F8 full frame equivalent on aps-c

Yes. Film required an exposure centric workflow. The first step was to determine the desired exposure. You then load film designed for that exposure. The workflow is then built around hitting that target. Film photographers had it drilled into them that if they had to keep aperture and shutter balanced. Change one, and you had to make a corresponding change to the other.
Not quite. As an amateur, the film in my camera was whatever I loaded the last time. I stopped developing my own negatives and printing myself to avoid all that mess. Just by eyeballing my negatives, the exposure was all over the place. Yet, the prints looked good. Film has a wide tolerance not just for under exposure but for overexposure as well. With digital, it is a brick wall, and you must be careful.
Digital is not a brick wall. It's only a brick wall if you set your camera to expect a specific target exposure and shoot JPEG. That's similar to shooting transparencies.

With digital, you can set your camera to Auto-ISO and tolerate a much wider ranger of exposures than with film. With film, you also had issues with tone curve changes as you moved away from the recommended target exposure.
Now we shoot digital, and we are no longer required to work that way. Under the hood, digital does not work the same as film. Unlike film, digital sensors have a wide range of exposures where they will produce good results. The concept of digital ISO-speed is a fabrication intended to ease the transition from film to digital (that's according to the spec itself).
No. The high ISO of digital cameras also serves the purpose of lowering the noise in low light.
That's not part of the ISO Digital Speed specification, and is not implemented in all cameras.

In fact, some cameras produce the same raw data, independent of the ISO setting. For those cameras, the ISO setting only affects how the raw data is interpreted. These cameras are conforming to the ISO spec.
With digital you can alter the aperture and leave the shutter unchanged. Auto-ISO handles maintaining constant image lightness.
You can do that with film, too but with digital, you cab blow the highlights. In both cases, there are penalties, just different ones.
Film does not generally offer an Auto-ISO option. Once the film is loaded into the camera, you need to get an exposure consistent with the film's limited response curve.

With digital, the "curve" is flatter, and the flat portion of the curve is much larger.
.

But old habits are hard to change. The industry standardized on relative f/stops and focal lengths. Even though many current photographers never shot film, they are still dealing with choices designed around film.

The industry has been trying to address this. That's where crop factors come from. With the introduction of the digital SLR consumers could use the same lens on full frame DSLRs and small sensors DSLRs. Crop factors are an attempt to explain how the results differ with smaller sensors.

While crop factors are normally applied only to focal length, they also apply to f/stop.

Thus we are left with using equivalent focal length as a proxy for angle of view, and equivalent f/stop as a proxy for aperture diameter.

Yes, this isn't ideal, but it's the way it is.
Your solution is less than ideal, too. I am going to shoot a low light event next weekend. Should I bring my 71mm aperture narrow angle lens or my 52mm aperture “normal angle” lens? BTW, the former is 400/5.6 while the latter is 50/1.2.

How will the AOV of my 46 AOV lens change if I use it on a crop camera? Which dedicated APS-C lens can it replicate?
Yes. No solution is ideal for all situations. No matter what solution you pick, I can find an example where it is not ideal.
This idea of using proxy values is not limited to photography. In the USA one can buy 15 Watt light bulbs that are marketed as 100W equivalent. Wattage is a measure of how much power the bulb uses, not how much light it uses. A 15W bulb only uses 15W. However, it produces the same amount of light as a traditional 100W incandescent bulb.

It's hard to find incandescent bulbs in my local store, but bulbs are still marketed with "equivalent wattage".

"Equivalent wattage" is not a measure of light output.
Actually, it is. It is not a measure of wattage though but it is not meant to be.
Yes, that's a typo on my part. Thanks for catching that.

"Equivalent wattage" is a measure of light output. It confuses many as they think you can't put a 100 Equivalent Watt LED into a fixture labeled "60W Max".
"Equivalent focal length" is not a measure of focal length.
It doesn’t have to be.
But it confuses many who think it is. Take a look on these forums and you will find many posts where someone thinks that when you put a 100mm lens on a 1.5X crop body, the focal length changes to 150mm lens.

There are many posts questioning where the poster "understands" that a 50mm full frame lens on a 1.5X crop body becomes 75mm, but asks what happens to a 50mm crop lens on a crop body? Does that still become 75mm or does it stay 50mm as it was designed for crop cameras?
 
