could be wrong, and maybe Tom can clarify, but my understanding of the Wide Area AF modes is that they’re designed to be used, ideally, in conjunction with subject detect enabled. The point of the wide areas is to designate priority within the frame and leave a lot of distracting elements or movement out of consideration for AF tracking. For example, focusing on one specific person within a crowd of competing faces, using subject detect. As a result I wouldn’t offer wide area AF as a productive strategy for “shooting random objects in my house.”
Click to expand...
Hey, we are agreeing. My Z6 iii works great for me in low light, as does your similar methods.

I don't hold down the AF-On and switch targets like in the video, so it works effectively when I do press the AF-On. And your points about choosing the correct AF box for the situation is good.
 
My Z6iii is very capable in low light. Much better than my Z7.

Don't know what your problem is. Either some bad user settings or a camera fault.

Most of us are getting better results.
 
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