Yes. Film required an exposure centric workflow. The first step was to determine the desired exposure. You then load film designed for that exposure. The workflow is then built around hitting that target. Film photographers had it drilled into them that if they had to keep aperture and shutter balanced. Change one, and you had to make a corresponding change to the other.
Not quite. As an amateur, the film in my camera was whatever I loaded the last time. I stopped developing my own negatives and printing myself to avoid all that mess. Just by eyeballing my negatives, the exposure was all over the place. Yet, the prints looked good. Film has a wide tolerance not just for under exposure but for overexposure as well. With digital, it is a brick wall, and you must be careful.
Digital is not a brick wall. It's only a brick wall if you set your camera to expect a specific target exposure and shoot JPEG. That's similar to shooting transparencies.
Of course, it is a brick wall. The highlights are clipped in RAW.
With digital, you can set your camera to Auto-ISO and tolerate a much wider ranger of exposures than with film.
Only on one side - on the underexposure one. You hit a brick wall fast on the overexposure side.
Now we shoot digital, and we are no longer required to work that way. Under the hood, digital does not work the same as film. Unlike film, digital sensors have a wide range of exposures where they will produce good results. The concept of digital ISO-speed is a fabrication intended to ease the transition from film to digital (that's according to the spec itself).
No. The high ISO of digital cameras also serves the purpose of lowering the noise in low light.
That's not part of the ISO Digital Speed specification, and is not implemented in all cameras.
It does not have to be. It is a fact, though.
In fact, some cameras produce the same raw data, independent of the ISO setting. For those cameras, the ISO setting only affects how the raw data is interpreted. These cameras are conforming to the ISO spec.
The only example I know is a certain Hasselblat. Why mention the outliers?
With digital you can alter the aperture and leave the shutter unchanged. Auto-ISO handles maintaining constant image lightness.
You can do that with film, too but with digital, you can blow the highlights. In both cases, there are penalties, just different ones.
Film does not generally offer an Auto-ISO option. Once the film is loaded into the camera, you need to get an exposure consistent with the film's limited response curve.
Not so limited, and this falls under the category of different penalties I mentioned.
With digital, the "curve" is flatter, and the flat portion of the curve is much larger.
Different penalties.
"Equivalent focal length" is not a measure of focal length.
It doesn’t have to be.
But it confuses many who think it is. Take a look on these forums and you will find many posts where someone thinks that when you put a 100mm lens on a 1.5X crop body, the focal length changes to 150mm lens.

There are many posts questioning where the poster "understands" that a 50mm full frame lens on a 1.5X crop body becomes 75mm, but asks what happens to a 50mm crop lens on a crop body? Does that still become 75mm or does it stay 50mm as it was designed for crop cameras?
Then you answer it, and the problem gets resolved.
 
Yes. Film required an exposure centric workflow. The first step was to determine the desired exposure. You then load film designed for that exposure. The workflow is then built around hitting that target. Film photographers had it drilled into them that if they had to keep aperture and shutter balanced. Change one, and you had to make a corresponding change to the other.
Not quite. As an amateur, the film in my camera was whatever I loaded the last time. I stopped developing my own negatives and printing myself to avoid all that mess. Just by eyeballing my negatives, the exposure was all over the place. Yet, the prints looked good. Film has a wide tolerance not just for under exposure but for overexposure as well. With digital, it is a brick wall, and you must be careful.
Digital is not a brick wall. It's only a brick wall if you set your camera to expect a specific target exposure and shoot JPEG. That's similar to shooting transparencies.
Of course, it is a brick wall. The highlights are clipped in RAW.
There are always walls. However the range of exposures that a digital sensor can capture is much higher than film.

My digital camera can easily handle exposures typical for ISO 100 to past 12,800. Not many films will give you useable results over that range.

Obviously, it's always possible to choose settings that give you an unusable capture. That's true for both film and digital.

With digital, you can set your camera to Auto-ISO and tolerate a much wider ranger of exposures than with film.
Only on one side - on the underexposure one. You hit a brick wall fast on the overexposure side.
Only if you choose settings that result in exposures near the maximum tolerable exposure. That can easily happen if you are exposing digital as if it was film.

It's important to remember that the best exposure strategies for film are not necessarily the best exposure strategies for digital. Film strategies work reasonably well for digital. However the ideal film exposure os often not the ideal digital exposure (by "ideal" I mean the one that maximizes image quality).
Now we shoot digital, and we are no longer required to work that way. Under the hood, digital does not work the same as film. Unlike film, digital sensors have a wide range of exposures where they will produce good results. The concept of digital ISO-speed is a fabrication intended to ease the transition from film to digital (that's according to the spec itself).
No. The high ISO of digital cameras also serves the purpose of lowering the noise in low light.
That's not part of the ISO Digital Speed specification, and is not implemented in all cameras.
It does not have to be. It is a fact, though.
It's a fact in some cameras. It's an implementation detail. It's not something that beginners need to worry about.

My understanding, is that it's not a fact in many smartphones. Smartphones are the most popular camera. It would not be surprising that someone moving to a traditional camera is moving from a smart phone.

The basics concepts of photography, apply equally well to smartphones as interchangeable lens cameras. If an explanation applies to one, but not the other, then it is not a general concept, and may not be best for beginners.
In fact, some cameras produce the same raw data, independent of the ISO setting. For those cameras, the ISO setting only affects how the raw data is interpreted. These cameras are conforming to the ISO spec.
The only example I know is a certain Hasselblat. Why mention the outliers?
To demonstrate that it is an implementation detail and not an important component of ISO.

With digital you can alter the aperture and leave the shutter unchanged. Auto-ISO handles maintaining constant image lightness.
You can do that with film, too but with digital, you can blow the highlights. In both cases, there are penalties, just different ones.
Film does not generally offer an Auto-ISO option. Once the film is loaded into the camera, you need to get an exposure consistent with the film's limited response curve.
Not so limited, and this falls under the category of different penalties I mentioned.
Once the film is in the camera your range of usable exposures is much more limited than with a digital camera.

Compare a traditional 35mm SLR with ISO 100 film to a modern full frame digital camera. The digital camera will produce good images over a much wider range of exposures.

With digital, the "curve" is flatter, and the flat portion of the curve is much larger.
Different penalties.
Yes. Digital is not the same as film. Treating digital as film is not best practice. The use of relative aperture instead of aperture diameter is a result of film's enforced "exposure centric" workflow.

The exposure centric workflow is so ingrained in our psyche that many photographers can't imagine any other way of doing things.

Many beginners start out by learning how to maintain a constant exposure when adjusting shutter or aperture. This is a skill that is critical for film, but not for digital. There is no need for a digital beginner to worry about maintaining a fixed target exposure.

"Equivalent focal length" is not a measure of focal length.
It doesn’t have to be.
But it confuses many who think it is. Take a look on these forums and you will find many posts where someone thinks that when you put a 100mm lens on a 1.5X crop body, the focal length changes to 150mm lens.

There are many posts questioning where the poster "understands" that a 50mm full frame lens on a 1.5X crop body becomes 75mm, but asks what happens to a 50mm crop lens on a crop body? Does that still become 75mm or does it stay 50mm as it was designed for crop cameras?
Then you answer it, and the problem gets resolved.
No, the problem is that the current methods confuse people. Spending time trying to undo that confusion is doesn't resolve that underlying problem.

The better solution is to use less confusing terminology.
 
Yes. Film required an exposure centric workflow. The first step was to determine the desired exposure. You then load film designed for that exposure. The workflow is then built around hitting that target. Film photographers had it drilled into them that if they had to keep aperture and shutter balanced. Change one, and you had to make a corresponding change to the other.
Not quite. As an amateur, the film in my camera was whatever I loaded the last time. I stopped developing my own negatives and printing myself to avoid all that mess. Just by eyeballing my negatives, the exposure was all over the place. Yet, the prints looked good. Film has a wide tolerance not just for under exposure but for overexposure as well. With digital, it is a brick wall, and you must be careful.
Digital is not a brick wall. It's only a brick wall if you set your camera to expect a specific target exposure and shoot JPEG. That's similar to shooting transparencies.
Of course, it is a brick wall. The highlights are clipped in RAW.
There are always walls. However the range of exposures that a digital sensor can capture is much higher than film.
On one side only. You can overexpose film, relative it its intended exposure, by many more stops, and still get a good photo. With digital, you can hit the wall even with standard camera decided exposure in harsh light.
My digital camera can easily handle exposures typical for ISO 100 to past 12,800. Not many films will give you useable results over that range.
Of course, but your camera has many films under the hood. Not to mention an ISO setting, which you do not like.
Obviously, it's always possible to choose settings that give you an unusable capture. That's true for both film and digital.
With digital, you can set your camera to Auto-ISO and tolerate a much wider ranger of exposures than with film.
Only on one side - on the underexposure one. You hit a brick wall fast on the overexposure side.
Only if you choose settings that result in exposures near the maximum tolerable exposure. That can easily happen if you are exposing digital as if it was film.
This happens every single time I shoot at ISO 100, which is the case with the majority of my shots. I do not blow the highlights every single time but I have to be careful about it all the time. I never had to worry about blown highlights with film.
It's important to remember that the best exposure strategies for film are not necessarily the best exposure strategies for digital. Film strategies work reasonably well for digital. However the ideal film exposure os often not the ideal digital exposure (by "ideal" I mean the one that maximizes image quality).
One of the ideal exposure strategies with digital (ETTR) is to almost blow the highlights. It is like walking at the edge of a cliff for the best view but one wrong step...
Now we shoot digital, and we are no longer required to work that way. Under the hood, digital does not work the same as film. Unlike film, digital sensors have a wide range of exposures where they will produce good results. The concept of digital ISO-speed is a fabrication intended to ease the transition from film to digital (that's according to the spec itself).
No. The high ISO of digital cameras also serves the purpose of lowering the noise in low light.
That's not part of the ISO Digital Speed specification, and is not implemented in all cameras.
It does not have to be. It is a fact, though.
It's a fact in some cameras. It's an implementation detail. It's not something that beginners need to worry about.
In all I am aware of (at least current or recent) but one. It is something beginners need to know. High ISO lowers noise, in general. It is not an "implementation detail," it is the whole point. Without it, the manufacturers could just alter the JPEG processing as it was with some ancient P&S cameras.
The only example I know is a certain Hasselblat. Why mention the outliers?
To demonstrate that it is an implementation detail and not an important component of ISO.
It is the whole point of ISO in our cameras.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
It is a point of reference.
Yes. I am well aware. Nonetheless, everything I've said thus far has been my own opinion only. Some people think crop factors are an indispensable tool and I respect that view. Obviously the concept is well embedded in the industry's marketing materials. I just think it creates more confusion than clarity as evidenced by the never ending questions about it in this forum.
I disagree.

The confusion is caused by using terminology based on hitting a predetermined target exposure. This is critical when shooting film.

If you want to avoid confusion, we should be talking about angle of view, not focal length. If we want to avoid confusion we should be talking about aperture diameter, not the ratio of the focal length to the diameter.

.

Unfortunately, that change isn't going to happen anytime soon. We are stuck with a system where people use settings where the results differ with sensor size.

Equivalence is an attempt to reduce confusion by helping beginners understand that the results from f/8 or from 50mm can vary from camera to camera.

.

Personally, I think things would be clearer if we did use angle of view and aperture diameter. At the same shutter speed, aperture diameter, and angle of view, you get the same results from all cameras. That's far simpler than explaining that f/5.6 on your APS-C camera gives the same result as f/8 on a full frame, or f/4 on M43.
Photographers have been using f/ numbers for over 250 years, you're going to have some difficulty changing things now.
Yes. Film required an exposure centric workflow. The first step was to determine the desired exposure. You then load film designed for that exposure. The workflow is then built around hitting that target. Film photographers had it drilled into them that if they had to keep aperture and shutter balanced. Change one, and you had to make a corresponding change to the other.

Now we shoot digital, and we are no longer required to work that way. Under the hood, digital does not work the same as film. Unlike film, digital sensors have a wide range of exposures where they will produce good results. The concept of digital ISO-speed is a fabrication intended to ease the transition from film to digital (that's according to the spec itself).

With digital you can alter the aperture and leave the shutter unchanged. Auto-ISO handles maintaining constant image lightness.

.

But old habits are hard to change. The industry standardized on relative f/stops and focal lengths. Even though many current photographers never shot film, they are still dealing with choices designed around film.

The industry has been trying to address this. That's where crop factors come from. With the introduction of the digital SLR consumers could use the same lens on full frame DSLRs and small sensors DSLRs. Crop factors are an attempt to explain how the results differ with smaller sensors.

While crop factors are normally applied only to focal length, they also apply to f/stop.

Thus we are left with using equivalent focal length as a proxy for angle of view, and equivalent f/stop as a proxy for aperture diameter.

Yes, this isn't ideal, but it's the way it is.

This idea of using proxy values is not limited to photography. In the USA one can buy 15 Watt light bulbs that are marketed as 100W equivalent. Wattage is a measure of how much power the bulb uses, not how much light it uses. A 15W bulb only uses 15W. However, it produces the same amount of light as a traditional 100W incandescent bulb.

It's hard to find incandescent bulbs in my local store, but bulbs are still marketed with "equivalent wattage".

"Equivalent wattage" is not a measure of light output. "Equivalent focal length" is not a measure of focal length. We are probably stuck with both.
The thing is that Focal length is a lens characteristic so a 100mm lens is a 100mm lens what ever sensor one uses. Likewise Aperture Value (f/ number) is a lens characteristic that is used to compare lenses as much as to determine exposure.

Aperture diameter is more complex because what we. are actually talking about is Entrance Pupil Diameter, which isn't necessarily equal to or even related to any lens dimension. Since the entrance pupil and the focal length are lens characteristics, it follows that the f/ number is also a lens characteristic. After all it is simply the focal length divided by the entrance pupil diameter in mm.

The problem only arises if one wants to achieve the same angle of view, entrance pupil and depth of field on two different sized sensors. Thus for a full frame camera with a 120mm lens with a 30mm entrance pupil, f/4, With a cropped sensor of APS C size the same angle of view is achieved by an 80mm lens and an entrance pupil of 30mm gives f/2.6. If you want to call that equivalence so be it. However, what you have also done is to negate the benefits of the smaller sensor by requiring a physically bigger lens.

Light output is somewhat different, incandescent bulbs were sold by power consumption, LED lamps are sold by brightness in Lumen. Thus, if you look on Amazon you'll get all sorts of equivalent wattages for a 50W GU10 lamp.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
It is a point of reference.
Yes. I am well aware. Nonetheless, everything I've said thus far has been my own opinion only. Some people think crop factors are an indispensable tool and I respect that view. Obviously the concept is well embedded in the industry's marketing materials. I just think it creates more confusion than clarity as evidenced by the never ending questions about it in this forum.
I disagree.

The confusion is caused by using terminology based on hitting a predetermined target exposure. This is critical when shooting film.

If you want to avoid confusion, we should be talking about angle of view, not focal length. If we want to avoid confusion we should be talking about aperture diameter, not the ratio of the focal length to the diameter.

.

Unfortunately, that change isn't going to happen anytime soon. We are stuck with a system where people use settings where the results differ with sensor size.

Equivalence is an attempt to reduce confusion by helping beginners understand that the results from f/8 or from 50mm can vary from camera to camera.

.

Personally, I think things would be clearer if we did use angle of view and aperture diameter. At the same shutter speed, aperture diameter, and angle of view, you get the same results from all cameras. That's far simpler than explaining that f/5.6 on your APS-C camera gives the same result as f/8 on a full frame, or f/4 on M43.
Photographers have been using f/ numbers for over 250 years, you're going to have some difficulty changing things now.
Yes. Film required an exposure centric workflow. The first step was to determine the desired exposure. You then load film designed for that exposure. The workflow is then built around hitting that target. Film photographers had it drilled into them that if they had to keep aperture and shutter balanced. Change one, and you had to make a corresponding change to the other.

Now we shoot digital, and we are no longer required to work that way. Under the hood, digital does not work the same as film. Unlike film, digital sensors have a wide range of exposures where they will produce good results. The concept of digital ISO-speed is a fabrication intended to ease the transition from film to digital (that's according to the spec itself).

With digital you can alter the aperture and leave the shutter unchanged. Auto-ISO handles maintaining constant image lightness.

.

But old habits are hard to change. The industry standardized on relative f/stops and focal lengths. Even though many current photographers never shot film, they are still dealing with choices designed around film.

The industry has been trying to address this. That's where crop factors come from. With the introduction of the digital SLR consumers could use the same lens on full frame DSLRs and small sensors DSLRs. Crop factors are an attempt to explain how the results differ with smaller sensors.

While crop factors are normally applied only to focal length, they also apply to f/stop.

Thus we are left with using equivalent focal length as a proxy for angle of view, and equivalent f/stop as a proxy for aperture diameter.

Yes, this isn't ideal, but it's the way it is.

This idea of using proxy values is not limited to photography. In the USA one can buy 15 Watt light bulbs that are marketed as 100W equivalent. Wattage is a measure of how much power the bulb uses, not how much light it uses. A 15W bulb only uses 15W. However, it produces the same amount of light as a traditional 100W incandescent bulb.

It's hard to find incandescent bulbs in my local store, but bulbs are still marketed with "equivalent wattage".

"Equivalent wattage" is not a measure of light output. "Equivalent focal length" is not a measure of focal length. We are probably stuck with both.
The thing is that Focal length is a lens characteristic so a 100mm lens is a 100mm lens what ever sensor one uses. Likewise Aperture Value (f/ number) is a lens characteristic that is used to compare lenses as much as to determine exposure.

Aperture diameter is more complex because what we. are actually talking about is Entrance Pupil Diameter, which isn't necessarily equal to or even related to any lens dimension. Since the entrance pupil and the focal length are lens characteristics, it follows that the f/ number is also a lens characteristic. After all it is simply the focal length divided by the entrance pupil diameter in mm.
Yes, it's actually entrance pupil diameter. This can be thought of as the virtual aperture diameter of an idealized simple lens. For a beginner I think this is a reasonable simplification.

We also tell beginners that you get the same exposure with any lens as long as the f/stop is the same. This isn't quite correct, as different lenses have different transmission characteristics. However, it's a reasonable simplification, and usually close enough, for a beginner.
The problem only arises if one wants to achieve the same angle of view, entrance pupil and depth of field on two different sized sensors. Thus for a full frame camera with a 120mm lens with a 30mm entrance pupil, f/4, With a cropped sensor of APS C size the same angle of view is achieved by an 80mm lens and an entrance pupil of 30mm gives f/2.6. If you want to call that equivalence so be it. However, what you have also done is to negate the benefits of the smaller sensor by requiring a physically bigger lens.
I use the term "equivalence" to refer to settings that produce the same result.

This happens when we have the same aperture diameter (AKA Entrance Pupil Diameter), same angle of view, and same shutter speed.

I don't think this negates the advantages of smaller sensors.

Consider a 50mm f/2 lens on a 2X crop body. It is physically smaller, and lighter than a 100mm f/4 lens on a full frame body. Yet they produce the same results.
Light output is somewhat different, incandescent bulbs were sold by power consumption, LED lamps are sold by brightness in Lumen. Thus, if you look on Amazon you'll get all sorts of equivalent wattages for a 50W GU10 lamp.
That's not my experience. I find that LED bulbs are sold by equivalent incandescent wattage. I just came back from home depot. On the package for a 1,600 Lumen bulb, the largest type reads "100W". The next largest type reads "A19", which is the form factor of the bulb. The output in Lumens, the actual wattage, and the fact that it is actually a "replacement" for a 100W incandescent is even smaller type.



Many people who are not technically inclined think that bulb brightness is measured in "Watts". The people who make bulbs know this, and that's why "100W" is the most prominent type on the package.





31795b68a8394c6aa0eb67993bbe8d1c.jpg
 
I don't think this negates the advantages of smaller sensors.
They have an advantage?
Yes. At the same aperture diameter, angle of view, and shutter speed, they give the same results as a full frame, while generally being lighter and less costly.

Crop bodies do have disadvantages. Generally, at any particular angle of view, you can get wider aperture diameters with a full frame. Therefore if you need very shallow depth of field (or the associated low light performance) you may be better off with a full frame.

As long as you don't need those very wide apertures, the crop body will give you the same results as a full frame.

Another disadvantage of a crop body, is that some manufacturers only put their high end features into full frame bodies. If you want those high end features, your choices might be limited to full frame.
Consider a 50mm f/2 lens on a 2X crop body. It is physically smaller, and lighter than a 100mm f/4 lens on a full frame body. Yet they produce the same results.
Which 100/4 FF lens do you have in mind?
I have a nifty-fifty Canon 50mm f/1.8 lens. It is smaller and lighter than any Canon 100mm lens I have found. To be fair I have not done an exhaustive search.
 
I don't think this negates the advantages of smaller sensors.
They have an advantage?
Yes. At the same aperture diameter, angle of view, and shutter speed, they give the same results as a full frame, while generally being lighter and less costly.
Unless they can’t. None of my 9 FF lenses have m43 equivalents, and two are f/4 zooms. Even at equivalent settings, larger formats resolve more.
Crop bodies do have disadvantages. Generally, at any particular angle of view, you can get wider aperture diameters with a full frame. Therefore if you need very shallow depth of field (or the associated low light performance) you may be better off with a full frame.
You think that f/4 zooms are needed for shallow DOF?
As long as you don't need those very wide apertures, the crop body will give you the same results as a full frame.
As long as I do not need FF, I can get away without FF.
Another disadvantage of a crop body, is that some manufacturers only put their high end features into full frame bodies. If you want those high end features, your choices might be limited to full frame.
Consider a 50mm f/2 lens on a 2X crop body. It is physically smaller, and lighter than a 100mm f/4 lens on a full frame body. Yet they produce the same results.
Which 100/4 FF lens do you have in mind?
I have a nifty-fifty Canon 50mm f/1.8 lens. It is smaller and lighter than any Canon 100mm lens I have found. To be fair I have not done an exhaustive search.
The slowest Canon FF prime is the 100 f/2.8 macro but it is macro. Nobody will buy it if it was not. 100/4 or slower primes do not exist.

When m43 can match FF, the lenses are not really lighter.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
It is a point of reference.
Yes. I am well aware. Nonetheless, everything I've said thus far has been my own opinion only. Some people think crop factors are an indispensable tool and I respect that view. Obviously the concept is well embedded in the industry's marketing materials. I just think it creates more confusion than clarity as evidenced by the never ending questions about it in this forum.
I disagree.

The confusion is caused by using terminology based on hitting a predetermined target exposure. This is critical when shooting film.

If you want to avoid confusion, we should be talking about angle of view, not focal length. If we want to avoid confusion we should be talking about aperture diameter, not the ratio of the focal length to the diameter.

.

Unfortunately, that change isn't going to happen anytime soon. We are stuck with a system where people use settings where the results differ with sensor size.

Equivalence is an attempt to reduce confusion by helping beginners understand that the results from f/8 or from 50mm can vary from camera to camera.

.

Personally, I think things would be clearer if we did use angle of view and aperture diameter. At the same shutter speed, aperture diameter, and angle of view, you get the same results from all cameras. That's far simpler than explaining that f/5.6 on your APS-C camera gives the same result as f/8 on a full frame, or f/4 on M43.
Photographers have been using f/ numbers for over 250 years, you're going to have some difficulty changing things now.
Yes. Film required an exposure centric workflow. The first step was to determine the desired exposure. You then load film designed for that exposure. The workflow is then built around hitting that target. Film photographers had it drilled into them that if they had to keep aperture and shutter balanced. Change one, and you had to make a corresponding change to the other.

Now we shoot digital, and we are no longer required to work that way. Under the hood, digital does not work the same as film. Unlike film, digital sensors have a wide range of exposures where they will produce good results. The concept of digital ISO-speed is a fabrication intended to ease the transition from film to digital (that's according to the spec itself).

With digital you can alter the aperture and leave the shutter unchanged. Auto-ISO handles maintaining constant image lightness.

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But old habits are hard to change. The industry standardized on relative f/stops and focal lengths. Even though many current photographers never shot film, they are still dealing with choices designed around film.

The industry has been trying to address this. That's where crop factors come from. With the introduction of the digital SLR consumers could use the same lens on full frame DSLRs and small sensors DSLRs. Crop factors are an attempt to explain how the results differ with smaller sensors.

While crop factors are normally applied only to focal length, they also apply to f/stop.

Thus we are left with using equivalent focal length as a proxy for angle of view, and equivalent f/stop as a proxy for aperture diameter.

Yes, this isn't ideal, but it's the way it is.

This idea of using proxy values is not limited to photography. In the USA one can buy 15 Watt light bulbs that are marketed as 100W equivalent. Wattage is a measure of how much power the bulb uses, not how much light it uses. A 15W bulb only uses 15W. However, it produces the same amount of light as a traditional 100W incandescent bulb.

It's hard to find incandescent bulbs in my local store, but bulbs are still marketed with "equivalent wattage".

"Equivalent wattage" is not a measure of light output. "Equivalent focal length" is not a measure of focal length. We are probably stuck with both.
The thing is that Focal length is a lens characteristic so a 100mm lens is a 100mm lens what ever sensor one uses. Likewise Aperture Value (f/ number) is a lens characteristic that is used to compare lenses as much as to determine exposure.

Aperture diameter is more complex because what we. are actually talking about is Entrance Pupil Diameter, which isn't necessarily equal to or even related to any lens dimension. Since the entrance pupil and the focal length are lens characteristics, it follows that the f/ number is also a lens characteristic. After all it is simply the focal length divided by the entrance pupil diameter in mm.
Yes, it's actually entrance pupil diameter. This can be thought of as the virtual aperture diameter of an idealized simple lens. For a beginner I think this is a reasonable simplification.

We also tell beginners that you get the same exposure with any lens as long as the f/stop is the same. This isn't quite correct, as different lenses have different transmission characteristics. However, it's a reasonable simplification, and usually close enough, for a beginner.
The problem only arises if one wants to achieve the same angle of view, entrance pupil and depth of field on two different sized sensors. Thus for a full frame camera with a 120mm lens with a 30mm entrance pupil, f/4, With a cropped sensor of APS C size the same angle of view is achieved by an 80mm lens and an entrance pupil of 30mm gives f/2.6. If you want to call that equivalence so be it. However, what you have also done is to negate the benefits of the smaller sensor by requiring a physically bigger lens.
I use the term "equivalence" to refer to settings that produce the same result.

This happens when we have the same aperture diameter (AKA Entrance Pupil Diameter), same angle of view, and same shutter speed.

I don't think this negates the advantages of smaller sensors.

Consider a 50mm f/2 lens on a 2X crop body. It is physically smaller, and lighter than a 100mm f/4 lens on a full frame body. Yet they produce the same results.
Light output is somewhat different, incandescent bulbs were sold by power consumption, LED lamps are sold by brightness in Lumen. Thus, if you look on Amazon you'll get all sorts of equivalent wattages for a 50W GU10 lamp.
That's not my experience. I find that LED bulbs are sold by equivalent incandescent wattage. I just came back from home depot. On the package for a 1,600 Lumen bulb, the largest type reads "100W". The next largest type reads "A19", which is the form factor of the bulb. The output in Lumens, the actual wattage, and the fact that it is actually a "replacement" for a 100W incandescent is even smaller type.

Many people who are not technically inclined think that bulb brightness is measured in "Watts". The people who make bulbs know this, and that's why "100W" is the most prominent type on the package.

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You're in the USA, in the UK packaging can be different but GU10 lamps are the ones that have a range of "equivalent" wattages for a 50W halogen lamp.
 
What's confusing is the gyrations we go through in order to have a film centric, exposure first, workflow.

If we start teaching workflows that are not required to be exposure first, things become much easier to understand.
Don't we have to attend to exposure if we want useable jpegs SOOC?

I'll admit I've done shots where I intentionally overexposed a stop or more, knowing I was going to pull it all down in post later (and not having highlights I cared about). But I wouldn't call that a typical situation.
 
What's confusing is the gyrations we go through in order to have a film centric, exposure first, workflow.

If we start teaching workflows that are not required to be exposure first, things become much easier to understand.
Don't we have to attend to exposure if we want useable jpegs SOOC?
It depends on what you mean by “attend to exposure”. With film, your exposure needs to match the ISO rating of the film. This enforces an exposure centric workflow.

With digital the ISO setting of the camera needs to match the exposure. You can set the camera to Auto-ISO, and this frees you from worrying about maintaining a particular target exposure.

With film, if you use a two stop faster shutter speed to stop action, you need to open up the aperture by two stops. With digital, you can leave the aperture where it is. You can use Auto-ISO or just increase the ISO setting by two stops.

With digital you can have different exposures in every frame.

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Some people say a dark JPEG means it was underexposed. I say the exposure may have been perfect, but the ISO was set too low.

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Keep in mind that back in the days of negative film, under or over exposure had little to do with how dark or light the print looked. An overexposed negative was too thick, and underexposed meant the negative was too thin. Either could be printed dark, light, or normal.

I'll admit I've done shots where I intentionally overexposed a stop or more, knowing I was going to pull it all down in post later (and not having highlights I cared about). But I wouldn't call that a typical situation.
In terms of maximizing image quality, the exposure that yields the highest quality for a digital camera is often not the same as the exposure that maximizes image quality for film.
 
What's confusing is the gyrations we go through in order to have a film centric, exposure first, workflow.

If we start teaching workflows that are not required to be exposure first, things become much easier to understand.
Don't we have to attend to exposure if we want useable jpegs SOOC?
It depends on what you mean by “attend to exposure”. With film, your exposure needs to match the ISO rating of the film. This enforces an exposure centric workflow.
If you Google "exposure centric workflow", the search returns hits only from dpreview. Posts started by the same user. No one else knows what this is or calls it that.

There is nothing wrong with trying to hit a target exposure on digital. Most common example is ETTR. People often say "I would not go above ISO6400 on APS-C" which translates into "I have decided on the minimum amount of light that would produce an acceptable in-camera JPEG". It doesn't matter in what order camera settings are set. ISO first, ISO last or ISO somewhere in between.
With digital the ISO setting of the camera needs to match the exposure.
If you shoot JPEG. For raw the connection is rather loose.
You can set the camera to Auto-ISO, and this frees you from worrying about maintaining a particular target exposure.
I hear "frees you from worrying about image quality". It doesn't though, because you would limit ISO to ISO6400 or other value that you find acceptable.
With film, if you use a two stop faster shutter speed to stop action, you need to open up the aperture by two stops. With digital, you can leave the aperture where it is. You can use Auto-ISO or just increase the ISO setting by two stops.
Why mention film to a beginner in 2025?
With digital you can have different exposures in every frame.
In fact, exposure across every frame will also be different. There will be shadows and highlights. Some pixels will receive 100 times more light than others. No one seems to be talking about this. Everyone is photographing grey cards filling the whole image.
Some people say a dark JPEG means it was underexposed. I say the exposure may have been perfect, but the ISO was set too low.
I am not sure what "perfect exposure" is. I am guessing you define it as "if I were to shoot this again, I would use the same f-stop and the same shutter speed again", or at least this is how I would define "optimal camera settings". It sounds like the ISO setting was too low for the in-camera JPEG but this is likely to be a non-issue (or even have benefits like preserved highlights) for the raw file.
 
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What's confusing is the gyrations we go through in order to have a film centric, exposure first, workflow.

If we start teaching workflows that are not required to be exposure first, things become much easier to understand.
Don't we have to attend to exposure if we want useable jpegs SOOC?
It depends on what you mean by “attend to exposure”. With film, your exposure needs to match the ISO rating of the film. This enforces an exposure centric workflow.
If you Google "exposure centric workflow", the search returns hits only from dpreview. Posts started by the same user. No one else knows what this is or calls it that.
Yes, it's so ingrained in the way people think, that they don't have a name for it.

There is nothing wrong with trying to hit a target exposure on digital. Most common example is ETTR. People often say "I would not go above ISO6400 on APS-C" which translates into "I have decided on the minimum amount of light that would produce an acceptable in-camera JPEG". It doesn't matter in what order camera settings are set. ISO first, ISO last or ISO somewhere in between.
Yes, there is nothing wrong with trying to hit a particular target exposure with digital. However, unlike with film, there is no requirement that you do so.

For instance, with film a beginner is taught to adjust both shutter and aperture together to maintain the film's target exposure. With digital there is no requirement to do so. You can adjust one, without making a compensating adjustment in the other. Therefore, there is no need to start a beginner by teaching him how to maintain a particular exposure (unless you are teaching him with a film camera).

With digital the ISO setting of the camera needs to match the exposure.
If you shoot JPEG. For raw the connection is rather loose.
There can still be a connection, as many cameras customize their processing based on the ISO setting. If the ISO is too high for the exposure, the data values in the raw file may end up maxed out.

You can set the camera to Auto-ISO, and this frees you from worrying about maintaining a particular target exposure.
I hear "frees you from worrying about image quality". It doesn't though, because you would limit ISO to ISO6400 or other value that you find acceptable.
Depth of field, and motion blur also play a role in image quality. With digital there is no need to treat image noise as a separate, more important, issue.
With film, if you use a two stop faster shutter speed to stop action, you need to open up the aperture by two stops. With digital, you can leave the aperture where it is. You can use Auto-ISO or just increase the ISO setting by two stops.
Why mention film to a beginner in 2025?
That's my point, there is no need to start a beginner by teaching him how to maintain a target exposure. That skill is needed by a film beginner, but not a digital beginner.
With digital you can have different exposures in every frame.
In fact, exposure across every frame will also be different. There will be shadows and highlights. Some pixels will receive 100 times more light than others. No one seems to be talking about this. Everyone is photographing grey cards filling the whole image.
Very true. But with a beginner we tend to start by talking about the overall exposure.
Some people say a dark JPEG means it was underexposed. I say the exposure may have been perfect, but the ISO was set too low.
I am not sure what "perfect exposure" is. I am guessing you define it as "if I were to shoot this again, I would use the same f-stop and the same shutter speed again", or at least this is how I would define "optimal camera settings". It sounds like the ISO setting was too low for the in-camera JPEG but this is likely to be a non-issue (or even have benefits like preserved highlights) for the raw file.
My point was that many beginners are taught that a dark JPEG is the result of an exposure that is too low ("under exposure"). This gives them the idea that the exposure was "wrong", and the exposure should be changed in order to fix the issue. My point is that dark JPEGs are the result of a mismatch between exposure and ISO setting. It's quite possible that the best solution is to leave the exposure unchanged, and to raise the ISO.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
A guy buys a Fuji X10 compact with a 2/3" sensor, hears "f/8 and be there", sets his f-stop to f/8 and proceeds using it for pretty much everything wondering why the images are not very sharp. When explained that it is "f/2 and be there" for his sensor, scratches his head in disbelief. True story.
My advice would have been to try all the aperture settings to see how they in turn affect the image. Then choose the one that achieves the desired result. No conversion maths needed.
I think the new guy with the Fuji would have appreciated it if someone had told him, up front: "many rules of thumb you hear apply to full frame cameras. Your camera has a different sensor size, so yr AOV, DOF, and diffraction are affected like so....". If a guy never heard of diffraction, he won't even know what to look for while trying every aperture setting.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
A guy buys a Fuji X10 compact with a 2/3" sensor, hears "f/8 and be there", sets his f-stop to f/8 and proceeds using it for pretty much everything wondering why the images are not very sharp. When explained that it is "f/2 and be there" for his sensor, scratches his head in disbelief. True story.
My advice would have been to try all the aperture settings to see how they in turn affect the image. Then choose the one that achieves the desired result. No conversion maths needed.
I think the new guy with the Fuji would have appreciated it if someone had told him, up front: "many rules of thumb you hear apply to full frame cameras. Your camera has a different sensor size, so yr AOV, DOF, and diffraction are affected like so....". If a guy never heard of diffraction, he won't even know what to look for while trying every aperture setting.
Bear in mind that cameras with small sensors usually only have a limited range of available aperture settings.

For example, my Panasonic FZ20 had a 1/2.5” sensor (5.7mm x 4.3mm), with aperture range f/2.8 to f/8, and I can’t remember ever using anything other than f/2.8.
 
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I see we lost the OP a couple of weeks ago.

The discussion has become far too in-depth for a beginner, I also think we have failed to answer the original question.

The take-aways should be:

Focal length
  • is a lens characteristic
  • has nothing to do with sensor size
  • is absolute
Aperture
  • f/ number is a lens characteristic but is NOT the aperture
  • f/ number is the relationship between focal length and entrance pupil diameter
  • f/number is aperture value
  • actual aperture is the entrance pupil diameter
I'm sure I have forgotten quite a lot but the "equivalent to..." banded about by camera manufacturers doesn't help.
 

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